Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

That whole age thing is bs, and don't compare a pathetic rider like andy to Contador. So much talent and he just throws it away, angers me.

What about piti? He was already amazing when he was 23, he's 35 now and he's having one of his best years ever. You can't compare with age, with some it works and with some it doesn't.

You answered your own question. AC is not Piti. with some it works and with some it doesn't. So how do you explain Contador 2015 versus Contador 2011? The 2011 Giro was probably the hardest Grand Tour course for many years and since. He also had crashes in 2011 Tdf and worse team support. And yet AC performed better in 2011 with more adversity than 2015 with less adversity. If not age then what? It seems the most logical and obvious explanation.

1. In 2011 Contador did not perform better, he finished 5th just like this year and got dropped on every mountain finish bar 1 just like this year.
2. In 2011 he finished behind Cuddle Evans, the Frandy sisters and Titi Voeckler. This year he finished behind Froome, Quintana, Valverde and Nibali. That is something to consider.

Everyone who argues "he's old and can't reach his former level again" just forgets about last season. How convenient.

I am confident we will see him at his best again next year. He just has to have the proper motivation.

- except for Galibier stage where he cracked due to his knee and Giro fatigue. ?

OH, that day he cracked for that... It wanst becouse in those kind of long and hard days there are better people.. I dont think he cracked, just there were better people in that stage... his knee problem after 2 rest days was the past.

This year in the last week there wanst a similar stage, by far...so we cant compare.. but we have the stage of gap...

But yes, that Tour except that stage he was much stronger than this year, not just in le Tour, but in the Giro as well, although in the harderst stages he was at a similar level to other riders.

But that is usual after his santion.

When is when Contador crack, and when is that other were better?

In Paris Nice with Luis león? In Aprica? in Finestre? In Bola del Mundo? In Galibier?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Taxus, get over it.

Ninjadriver, are you sure you are a fan, I don't think I've ever seen you post anything positive about Alberto? try to be a little bit less pessimistic

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

Sure, i was saying andy's talent was pathetic... Pay attention.

No it wasn't. He was not a great TT rider and not good on wet descents. He did the best he could with the talent he had. Do you think if he worked even harder at TT he would all of a sudden become a great TT rider? If that was the case we could all become great TT riders. Do you think he never ever practised going downhill?
Andy did fine for most parts. A fit Andy could have won this years Tour.

 

[HelloDolly]

Contador can win the Tour the France next year , especially if he has a good team
Tinkoff Saxo needs to buy some climbing domestiques like Rafa Valls, Izzagirre brothers, Nieve maybe even Roland. SKY has shown that you need to be able to rotate doms and keep some fresh for certain parts of the race and you can only do that is you have the numbers

Kreuz & Rodgers are strong , Majka is a good climber but doesn't always show up as a dom and not sure why they didn't bring Kiserloski.
Contador in form with a good team and more TTs (to get the edge on Quintana ) is still a very good prospect

Seemed to me this year he knew very early on he hadn't the legs so he kind of gave up mentally

 

[dpm1991]

Re: Re:

That whole age thing is bs, and don't compare a pathetic rider like andy to Contador. So much talent and he just throws it away, angers me.

What about piti? He was already amazing when he was 23, he's 35 now and he's having one of his best years ever. You can't compare with age, with some it works and with some it doesn't.

You answered your own question. AC is not Piti. with some it works and with some it doesn't. So how do you explain Contador 2015 versus Contador 2011? The 2011 Giro was probably the hardest Grand Tour course for many years and since. He also had crashes in 2011 Tdf and worse team support. And yet AC performed better in 2011 with more adversity than 2015 with less adversity. If not age then what? It seems the most logical and obvious explanation.

1. In 2011 Contador did not perform better, he finished 5th just like this year and got dropped on every mountain finish bar 1 just like this year.
2. In 2011 he finished behind Cuddle Evans, the Frandy sisters and Titi Voeckler. This year he finished behind Froome, Quintana, Valverde and Nibali. That is something to consider.

Everyone who argues "he's old and can't reach his former level again" just forgets about last season. How convenient.

I am confident we will see him at his best again next year. He just has to have the proper motivation.

- except for Galibier stage where he cracked due to his knee and Giro fatigue. ?

OH, that day he cracked for that... It wanst becouse in those kind of long and hard days there are better people.. I dont think he cracked, just there were better people in that stage... his knee problem after 2 rest days was the past.

This year in the last week there wanst a similar stage, by far...so we cant compare.. but we have the stage of gap...

But yes, that Tour except that stage he was much stronger than this year, not just in le Tour, but in the Giro as well, although in the harderst stages he was at a similar level to other riders.

But that is usual after his santion.

When is when Contador crack, and when is that other were better?

In Paris Nice with Luis león? In Aprica? in Finestre? In Bola del Mundo? In Galibier?

Most of those scenarios are 4 years old, so my memory can glitch out here. Giro '15 on the stages you mentioned i would risk that at least Landa was better. By how much in reality i won't tell as i don't know, but the time differences were real. Tour '11 Galibier I would risk that he cracked. PSM '15 is where he definetly lost time because of shape, not crack and if i remember correctly, Galibier '11 was different scenario. If i remember he lost like 1:30 in last 3-4kms to Frank, Cadel, SS-man (Voeckler) and Lone Wolf McQuade (Cunego) among others. He was riding with them fine until he almost stoped. He definitely didn't felt best in that day as otherwise he could follow Andy in Izoard but i don't think he could lost that much time in such a way if he didn't cracked. His Alpes form that year wasn't the best - his l'Alpe ascent was very mediocre (beaten by Sanchez and then ascending Rolland). In Giro '11 although he was mostly toying with the opposition but i think he did faded on Gardeccia, as Scarponi was catching him.

Ok, I found a footage of the ascend. What Contador did was: he lost a contact with the group briefly, then he stood up and catched the group and after a couple of seconds he completly blew up. Interestingly when he blew up he did stand up to try to accelerate but it didn't work out. It looked like he was kinda shocked what just happened, otherwise he would not stood up to try to accelerate. I remember now that after the stage i thought it could be partialy his bike fault and partialy his suspicious shape that day - he was quite far away in the peleton on Agnel if i remember correctly. I don't know how to judge the situation, but i will risk and keep my original thoughts as he had suspicious shape that day (he would try to sprint with Frank Schleck but fade out in last meters and maybe end up with or slightly behind Evans) but the loss of time was mostly a result of him bonking.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

Sure, i was saying andy's talent was pathetic... Pay attention.

No it wasn't. He was not a great TT rider and not good on wet descents. He did the best he could with the talent he had. Do you think if he worked even harder at TT he would all of a sudden become a great TT rider? If that was the case we could all become great TT riders. Do you think he never ever practised going downhill?
Andy did fine for most parts. A fit Andy could have won this years Tour.

Once again you missed the point, getting drunk in hotels or at the vuelta.

That's what i'm talking about, doesn't care about the sport.

 

[peloton]

Re:

Contador can win the Tour the France next year , especially if he has a good team
Tinkoff Saxo needs to buy some climbing domestiques like Rafa Valls, Izzagirre brothers, Nieve maybe even Roland. SKY has shown that you need to be able to rotate doms and keep some fresh for certain parts of the race and you can only do that is you have the numbers

Kreuz & Rodgers are strong , Majka is a good climber but doesn't always show up as a dom and not sure why they didn't bring Kiserloski.
Contador in form with a good team and more TTs (to get the edge on Quintana ) is still a very good prospect

Seemed to me this year he knew very early on he hadn't the legs so he kind of gave up mentally

He doesn't need mountain trains, he can just hang on others (when on form). What he needs is protection on flat/windy stages, as they've done.

He looked drained at the end of the Tour, apparently he had fever already after the cobble stage :/

 

[dacooley]

the bottom line is contador needs train to a lesser extent than froome but all in all every big rider needs a train as a strong climbing team makes a task easier. i personally think froome could've won the stage 10 with any kind of leadout from any team but an exact thomas' and porte's effort maximized his 1m4s haul. this would work for alberto too. a strong team is a very big deal.

 

[contador977]

Re:

the bottom line is contador needs train to a lesser extent than froome but all in all every big rider needs a train as a strong climbing team makes a task easier. i personally think froome could've won the stage 10 with any kind of leadout from any team but an exact thomas' and porte's effort maximized his 1m4s haul. this would work for alberto too. a strong team is a very big deal.

He needs to follow the 2014 template and the buildup I imagine that starts in December?

To touch on your point...Tinkoff Saxo should have signed Mikel Landa. Contador never had anyone consisently with him at the Giro or the Tour during the crucial stages.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Sure, i was saying andy's talent was pathetic... Pay attention.

No it wasn't. He was not a great TT rider and not good on wet descents. He did the best he could with the talent he had. Do you think if he worked even harder at TT he would all of a sudden become a great TT rider? If that was the case we could all become great TT riders. Do you think he never ever practised going downhill?
Andy did fine for most parts. A fit Andy could have won this years Tour.

Once again you missed the point, getting drunk in hotels or at the vuelta.

That's what i'm talking about, doesn't care about the sport.

So someone who had a drink doesn't care about the sport.
He was racing at Tirreno-Adriatico and had to pull out after 50km. He was still suffering with injury,health problems. He has a drink at the airport that night and gets spotted by a French MP ...

He also had a drink at the vuleta with Stuart o Grady, Four days after the race finished he left the team ,
obviously was not happy there.

So a rider in difficult circumstances had a drink [ twice] and you say he " doesn't care about the sport"

What about all the other riders that have a drink "it does happen" that you don't hear about.

If I was to take you post literally then most of the peloton " doesn't care about the sport"

You have know idea of Andy's circumstances and to make a judgement about something you HAVE NO INSIGHT INTO , is ridiculous.

PS please make your posts clearer in future so posters know what your talking about .

 

[ice&fire]

Re: Re:

He also had a drink at the vuleta with Stuart o Grady, Four days after the race finished he left the team ,
obviously was not happy there.

So a rider in difficult circumstances had a drink [ twice] and you say he " doesn't care about the sport"

What about all the other riders that have a drink "it does happen" that you don't hear about.

If I was to take you post literally then most of the peloton " doesn't care about the sport"

You have know idea of Andy's circumstances and to make a judgement about something you HAVE NO INSIGHT INTO , is ridiculous.

PS please make your posts clearer in future so posters know what your talking about .

If a rider is sent back home during a stage race by his DS after being out partying and drinking and getting back late at night to the hotel, can we assume the DS has some insight into the issue?

 

[Carols]

Why are we talking about Andy's drunken behavior in Alberto's thread? Andy is Old News.....

Alberto on the other hand has won 2 of the last 3 GTs. It's the dog days of summer here. I'm amusing myself by creating a Giro compilation. I'm at the chase back to the Mortirolo right now. Alberto's best 2 rides of 2015 were the Giro ITT and the Mortirolo .

 

[dpm1991]

Re:

Alberto on the other hand has won 2 of the last 3 GTs. It's the dog days of summer here. I'm amusing myself by creating a Giro compilation. I'm at the chase back to the Mortirolo right now. Alberto's best 2 rides of 2015 were the Giro ITT and the Mortirolo .

Indeed Mortirolo was very flashy, but i think Alpe Segletta was a better ride by him. He succesfully attacked theoretically without purpose from almost 50km. Even if his attack was more succesful because Landa had a mechanical in the meantime, but after Landa catched Aru group he mysteriously sat up and stayed in the group while Albercik found an ally in Hesjedal and later his teammate - Vilella. The attack wasn't something extraterrestial as Hesjedal was matching him quite fine on the ascent and he was cooked at the end of the stage, but it was (if i remember correctly) the only road stage (not counting ITT) where he gained significant time on the Astana duo (his only rivals at this stage of the Giro). His team was good too, they shattered the bunch at the beginning of the ascent and even Kreuziger distanced himself with Contador on his back from the bunch for a brief moment.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

the bottom line is contador needs train to a lesser extent than froome but all in all every big rider needs a train as a strong climbing team makes a task easier. i personally think froome could've won the stage 10 with any kind of leadout from any team but an exact thomas' and porte's effort maximized his 1m4s haul. this would work for alberto too. a strong team is a very big deal.

I agree. A strong team is a must in any GT as the competition is too strong and close now.
Contador paid for not having a strong team in the Giro. He paid in the Giro & subsequently he paid in the Tour because he was tired from all the work he did in the Giro

A strong team is needed to control the race from the beginning of each stage especially the mountain stages to control breakaways. also needed to chase attack on the mountain, keep the leader at the front on the flat, cobbles & hilly stages . positioning is key always, and they always need to be there all day every day

TCS were good in the Tour some days but SKY were so much better everyday because they had the numbers and rotated the riders.

I firmly believe Contador can win the Tour next year but he needs a very strong team and a few more very good mountains doms are needed. Tinkov needs to pay up to win the Tour

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Alberto on the other hand has won 2 of the last 3 GTs. It's the dog days of summer here. I'm amusing myself by creating a Giro compilation. I'm at the chase back to the Mortirolo right now. Alberto's best 2 rides of 2015 were the Giro ITT and the Mortirolo .

Indeed Mortirolo was very flashy, but i think Alpe Segletta was a better ride by him. He succesfully attacked theoretically without purpose from almost 50km. Even if his attack was more succesful because Landa had a mechanical in the meantime, but after Landa catched Aru group he mysteriously sat up and stayed in the group while Albercik found an ally in Hesjedal and later his teammate - Vilella. The attack wasn't something extraterrestial as Hesjedal was matching him quite fine on the ascent and he was cooked at the end of the stage, but it was (if i remember correctly) the only road stage (not counting ITT) where he gained significant time on the Astana duo (his only rivals at this stage of the Giro). His team was good too, they shattered the bunch at the beginning of the ascent and even Kreuziger distanced himself with Contador on his back from the bunch for a brief moment.

Ah that is stage 18! I haven't rewatched that yet. I do recall he attacked at 45+km to go Maybe I'll add it to my list of the best of Alberto 2015.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

That whole age thing is bs, and don't compare a pathetic rider like andy to Contador. So much talent and he just throws it away, angers me.

What about piti? He was already amazing when he was 23, he's 35 now and he's having one of his best years ever. You can't compare with age, with some it works and with some it doesn't.

You answered your own question. AC is not Piti. with some it works and with some it doesn't. So how do you explain Contador 2015 versus Contador 2011? The 2011 Giro was probably the hardest Grand Tour course for many years and since. He also had crashes in 2011 Tdf and worse team support. And yet AC performed better in 2011 with more adversity than 2015 with less adversity. If not age then what? It seems the most logical and obvious explanation.

1. In 2011 Contador did not perform better, he finished 5th just like this year and got dropped on every mountain finish bar 1 just like this year.

Im no Contador-fan, but I think I'll allow myself to post here anyways!

2011-Contador was definetely better than 2015 Contador, no doubt. Contador was just straight out dominating the field in 2011 in a much similar peloton to that as the 2015 Giro-one. That along with the 2009-Tour de France is the best I have ever seen him. He was just... amazing, jaw-dropping etc.

Contador was also a tad, if not two, better in the Tour 2011 than 2015. Just saying he ended 5th both times doesnt an accurate story - fx., the timegap to Froome in comparison to Evans was almost x3 of that he suffered to Cuddles. 2015-Contador wasnt able to animate the race such as he did in the Alps 2011 either, at Gap and especially the stage to the Alp, he simply just didnt have anything left.

Just going of the eyetest (which honestly is very accurate in terms of evaluating Contador - when he is able to go, he goes), Contador was extraordinary in 2011 Giro, while he was riding a smartly in 2015 with some exceptional stages where he really shone. He did that on pretty much all stages of 2011. Later, he was just cooked in 2015 in the Tour as in 2011, but to a much lesser extent in 2011 due to... I dont know, age, training (I refuse to believe this one - he was better prepared for the double in 2015), 'a not so good year', doping. Who knows.

One thing is for sure tho, I dont know write him off like pretty much everyone did in 2013. Hoping to see him back at a 2014 or very near that level.

 

[kirbygasm]

My favourite stage is Mount Etna at the 2011 Giro, it was so good that my friend who wasn't a fan of AC changed his mind

 

[Carols]

Re:

My favourite stage is Mount Etna at the 2011 Giro, it was so good that my friend who wasn't a fan of AC changed his mind

That and Fuente De are the ones I watch when I need a cheer up . His pedaling style was just magical on Etna, poetic.

Now he seems to push a larger gear and isn't nearly as fluid......

 

[Red Rick]

So, so many assumptions here in this discussion. The way he approached this season makes it impossible to say there was decline

He was great on hazallanas, best performance of his year in februari, reportedly not going all out, the basis was there
Then he had a few crashes/sickesses in the wt stage races. Then there was the giro already.

He came into the giro undercooked, compared to 2011, at his previous double attempt, form also influejces recovery. He was great in 2011 and could handle more effort than this year, he recovered somewhat and went out all guns blazing in the tour.

This year he got more than he could handle because his shape wasnt good enough to begin with. The whole approach backfired with all the adversity

Besides, I dont think contador will be hanging around till he starts declining seriously

 

[kirbygasm]

Re: Re:

My favourite stage is Mount Etna at the 2011 Giro, it was so good that my friend who wasn't a fan of AC changed his mind

That and Fuente De are the ones I watch when I need a cheer up . His pedaling style was just magical on Etna, poetic.

Now he seems to push a larger gear and isn't nearly as fluid......

And this too http://youtu.be/1eJn0Sjkl6g

 

[dpm1991]

Re:

My favourite stage is Mount Etna at the 2011 Giro, it was so good that my friend who wasn't a fan of AC changed his mind

Etna (and later Grossglockner) was stolen by mr. trollo, even if he didn't win the stage. He was hanging on Alberto's wheel for dear life and lost only about 5-10s. Guy like Scarponi tried to briefly follow up Alberto to blow up worse than Visconti who was in the breakaway. Nibali didn't even try to touch him seeing what happened to Scarponi. Both Alberto and Rujano where flying this Giro. Sadly there was no Ivan Parra to complete the latino-american doublets like in Giro '05.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

He also had a drink at the vuleta with Stuart o Grady, Four days after the race finished he left the team ,
obviously was not happy there.

So a rider in difficult circumstances had a drink [ twice] and you say he " doesn't care about the sport"

What about all the other riders that have a drink "it does happen" that you don't hear about.

If I was to take you post literally then most of the peloton " doesn't care about the sport"

You have know idea of Andy's circumstances and to make a judgement about something you HAVE NO INSIGHT INTO , is ridiculous.

PS please make your posts clearer in future so posters know what your talking about .

If a rider is sent back home during a stage race by his DS after being out partying and drinking and getting back late at night to the hotel, can we assume the DS has some insight into the issue?

You can assume anything you want,,, it does not mean "he doesn't care about the sport"
which is the statement made and a ridiculous one at that.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

And this too http://youtu.be/1eJn0Sjkl6g

Very nice!

 

[Matteo.]

Re: Re:

My favourite stage is Mount Etna at the 2011 Giro, it was so good that my friend who wasn't a fan of AC changed his mind

That and Fuente De are the ones I watch when I need a cheer up . His pedaling style was just magical on Etna, poetic.

Now he seems to push a larger gear and isn't nearly as fluid......

He is older

 

[BlurryVII]

I'd argue that Contador was better in 2011, but it doesn't mean he was worse here because he is aging, that's just the easy conclusion. Many factors are in the equation, he started undercooked like Red Rick said, with a less good form, but especially he crashed in Tirreno and Catalunya which was a bad one as well in the Giro twice.

And no one knows how all these crashes (4 in total) affected him. For those who didn't know as well, Contador trained with slightly deflated wheels in Tenerifie before the the Giro, during 2 weeks because he had a bone fissure in his back after the Catalunya crash. He said it helped him not feel that pain.

The preperation was definetely not great, obviously many things didn't go as planned. Riis was also saying Alberto had allergies during the Giro, probably he was talking with him and there's no reason he'd be lying. AC performed amazingly in the TT and Puncheur stage that Gilbert won, conveniently both under the rain. And I've never seen AC not flying the mountains when he is that good in TT. This Giro was an exception that could well be explained by allergies.