Al Jazeera investigation into doping (NFL, Manning etc.)

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Doping in other sports?

What to make of the inside source, Charles Sly, now recanting his statements?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf2-8V0K3oM

To be clear, I am recanting any such statements and there is no truth to any statement of mine that Al Jazeera plans to air.

Threats? Money? Other?

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Doping in other sports?

What to make of the inside source, Charles Sly, now recanting his statements?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf2-8V0K3oM

To be clear, I am recanting any such statements and there is no truth to any statement of mine that Al Jazeera plans to air.

Threats? Money? Other?

Probably a little bit of both, and then some other extra curricular, backdoor dealings.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Doping in other sports?

Pretty simple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ7O9NFKEfY

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Doping in other sports?

Some more links related to the one I just posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PlvvsPmUJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJv4B_D1GqA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBf3xU6bGHs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJe_sDG5UjE

 

[The Hitch]

Bull, my friend. Do you believe Warren, Chuck, Simms and the Bengals wr, forget his name, when they say they never took drugs and that only a minority do it?

 

[arcus]

I expected Charlie Sly to recant his statements.

The original allegations were made during a private conversation (taped without his knowledge), and he had reason to trust (and perhaps confide in) Liam Collins, whom he perceived as a doping client and potential future associate. He would never have made those statements on-record, regardless of their veracity. True or not, I believe he was incentivized to retract them.

If he was originally telling the truth, then he inadvertently dropped his major clients right in it, and might be feeling pressurized to take the fall. In this scenario, who can say if said pressure would be internal or external.

If he was lying (to persuade Collins he was a real player in the doping world), than he has probably been thinking about the risks of a defamation law suit. His exposure, in this regard, might be limited if all that's on the table is a private conversation and no perceived personal intent to "publish". Recanting mitigates this risk.

He (and his associates) struck me as well-informed from a pharmacologic perspective, there was a pro-athlete unwittingly filmed in the documentary, apparently admitting use and association. Also, they did secure drugs for Collins. I would have liked to see the drugs independently tested for authenticity but, on balance, I'm inclined towards belief rather than skepticism.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Doping in other sports?

Pretty simple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ7O9NFKEfY

I was going to post that earlier but I waited in case the mods moved the Manning stuff into its own thread.

That really is a stunning presentation.

There are few things that I find particularly noteworthy, and rather amazing on their own.

1) That video was posted over two years ago and somehow went relatively unnoticed.

2) It was brought to most people's attention only two days ago when it was tweeted by
Richard Ings
‏@ringsau
https://twitter.com/ringsau/status/681223259438714880

3) There are, as of this moment, only five comments, and a little over 8,000 views (a few hours ago it was only 7,000)

Given the size of the NFL viewing audience, that it only a drop in the bucket of people seeing this, even though it was presented officially by Fox Sports.

Even stranger, is the fact that they provide a detailed list of ingredients in the ticker line.

Core Rejuvination ingredients:
Thiamine, Ribaflavin, Vitamin B12, Pyridoxine, Dexpanathenol, Ascorbic Acid, BCAA's, Zinc, Magnesium, B Complex Vitamins.

It's not difficult to imagine the impression that such a video will leave with a young, aspiring teenaged athlete. Nice of them to provide a basic "How To," even if these specific ingredients aren't scandalous when viewed on their own. What the hell kind of message does this send though?

Then this bit. It's right out of the US Postal manual.

This is "outside" medicine here, so the team does not monitor this. But the team will not administer this as well. So, we have nurses that meet us in every city, or even for home games they meet us in our hotels before games. And typically if we don't do this at a player's house, we'll rent a hotel room and everybody will come line up, you have five, six, seven, eight guys line up on any given day for the recovery and the pre-game cocktails.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re: Doping in other sports?

What to make of the inside source, Charles Sly, now recanting his statements?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf2-8V0K3oM

To be clear, I am recanting any such statements and there is no truth to any statement of mine that Al Jazeera plans to air.

Threats? Money? Other?

What to make of it?

Id guess that he realizes that he just sank his business, ruined his professional reputation, and exposed himself to serious legal consequences for his actions.

I would also guess that a good portion of what he was saying in the video was true and accurate- though likely embellished to bolster his bona fides.

I have personally known NFL players (in the 1990's-2000's) that were using all manner of anabolics as well as HGH, so this story seems not only plausible, but very likely.

And remember...most people start telling the truth when there are REAL legal consequences. Lets see what this guy says when he is in front of a GJ.

 

[thehog]

Re: Doping in other sports?

What to make of the inside source, Charles Sly, now recanting his statements?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf2-8V0K3oM

To be clear, I am recanting any such statements and there is no truth to any statement of mine that Al Jazeera plans to air.

Threats? Money? Other?

What to make of it?

I'd guess that he realizes that he just sank his business, ruined his professional reputation, and exposed himself to serious legal consequences for his actions.

Exactly.

99.99% of his payroll just walked after the documentary aired. The key to this business is confidentially, what is it with these guys and big mouthing their businesses? Gordon Liddy played this card 35 years ago...

 

[arcus]

In that 'IV infusion' video, the notable thing for me (and the only technically 'illegal' aspect) is that the volume of infused fluid exceeds the allowed 50ml limit.

That said, I understand why people are getting hot-under-the-collar about it, since appears to normalize the culture of scientifically-enhancing athletes with IV medications.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

In that 'IV infusion' video, the notable thing for me (and the only technically 'illegal' aspect) is that the volume of infused fluid exceeds the allowed 50ml limit.

Could you expand upon that a bit? Which limit is that, and who is it that allows or disallows it?

That said, I understand why people are getting hot-under-the-collar about it, since appears to normalize the culture of scientifically-enhancing athletes with IV medications.

The matter-of-factness of it is eye-opening. Then contrast that with general surprise and wonder displayed by one of the Fox sportscasters in one of those other links, and it's clear just how much of a chasm exists between those two worlds of locker room athletes (or hotel rooms, as it were), and the people whose full time job it is to report on them. These are commonplace actions being taken, and yet it's still a surprise to people who cover the sport on a daily basis.

Just imagine what goes on that they don't want anyone to know about.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Bull, my friend. Do you believe Warren, Chuck, Simms and the Bengals wr, forget his name, when they say they never took drugs and that only a minority do it?

No. Quite frankly, it would take a brave soul to come forward and spill the beans on either the NFL the NBA or any other professional sport. Even if someone as big as MJ or Bird in the NBA and Montana and Brady in the NFL came out and admitted to taking PED's, what would happen? Do you see them getting busted? I don't. These guys are revered by the American public (well, certainly by the fans of their teams) and too much money has been made through their playing days and afterwards as well. Brady obviously still playing, though probably not much longer. These aren't fringe sports, these are billion+ dollar industries we are talking about here. It would take something astronomical to bring the system down.

Another key example (IMO), look at the 2008 Tim Donaghy NBA betting scandal. Guy came out and said he bet on NBA games, made money, working with the mob, then pretty specifically named NBA games that were 'rigged' and who the officials that were complicit. He was quickly silenced, called a criminal (that part was true, he did bet on games and more), spent some time in jail, obviously never refereed another game, nobody else was penalized, no serious investigation of the officials, commissioner, betting companies, other NBA officials, etc. Nothing ever came out of it, except that Donaghy was busted.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/22/ex-nba-ref-tim-donaghy-organized-will-always-have-a-hand-in-sports

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_betting_scandal

Game 6 of the 2002 western conference finals has been one of the most talked about games over the past decade+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRcTiwVEwo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw9g1efbNs

And I am a basketball fan myself. Don't need to go into details, you can tell by my username.


Ps. Mods, if you feel this has nothing to do with the topic, then do what you wish with my comment.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Bull, my friend. Do you believe Warren, Chuck, Simms and the Bengals wr, forget his name, when they say they never took drugs and that only a minority do it?

No. Quite frankly, it would take a brave soul to come forward and spill the beans on either the NFL the NBA or any other professional sport. Even if someone as big as MJ or Bird in the NBA and Montana and Brady in the NFL came out and admitted to taking PED's, what would happen? Do you see them getting busted? I don't. These guys are revered by the American public (well, certainly by the fans of their teams) and too much money has been made through their playing days and afterwards as well. Brady obviously still playing, though probably not much longer. These aren't fringe sports, these are billion+ dollar industries we are talking about here. It would take something astronomical to bring the system down.

Another key example (IMO), look at the 2008 Tim Donaghy NBA betting scandal. Guy came out and said he bet on NBA games, made money, working with the mob, then pretty specifically named NBA games that were 'rigged' and who the officials that were complicit. He was quickly silenced, called a criminal (that part was true, he did bet on games and more), spent some time in jail, obviously never refereed another game, nobody else was penalized, no serious investigation of the officials, commissioner, betting companies, other NBA officials, etc. Nothing ever came out of it, except that Donaghy was busted.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/22/ex-nba-ref-tim-donaghy-organized-will-always-have-a-hand-in-sports

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_betting_scandal

Game 6 of the 2002 western conference finals has been one of the most talked about games over the past decade+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRcTiwVEwo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw9g1efbNs

And I am a basketball fan myself. Don't need to go into details, you can tell by my username.


Ps. Mods, if you feel this has nothing to do with the topic, then do what you wish with my comment.

The reason I asked is because you linked the Inside the NFL steroids discussion video, as one of your interesting videos.

I thought it was omerta. All the guys talking about how it its cheating, they hate the guys who do it, it doesn't help if you are already "great".

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Bull, my friend. Do you believe Warren, Chuck, Simms and the Bengals wr, forget his name, when they say they never took drugs and that only a minority do it?

No. Quite frankly, it would take a brave soul to come forward and spill the beans on either the NFL the NBA or any other professional sport. Even if someone as big as MJ or Bird in the NBA and Montana and Brady in the NFL came out and admitted to taking PED's, what would happen? Do you see them getting busted? I don't. These guys are revered by the American public (well, certainly by the fans of their teams) and too much money has been made through their playing days and afterwards as well. Brady obviously still playing, though probably not much longer. These aren't fringe sports, these are billion+ dollar industries we are talking about here. It would take something astronomical to bring the system down.

Another key example (IMO), look at the 2008 Tim Donaghy NBA betting scandal. Guy came out and said he bet on NBA games, made money, working with the mob, then pretty specifically named NBA games that were 'rigged' and who the officials that were complicit. He was quickly silenced, called a criminal (that part was true, he did bet on games and more), spent some time in jail, obviously never refereed another game, nobody else was penalized, no serious investigation of the officials, commissioner, betting companies, other NBA officials, etc. Nothing ever came out of it, except that Donaghy was busted.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/22/ex-nba-ref-tim-donaghy-organized-will-always-have-a-hand-in-sports

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_betting_scandal

Game 6 of the 2002 western conference finals has been one of the most talked about games over the past decade+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRcTiwVEwo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw9g1efbNs

And I am a basketball fan myself. Don't need to go into details, you can tell by my username.


Ps. Mods, if you feel this has nothing to do with the topic, then do what you wish with my comment.

The reason I asked is because you linked the Inside the NFL steroids discussion video, as one of your interesting videos.

I thought it was omerta. All the guys talking about how it its cheating, they hate the guys who do it, it doesn't help if you are already "great".

I agree completely. It was just to show what some of the athletes thought of PED's. No denying the Omertà. Cycling all over again.

 

[arcus]

Re: Re:

In that 'IV infusion' video, the notable thing for me (and the only technically 'illegal' aspect) is that the volume of infused fluid exceeds the allowed 50ml limit.

Could you expand upon that a bit? Which limit is that, and who is it that allows or disallows it?

I realize that the NFL are not signatories to the WADA code, but WADA have been advising them about anti-doping.

WADA and USADA view an intravenous infusion >50mls in a 6 hr period as a prohibited method. Section M2 page 5.
https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada-2016-prohibited-list-en.pdf

The NFL policy is here, and there appears to be no mention of prohibited methods (as opposed to substances). That does not reassure me. This is an organization that banned HGH and didn't test for it for many years.

https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/Player%20Planner/2014%20NFL%20List%20of%20Prohibited%20Substances.pdf

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Re:

Another key example (IMO), look at the 2008 Tim Donaghy NBA betting scandal

That was one story that must've been the NBA's worst nightmare come true (as far as it being exposed). You would've thought that something like that would've been devastating to the league. And yet, as you stated, they just easily swept it under the rug.

Rogue officially
One bad apple
Etc

It should've been a massive wake up call, but instead it simply faded into the background. Many people probably aren't willing face the true implications of that story. But if a scandal like that didn't sink the league, or see a major investigation on the scale of what recently transpired with Russia, then nothing will. The NBA, NFL and MLB are virtually untouchable. They make the rules, and do with them as they like. Period.

 

[Billie]

HGH should be allowed in the NFL anyway. Giving players HGH to recover is a 1000 times better than all the painkillers and stuff they use now to play through injuries

 

[arcus]

Re:

HGH should be allowed in the NFL anyway. Giving players HGH to recover is a 1000 times better than all the painkillers and stuff they use now to play through injuries

Thin-end of the wedge.
Allow this and you have to allow any PED perceived as 'accelerating recovery', including anabolic steroids. Not workable, IMO.

 

[Pazuzu]

Re: Doping in other sports?

And remember...most people start telling the truth when there are REAL legal consequences. Lets see what this guy says when he is in front of a GJ.

I love to see that happen. But is there much chance of that? Who'd bring the charges and for what? USADA doesn't have the power to compel testimony under oath, and the Feds have lost the stomach for pursuing professional athletes for doping.

It it realistic to expect that any of the participants will be made to testify under oath? Is Peyton Manning stupid enough to sue for defamation and create an opportunity for discovery?

HGH should be allowed in the NFL anyway. Giving players HGH to recover is a 1000 times better than all the painkillers and stuff they use now to play through injuries

There are two problems: 1) we don't know the long term effects of HGH use among adults, 2) part of the concussion problem is due to players getting too big and strong from PEDs. If the league were to sanctions PED use they'd open themselves up to future liability for not protecting players' long term health. Look at how much trouble they're in for not doing enough to protect players from concussions.

 

[arcus]

^
USADA has no jurisdiction over the NFL (no Olympic participation), so they are not even part of the equation.
http://www.usada.org/resources/faq/

Point well-taken about uncertainty re: long term safety of hGH and/or other PEDs (alone and in combination). Zero quality data, and very scary, IMO.

 

[Merckx index]

A GH researcher argues that this substance wouldn't have helped Manning recover:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/on-manning-controversy--expert-says---it-wouldn-t-make-sense--to-use-hgh-in-recovery-234910370.html

The injury made Manning too weak to throw a football with his usual velocity, so it would seem that any added strength would help him recover. But Mendias says the muscles around the impacted nerves would restore themselves soon after the nerve did – without anything performance-enhancing.

"It's the nerve causing the weakness," he says. "Not the muscle itself."

"Growth hormone is reported to be extensively used for illicit enhancement of athletic performance, both for its anabolic and endurance effects," wrote the authors. "However, our review of the limited published literature suggests that although growth hormone may alter body composition, it has minimal effect on key athletic performance outcomes and may, in fact, be associated with worsened exercise capacity."

This calls to mind all the people arguing that testosterone wouldn't have helped Floyd. If HGH isn't performance-enhancing, why do athletes use it, and why is it banned?

The same researcher who questions the usefulness of HGH also says the same thing about the legal treatments Manning made use of:

It's not even clear that Manning's visits to the Guyer Institute helped; Mendias says a lot of the treatments athletes use for recovery might be restorative only as a placebo effect. The athlete thinks it's helping, and so physiologically, it does just that.

Here is an article that, based on a literature search, concluded that HGH does not enhance athletic performance, though it may increase lean muscle mass. Some have speculated that the latter comes about through greater water retention, and thus there is no increase in strength. However, I think it's fair to say there aren't enough well-designed studies to make a firm conclusion.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=741027

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

This calls to mind all the people arguing that testosterone wouldn't have helped Floyd. If HGH isn't performance-enhancing, why do athletes use it, and why is it banned?

Actual ergogenic effectiveness isn't the only a reason substances or methods may be prohibited, and neither is it necessary for someone to believe it is effective.

People take crap all the time believing them to provide all sorts of benefit, when in fact it's quite likely to be far from the case. The entire supplements industry is built on self-deluded belief, as are most of the (real) pseudosciences like homeopathy.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

People take crap all the time believing them to provide all sorts of benefit, when in fact it's quite likely to be far from the case. The entire supplements industry is built on self-deluded belief, as are most of the (real) pseudosciences like homeopathy.

Oh, I understand that. Russell Wilson and Tom Brady have both recently been in the news for their support of highly dubious treatments. But in the first place, you can’t use the argument that HGH isn’t performance enhancing to exonerate an athlete. The link I posted didn't say so in so many words, but implied that the fact that HGH might be ineffective is a reason for believing Manning wouldn't take it.

In the second place, pro athletes are not in the same class as the general public. Non-athletes may fool themselves into believing that they feel better, but modern athletes live and die by performance that can be quantitated. If certain substances and treatments don’t help, I’d expect that eventually word would get around, and they’d stop using them. If HGH really is ineffective, maybe there hasn’t been enough time and experience for this to be appreciated. Or maybe it has other effects that haven’t been studied.

Look at practices like altitude training, hypobaric tents, or beetroot juice, for example. Some studies have shown that all of these practices or treatments may enhance performance to some extent, and they are generally permitted, at least in some places,but I'm not aware that large numbers of athletes use them. Some, yes, but not most. Why not? Surely because they don't seem to help that much, at least not for most athletes.

And finally, the question why HGH is banned is still relevant. There are lots of bogus treatments that aren't banned, because WADA has no evidence that they're performance enhancing. Why has HGH been banned? Why all the time, money and effort put into developing a test for it? Don't tell me it's just because WADA is concerned for the health and safety of its athletes. It's because they think it might help performance.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

In the second place, pro athletes are not in the same class as the general public. Non-athletes may fool themselves into believing that they feel better, but modern athletes live and die by performance that can be quantitated. If certain substances and treatments don’t help, I’d expect that eventually word would get around, and they’d stop using them. If HGH really is ineffective, maybe there hasn’t been enough time and experience for this to be appreciated. Or maybe it has other effects that haven’t been studied.

Look at practices like altitude training, hypobaric tents, or beetroot juice, for example. Some studies have shown that all of these practices or treatments may enhance performance to some extent, and they are generally permitted, at least in some places,but I'm not aware that large numbers of athletes use them. Some, yes, but not most. Why not? Surely because they don't seem to help that much, at least not for most athletes.

I think you give all elite level athlete's too much credit for consistent logical intelligent rationale thought. Many are as just susceptible to doing dumb *** as is Joe Public and many are also just as inertia laden when it comes to integrating ethical things that have good evidence of efficacy.

And finally, the question why HGH is banned is still relevant. There are lots of bogus treatments that aren't banned, because WADA has no evidence that they're performance enhancing. Why has HGH been banned? Why all the time, money and effort put into developing a test for it? Don't tell me it's just because WADA is concerned for the health and safety of its athletes. It's because they think it might help performance.

Well the WADA guidelines explain the rationale for what is included on the prohibited list. If you don't believe WADA actually applies its published rationale when making such decisions then that's another matter. I think inappropriate use of HGH for conditions it is clearly not intended for, clearly violates both the health and spirit of sport criteria, even if evidence of its ergogenic effect is ultimately equivocal.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re: Re:

Oh, I understand that. Russell Wilson and Tom Brady have both recently been in the news for their support of highly dubious treatments. But in the first place, you can’t use the argument that HGH isn’t performance enhancing to exonerate an athlete. The link I posted didn't say so in so many words, but implied that the fact that HGH might be ineffective is a reason for believing Manning wouldn't take it.

I agree, that's not a valid argument.

All that matters is whether someone has committed an anti-doping rule violation.

Of course in Manning's case, the code is not WADA's but presumably the NFL's own version.