Hmm I hadn't even thought about it that wayCarols said:
Tinkov did say many of the guys on the Giro team would ride the Tour: Mick, Roman.... Ivan??
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Tinkov did say many of the guys on the Giro team would ride the Tour: Mick, Roman.... Ivan??
LaFlorecita said:Hmm I hadn't even thought about it that wayCarols said:
I've even heard something about that even Sagan was not sure not make the team. Same with Bodnar. They are destroying their hopes of a good TT, better ride on the cobbles and action in the crosswind for a team with fossils like Basso and Paulinho who can't even climb anymore.
LaFlorecita said:Hmm I hadn't even thought about it that wayCarols said:
Maybe these guys trained like Contador, to peak in TdF. I mean Rogers was nowhere to be seen until Giro where he was briefly with his captain before disappearing in the back, Basso was known as Bertie's roommate and Kreu, apart from scaring everybody in stage 4 to La Spezia was a shadow of former self. (One of) the secrets to Astana's dominance was the fact that all the team trained to peak for the Giro. Nibali's team trained separately to peak for Le Tour.
Re: Re:
Holy crap, thats the most subjective article I have ever read in my life (and I read quite a bit). Absolutely 0 facts, 0 numbers, just an opinion of an author, and somehow you are using it here as an argument? Because you found one guy who agrees with your opinion and made uninformative blog post about it? You cant be serious?
And btw, I dont know what you have to be on to say Majka is anywhere close to Nibali and I am biggest Rafal's fanboy there is. I think Rafal will be in top 5-8 climbers in the Tour but 2 levels below Nibali
Netserk said:
Holy crap, thats the most subjective article I have ever read in my life (and I read quite a bit). Absolutely 0 facts, 0 numbers, just an opinion of an author, and somehow you are using it here as an argument? Because you found one guy who agrees with your opinion and made uninformative blog post about it? You cant be serious?
And btw, I dont know what you have to be on to say Majka is anywhere close to Nibali and I am biggest Rafal's fanboy there is. I think Rafal will be in top 5-8 climbers in the Tour but 2 levels below Nibali
Re: Re:
It's a question of how we define "a level" apparently, because i said that Majka was a half level below Nibali and Quintana in climbing which means that he'll be there when they are 6-7 riders left on a MTF. I guess we all agree on that.
Whether we say one or two level below it's irrelevant, because it's subjective on how we define a level. Top5-8 climber in the Tour.
damian13ster said:
It's a question of how we define "a level" apparently, because i said that Majka was a half level below Nibali and Quintana in climbing which means that he'll be there when they are 6-7 riders left on a MTF. I guess we all agree on that.
Whether we say one or two level below it's irrelevant, because it's subjective on how we define a level. Top5-8 climber in the Tour.
Re: Re:
0 facts, 0 numbers? Are you *** serious? Contador demonstrated throughout 2014 he was the best climber, there's just no arguing here.
damian13ster said:
0 facts, 0 numbers? Are you *** serious? Contador demonstrated throughout 2014 he was the best climber, there's just no arguing here.
Re:
Lol, this guy.
Just in case some people don't understand what he is talking about, recent years = 2013. That's how serious sam is programmed. Last 50 years hierarchy is determined by 2013.
SeriousSam said:
Lol, this guy.
Just in case some people don't understand what he is talking about, recent years = 2013. That's how serious sam is programmed. Last 50 years hierarchy is determined by 2013.
Re: Re:
I'm sure you've seen those (duration, w/kg) curves that were posted in the clinic, estimated using Nibali's and Froome's Tours. They looked pretty similar, and that's what I was thinking of when I said they did the best climbing performances. Was something similar done for the Vuelta? Horner and Contador might be up there too.
Netserk said:
I'm sure you've seen those (duration, w/kg) curves that were posted in the clinic, estimated using Nibali's and Froome's Tours. They looked pretty similar, and that's what I was thinking of when I said they did the best climbing performances. Was something similar done for the Vuelta? Horner and Contador might be up there too.
Re: Re:
Using yourself as a person to help you enforce your argument is a fallacy
damian13ster said:
Using yourself as a person to help you enforce your argument is a fallacy
Nibali was definitely not the strongest in 2014. Come on, he was not even close to Contador who were superior for most of the spring season and in the Dauphiné. Contador would have beaten him in all of the mountain stages. I mean, Peraud was even able to hang on to him in two of the hardest stages.
Froome is always a big question mark, but I think he would have been stronger too. He had a good but extremely inconsistent season. He is always yo-yoing.
Nibali is a great all-rounder, no doubt about that. But nowhere in his career, he has been a better climber than Alberto. From 2010 to now. Only in 2013 and perhaps this year, Contador has not been the best climber of the year. He was banned in late 2011 and early 2012, but in the Giro of 2011 and Vuelta of 2012 he was by far the strongest.
Froome is always a big question mark, but I think he would have been stronger too. He had a good but extremely inconsistent season. He is always yo-yoing.
Nibali is a great all-rounder, no doubt about that. But nowhere in his career, he has been a better climber than Alberto. From 2010 to now. Only in 2013 and perhaps this year, Contador has not been the best climber of the year. He was banned in late 2011 and early 2012, but in the Giro of 2011 and Vuelta of 2012 he was by far the strongest.
Re:
Good post. Just forgot to mention the Vuelta 14' where he was the best climber as well. And the field was complete. Easily matched the one of the Tour 13', just missed Quintana but given AC's level, he was not gonna lose that either way.
Maybe not in the Vuelta 12', but he was up there with super peak Purito, despite not an ideal preparation due to crucial lack of prep races.
WheelofGear said:
Good post. Just forgot to mention the Vuelta 14' where he was the best climber as well. And the field was complete. Easily matched the one of the Tour 13', just missed Quintana but given AC's level, he was not gonna lose that either way.
Maybe not in the Vuelta 12', but he was up there with super peak Purito, despite not an ideal preparation due to crucial lack of prep races.
Yep, and the riders below Nibali rode for secondary positions and podium spots. In most of the stages, they allowed Nibali to ride away without even responding. For them, it was all about getting 2nd or 3rd in the GC.
Re:
Nibali had a higher average w/kg on the decisive climbs than Froome did in the TdF 2013 (5.99-6.05 vs. 5.96 from what I have seen), and they both went quite hard until they had a massive advantage. Remember that Contador was dropped hard by such numbers in 2013. He was, admittedly, a lot stronger in 2014, but it is by no means a given that he "would have beaten him in all of the mountain stages". Not to mention that Nibali's w/kg numbers were significantly higher in the TdF '14 than Contador's Giro '15 numbers.
If we look at the TdF '14 and Vuelta '14, Contador produced higher w/kg on short climbs, whereas Nibali was at least as strong on the 30-50 minutes long climbs in terms of w/kg.
(http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/vuelta-a-espana-climbing-speeds-how-should-we-interpret-the-data/ - I found my graphs here)
Also, he was the smartest GC-rider at the Vuelta in '12, but he was seldomly the strongest. He even said so himself in interviews after the race. Purito and Valverde were definitely on his level (and slightly above at times).
It is not to say that Alberto is not a great athlete; I just think that Nibali gets way too little credit for his TdF-win. It is not his fault that Froome and Contador crashed out, and his climbing performances are up there with the best the last five years (in terms of w/kg, although I know very well that these numbers do not tell all there is to tell).
WheelofGear said:
Nibali had a higher average w/kg on the decisive climbs than Froome did in the TdF 2013 (5.99-6.05 vs. 5.96 from what I have seen), and they both went quite hard until they had a massive advantage. Remember that Contador was dropped hard by such numbers in 2013. He was, admittedly, a lot stronger in 2014, but it is by no means a given that he "would have beaten him in all of the mountain stages". Not to mention that Nibali's w/kg numbers were significantly higher in the TdF '14 than Contador's Giro '15 numbers.
If we look at the TdF '14 and Vuelta '14, Contador produced higher w/kg on short climbs, whereas Nibali was at least as strong on the 30-50 minutes long climbs in terms of w/kg.
(http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/vuelta-a-espana-climbing-speeds-how-should-we-interpret-the-data/ - I found my graphs here)
Also, he was the smartest GC-rider at the Vuelta in '12, but he was seldomly the strongest. He even said so himself in interviews after the race. Purito and Valverde were definitely on his level (and slightly above at times).
It is not to say that Alberto is not a great athlete; I just think that Nibali gets way too little credit for his TdF-win. It is not his fault that Froome and Contador crashed out, and his climbing performances are up there with the best the last five years (in terms of w/kg, although I know very well that these numbers do not tell all there is to tell).
Re: Re:
According to Froome, before the 2014 Tour he was climbing even better than he was in 2013. AC had no problem climbing with Froome in 2014. So, the numbers that AC and Froome were putting out before the 2014 Tour were greater than those of 2013; you can't compare Nibbes 2014 with Froome 2013. You would have had to compare him with Froome 2014. Unfortunately we didn't get to see that. But from what we do know Froome and AC would have been climbing better than Nibbes last year.
The Blues said:
According to Froome, before the 2014 Tour he was climbing even better than he was in 2013. AC had no problem climbing with Froome in 2014. So, the numbers that AC and Froome were putting out before the 2014 Tour were greater than those of 2013; you can't compare Nibbes 2014 with Froome 2013. You would have had to compare him with Froome 2014. Unfortunately we didn't get to see that. But from what we do know Froome and AC would have been climbing better than Nibbes last year.
Re: Re:
In August I thought Tinkov was joking but I had to change my opinion after Vuelta a España. Contador was much stronger than I expected at Vuelta."
"@ammattipyöräily: [...] The Tinkoff-Saxo owner Oleg Tinkov has said that Contador would have won the Tour de France despite Nibali leading Contador by 2.34 before stage ten.The Blues said:
In August I thought Tinkov was joking but I had to change my opinion after Vuelta a España. Contador was much stronger than I expected at Vuelta."
Interesting article. But it's pretty incredible that it shows that Horner's Vuelta performance was about equal to the duel between Contador and Froome in terms of watts, maximum output and power. And on shorter but steeper climbs, he even had an advantage over them. I don't know what to think about that.
But again. If Nibali did so well in the Tour, wouldn't that mean that riders such as Peraud who occasionally was able to hang on to him, did an extremely good job too? I'm definitely not seeing Peraud in his 2014 Tour form being able to stay with Quintana in his 2013 Tour form.
But again. If Nibali did so well in the Tour, wouldn't that mean that riders such as Peraud who occasionally was able to hang on to him, did an extremely good job too? I'm definitely not seeing Peraud in his 2014 Tour form being able to stay with Quintana in his 2013 Tour form.
Re: Re:
nibali went full gas on all mountains, contador didn't went full gas in stage 5, stage 8, stage 19, and he did 5.74 w/kg. nibali dropped by contador in stage 8.Jspear said:
Re:
Peraud did do really well last year if we look at his numbers. They were worse than Quintana's but slightly better than Rodriguez' numbers according to the following. And although a direct comparison is not always fair, it is not unreasonable to think that Peraud could podium the '13 TdF instead of Purito.
(Data: http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/92744402538/preliminary-comparison-2014-vs-2013-tour-de-france)
@Jspear: I realize that Contador and Froome were potentially going to be better, but then again, who knows if Nibali could have followed that? All of that is speculative, which is why I compared to actual data instead of what fans believe they were capable of.
WheelofGear said:
Peraud did do really well last year if we look at his numbers. They were worse than Quintana's but slightly better than Rodriguez' numbers according to the following. And although a direct comparison is not always fair, it is not unreasonable to think that Peraud could podium the '13 TdF instead of Purito.
(Data: http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/92744402538/preliminary-comparison-2014-vs-2013-tour-de-france)
@Jspear: I realize that Contador and Froome were potentially going to be better, but then again, who knows if Nibali could have followed that? All of that is speculative, which is why I compared to actual data instead of what fans believe they were capable of.
There's absolutely no point in comparing Nibali's Tour 14 average output with Froome Tour 13.
Nibali's is slightly higher thanks to Planche des belles filles, a short MTF and which of course enabled higher power output. There wasn't such a short MTF at the Tour 13'.
Also there are other factors such as the rivals, Nibali wasn't pushed at all, and could save energy as much as he wanted for the last week, or for whenever he wanted to attack. It was "free to play". If Contador was there, he would've probably faded under incessant attacks, and would've had to dig deeper in his reserves in every moutain stage given the fact that AC was 2 minutes behind.
Potentially leaving him weaker for the last week.
Riding against tougher rivals could've affected Nibali day after day, just like Froome faded against aggressive riding from Rodriguez and Quintana in the 3rd week.
Nibali's is slightly higher thanks to Planche des belles filles, a short MTF and which of course enabled higher power output. There wasn't such a short MTF at the Tour 13'.
Also there are other factors such as the rivals, Nibali wasn't pushed at all, and could save energy as much as he wanted for the last week, or for whenever he wanted to attack. It was "free to play". If Contador was there, he would've probably faded under incessant attacks, and would've had to dig deeper in his reserves in every moutain stage given the fact that AC was 2 minutes behind.
Potentially leaving him weaker for the last week.
Riding against tougher rivals could've affected Nibali day after day, just like Froome faded against aggressive riding from Rodriguez and Quintana in the 3rd week.
Re: Re:
Btw is ammattipyöräily the vetoo clinic guy who tweets so cryptically and created pvam or am I confusing him w someone else?
[...]? Let's take a look at what he said immediately preceding the part you quoted:Netserk said:
He believes they weren't as strong as Nibali and Froome? Interesting.
Btw is ammattipyöräily the vetoo clinic guy who tweets so cryptically and created pvam or am I confusing him w someone else?
Re: Re:
Tinkov would never say that. All he said precisely, is that Contador's training numbers were much higher than what Nibali achieved in that Tour. Of that, I'm 100% sure. But really his face on Gerardmer was telling a lot anyway.
SeriousSam said:
Tinkov would never say that. All he said precisely, is that Contador's training numbers were much higher than what Nibali achieved in that Tour. Of that, I'm 100% sure. But really his face on Gerardmer was telling a lot anyway.
Re: Re:
Over the whole Vuelta Contador was worse than Nibali over the whole Tour. Duh. Contador hadn't raced since he broke his leg in the Tour, so it's not exactly surprising he didn't hit the ground running. In the third week he was however better than Nibali in the Tour.SeriousSam said:
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