Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

I

I agree on Aru vs Quintana. I just don't see Quintana having the game - he's a conservative rider. And hasn't lived up to the hype of early development.

Quintana is indeed quite a conservative rider. Or at least he's the most conservative of the "big 4" GC men. But I can't really agree that he hasn't lived up to the hype. In the last three years he has won the Giro and come second to Froome twice in the Tour. That's an excellent record for someone who is more a specialist climber than a balanced GC rider. On the evidence of last year he may well be the very best climber, at the very worst he's been in a class of two on recent years performances.

If you're talking about the last two years, then you'd have to make that a class of 4. I'd put Contador and Nibali in that same group in 2014.

What is interesting, if not to say weird, is why Contador wasn't at 2014 level last year (especially if he returns to it this one) and why Nibali (after a fine opening TT) was up-and-down at the Tour, but arguably found his top form again at the end of the season?

As far as Quintana is concerned, were it not for bad positioning on the windy stage, arguably he could have won the Tour when Froome cracked late in the race. What sealed the Colombian's fate was not a lack of balls, however, but getting dropped by Froome on the first MTF. You can't fault him for not trying there.

finally someones clapped his eyes on a key factor. anyone of us understands how to win a moutains-loaded tour if you are the strongest climber, anyone sees how to try to take it as ultimately contador did in 2007 if you are on par with someone else at climbing, but nobody's willing to explain how to grab the big one, if you are a runty colombian climber, limited at descending, don't have physique to go solo in the valley productively and suffer an absolutely crushing defeat on the 1st mountain top finish. it's not very reasonable to accuse quintana in being not such a great rider like contador. to each his own.

That's not the point. You said you failed to see the difference between them; the difference was AC tried - Quintana didn't try like that. I bet if he had, he would have been even closer to Froome or even won the 2015 Tour.

why the schlecks (scarponi, nibali, menchov) didn't start attacking bertie like hell after verbier (etna) how do you think?

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

If you don't ride for the victory when your 2nd place is already certain, you're a pussy. It's not name calling, it's a fact.

what a rider should do if he's physically weaker as quintana apparently was before the toussuire stage? making a suicide attack, kicking himself out of top 5 and taking so much appreciation on cn forum boards. you are utterly harsh to nairito imo. honestly, i fail to make out a big difference between the 2015 tour from quintana and the 2007 tour frome contador before the chicken was forcibly sent home.

Yea he should, he already was 2nd. He shouldn't care about that anymore, he had the best team too.

But instead of that his team chases after guys like contador for no reason at all.

And in 2007 Contador never did anything in a GT, second would have been amazing. And contador actually attacked a bit too early on the last MTF which made him crack at the end.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

why the schlecks (scarponi, nibali, menchov) didn't start attacking bertie like hell after verbier (etna) how do you think?

They did. However, at the Giro, Alberto was the one to initiate the GC attacks several times, so Scarponi and Nibali didn't really get a chance. But they sure did try.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

If you don't ride for the victory when your 2nd place is already certain, you're a pussy. It's not name calling, it's a fact.

what a rider should do if he's physically weaker as quintana apparently was before the toussuire stage? making a suicide attack, kicking himself out of top 5 and taking so much appreciation on cn forum boards. you are utterly harsh to nairito imo. honestly, i fail to make out a big difference between the 2015 tour from quintana and the 2007 tour frome contador before the chicken was forcibly sent home.

Oh not much lol. 2007 Contador just did close to a dozens attacks on Plateau de Beille/ peyresourde / Aubisque and actually attacked and dropped everyone with 40 kms to go on Galibier and would've made it stick if it wasn't for the huge flat part between Galibier and the short climb at Briancon.

Quintana tried in Mende, Col d'Allos, (tardily in) Col du Glandon, Croix-de-Fer, three times in Alpe d'Huez...
You can't say he didn't try.

 

[ferryman]

I really don't get the dislike for Quintana on here (or anywhere). We've got a young guy who is showing a fair bit of panache and will only get better. With young Aru coming to the fore and possibly Landa there are surely some exciting times ahead..

 

[Red Rick]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

 

[rhubroma]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

But it wasn't just Quintana that didn't want to risk losing his placement. For Valverde did everything to hold on to third. And here was the big tactical blunder Movistar made, if they really wanted to win. Valverde should have repeatedly attacked early to put pressure on Sky, but he didn't. In that case it was pretty hard for Quintana to ride away from Froome with a large enough margin to beat him in Paris. Valverde is thus as much to blame for Quintana's calculating effort, but this is what happens when you have a selfish teamate who thinks he is the greatest Spanish rider of all time!

 

[dacooley]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

yes, true, but that is a post factum conclusion. before the last 6k of la toussuire stage froome hasn't shown any loom of weakness and quintana is not extrasensory to foresee the future.

 

[Red Rick]

He could've gone with nibali, when froome was already gone with a mechanical. Risk-free attack. Put froome on the defensive and let him show how good he really is. Besides, you should not wait with attacking until youre sure it works, quintana waited until it was too late no matter how hard he dropped froome

 

[Singer01]

Re:

If you don't ride for the victory when your 2nd place is already certain, you're a pussy. It's not name calling, it's a fact.

How did you get a masters without knowing the difference between opinion and fact?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

If you don't ride for the victory when your 2nd place is already certain, you're a pussy. It's not name calling, it's a fact.

How did you get a masters without knowing the difference between opinion and fact?

Especially a Masters in law, haha

 

[rick james]

Re:

He could've gone with nibali, when froome was already gone with a mechanical. Risk-free attack. Put froome on the defensive and let him show how good he really is. Besides, you should not wait with attacking until youre sure it works, quintana waited until it was too late no matter how hard he dropped froome

attacking under a mechanical, classy, panache indeed.
I actually had more respect for Contador and the other GC riders that didn't attack when Froome had the mechanical, the better side of the sport for me..

 

[Valv.Piti]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

But it wasn't just Quintana that didn't want to risk losing his placement. For Valverde did everything to hold on to third. And here was the big tactical blunder Movistar made, if they really wanted to win. Valverde should have repeatedly attacked early to put pressure on Sky, but he didn't. In that case it was pretty hard for Quintana to ride away from Froome with a large enough margin to beat him in Paris. Valverde is thus as much to blame for Quintana's calculating effort, but this is what happens when you have a selfish teamate who thinks he is the greatest Spanish rider of all time!

Nice attempt to sneak some Piti-hate in there! Strictly on palmares, I would still say Valverde is the best rider of his generation and yes, better than Contador, but thats a whole other discussion!

I have debated the Quintana, Valverde and Movistar-hate that was spewed in July and forth super many times and frankly getting a little bored, but here we go again. I agree with you that its totally unfair to blame it all on Quintana. Valverde definitely played a part in all of this: the aging spanish superstar on HIS TEAM finally lives up to expectations and can grab a podium spot. That was a super big goal for Valverde, we could all witness that after the Alpe. Valverde definitely played it conservatively, but honestly, I dont really blame him for that. Some would say he should have been 100% dedicated to Quintana, but a podium spot in Paris was simply too much to give up for Valverde compared to the slight chance of a TdF-win by Quintana.

I also think Unzue played a part. I was not like he ordered Quintana not to attack or anything like that, but I also do think that Unzue is a realist and was more than happy with 2 spots on the podium. I know, Quintana was within range and it was possible, but after getting clapped by Froome and taken over by fckin Richie Porte on the same stage, I dont blame him for nor trying in the Pyrenees. The alps is a different story, but the only stage I had a problem with him was on La Touissuire. He shoulda went from the bottom, regardless of Valverde or Unzue which I think played a bigger role than some gives them credit for. He just shoulda went, but didnt, which obviously was super disappointing. Valverde didnt want to devote himself for a few kilometres at 100% - he was scared of going into the red too early and losing the spot to Nibali, Contador was pretty much a nonfactor after losing 2 minutes at Pra Loup, and again, I dont blame him. That stage was definetely on Quintana's part, but I dont see where you really can blame Quintana elsewhere for riding too conservatively. I think everyone would have been a bit demoralized after that PSM-stage which sealed the race early on.

 

[Mr.White]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

But it wasn't just Quintana that didn't want to risk losing his placement. For Valverde did everything to hold on to third. And here was the big tactical blunder Movistar made, if they really wanted to win. Valverde should have repeatedly attacked early to put pressure on Sky, but he didn't. In that case it was pretty hard for Quintana to ride away from Froome with a large enough margin to beat him in Paris. Valverde is thus as much to blame for Quintana's calculating effort, but this is what happens when you have a selfish teamate who thinks he is the greatest Spanish rider of all time!

Valverde attacked multiple times, offering springboards for Quintana, but Quintana simply didn't respond until last mountain stage, as I recall... In fact both times when Quintana dropped Froome in last stage, Valverde attacked before that. And yes, he is one of the greatest Spanish riders of all time!

 

[rhubroma]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

But it wasn't just Quintana that didn't want to risk losing his placement. For Valverde did everything to hold on to third. And here was the big tactical blunder Movistar made, if they really wanted to win. Valverde should have repeatedly attacked early to put pressure on Sky, but he didn't. In that case it was pretty hard for Quintana to ride away from Froome with a large enough margin to beat him in Paris. Valverde is thus as much to blame for Quintana's calculating effort, but this is what happens when you have a selfish teamate who thinks he is the greatest Spanish rider of all time!

Valverde attacked multiple times, offering springboards for Quintana, but Quintana simply didn't respond until last mountain stage, as I recall... In fact both times when Quintana dropped Froome in last stage, Valverde attacked before that. And yes, he is one of the greatest Spanish riders of all time!

I don't recall him attacking multiple times to set Quintana up. If I'm mistaken, though, I'll gladly accept being reminded of those times.

 

[rhubroma]

Quintana tried

When it was tooate alright

He dropped froome like a brick on la toussuire, after waiting for the flattest part of a flat climb. Nibali attacked on the glandon that stage and it won him a lot more time evn though quintana was way better.

Then the next day, he attacked on the last part of the CdF after the hard parts and the chance to get Froome isolated were already over. Then he dropped froome for over a minute on AdH. The chance was there, and he didnt take it.

Trying and failing >>>>>>>>>> not trying, pretend youve tried and be super happy with 2nd place.

He didnt do the thing that had the highest possibility of winning, he did the one with the lowest possibility of losing his precious 2nd place.

In the tour, Id take Andy Schleck over Quintana every day of the week

But it wasn't just Quintana that didn't want to risk losing his placement. For Valverde did everything to hold on to third. And here was the big tactical blunder Movistar made, if they really wanted to win. Valverde should have repeatedly attacked early to put pressure on Sky, but he didn't. In that case it was pretty hard for Quintana to ride away from Froome with a large enough margin to beat him in Paris. Valverde is thus as much to blame for Quintana's calculating effort, but this is what happens when you have a selfish teamate who thinks he is the greatest Spanish rider of all time!

Nice attempt to sneak some Piti-hate in there! Strictly on palmares, I would still say Valverde is the best rider of his generation and yes, better than Contador, but thats a whole other discussion!

I have debated the Quintana, Valverde and Movistar-hate that was spewed in July and forth super many times and frankly getting a little bored, but here we go again. I agree with you that its totally unfair to blame it all on Quintana. Valverde definitely played a part in all of this: the aging spanish superstar on HIS TEAM finally lives up to expectations and can grab a podium spot. That was a super big goal for Valverde, we could all witness that after the Alpe. Valverde definitely played it conservatively, but honestly, I dont really blame him for that. Some would say he should have been 100% dedicated to Quintana, but a podium spot in Paris was simply too much to give up for Valverde compared to the slight chance of a TdF-win by Quintana.

I also think Unzue played a part. I was not like he ordered Quintana not to attack or anything like that, but I also do think that Unzue is a realist and was more than happy with 2 spots on the podium. I know, Quintana was within range and it was possible, but after getting clapped by Froome and taken over by fckin Richie Porte on the same stage, I dont blame him for nor trying in the Pyrenees. The alps is a different story, but the only stage I had a problem with him was on La Touissuire. He shoulda went from the bottom, regardless of Valverde or Unzue which I think played a bigger role than some gives them credit for. He just shoulda went, but didnt, which obviously was super disappointing. Valverde didnt want to devote himself for a few kilometres at 100% - he was scared of going into the red too early and losing the spot to Nibali, Contador was pretty much a nonfactor after losing 2 minutes at Pra Loup, and again, I dont blame him. That stage was definetely on Quintana's part, but I dont see where you really can blame Quintana elsewhere for riding too conservatively. I think everyone would have been a bit demoralized after that PSM-stage which sealed the race early on.

I don't see how a multiple grand tour champion is less great than one who hasn't won a grand tour. In the grand scheme of things I put a multiple Grand Tour champion above a Classics one and, on this ground, Valverde doesn't match Contador's engine or natural talent.

Valverde wants to be viewed based on his palmares as the greatest Spanish Champion of his generation, but only his fans see it that way.

 

[Valv.Piti]

On the first post: He attacked on PSM, Plateau de Beille, Croix de Fer and La Touissuire on stage 19 and Croix de Fer at stage 20. But you probably wont consider them as real attacks.

On the second: Valverde has actually won a GT, so..... yeah. But it all comes down how much you value the GT's and since you are a Contador-fan, you would obviously value them a lot more than classics, at least for the sake of this argument. Oh, and I also totally disagree on your statement that Valverde doesnt match Cntador engine and natural talent or whatever. I think he more than does that.

 

[gerundium]

Well he isn't kidding around with his training we know that for sure. Still amazes how crazy good these guys really are when you see the hard numbers for their training.....

 

[Angliru]

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

 

[Mr.White]

About natural talent matter, well I don't think any rider of the current generation is anywhere near Valverde. And how Valverde wants to be viewed is his matter, not mine or yours. If he thinks he's the greatest Spanish rider of his generation, he's entitled to do so, he's pretty close to that you know. I also thinks, like you, that Contador is that guy, but unlike you I think that margin between him and Valverde is pretty small.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

On the first post: He attacked on PSM, Plateau de Beille, Croix de Fer and La Touissuire on stage 19 and Croix de Fer at stage 20. But you probably wont consider them as real attacks.

On the second: Valverde has actually won a GT, so..... yeah. But it all comes down how much you value the GT's and since you are a Contador-fan, you would obviously value them a lot more than classics, at least for the sake of this argument. Oh, and I also totally disagree on your statement that Valverde doesnt match Cntador engine and natural talent or whatever. I think he more than does that.

1) They weren't real attacks, especially Croix de Fer on Stage 19. He dropped no one. It was an up in tempo, not an attack. Same goes for PSM, just evryone was crap that day, and to a lesser extent Plateau de Beille. And on stage 19 he attacked with like 5km to go, on a 19km climb. Stage 20 I'll give him, but it was a v. cautious attack, not much real intent.

2) Yeah fair enough. But i think Valverde talent = Contador talent. Very similar, very high levels of talent.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

If you don't ride for the victory when your 2nd place is already certain, you're a pussy. It's not name calling, it's a fact.

How did you get a masters without knowing the difference between opinion and fact?

"My second place is certain, i've been second already anyways but let's not take any risk and just go for that second while i've cracked froome like a motherfucker the day before."

Unless quintana of course thought he was gonna take all that time back in the last day when he attacked from 2km out before the end of the mountain (before alpe d'huez).

Then of course you're right, he's not a pussy but an idiot.

 

[Red Rick]

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

About natural talent matter, well I don't think any rider of the current generation is anywhere near Valverde. And how Valverde wants to be viewed is his matter, not mine or yours. If he thinks he's the greatest Spanish rider of his generation, he's entitled to do so, he's pretty close to that you know. I also thinks, like you, that Contador is that guy, but unlike you I think that margin between him and Valverde is pretty small.

Fair enough, but I can't place Valverde in the same engine. He sparkled in the Armstrong era, but then AC arrived.

In any case cycling has changed, and only those with the biggest engines have any margin of winning a Grand Tour. For better or worse, that is the verdict.

 

[mikelarriola]

Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist