Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[rhubroma]

Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

On the first post: He attacked on PSM, Plateau de Beille, Croix de Fer and La Touissuire on stage 19 and Croix de Fer at stage 20. But you probably wont consider them as real attacks.

On the second: Valverde has actually won a GT, so..... yeah. But it all comes down how much you value the GT's and since you are a Contador-fan, you would obviously value them a lot more than classics, at least for the sake of this argument. Oh, and I also totally disagree on your statement that Valverde doesnt match Cntador engine and natural talent or whatever. I think he more than does that.

1) They weren't real attacks, especially Croix de Fer on Stage 19. He dropped no one. It was an up in tempo, not an attack. Same goes for PSM, just evryone was crap that day, and to a lesser extent Plateau de Beille. And on stage 19 he attacked with like 5km to go, on a 19km climb. Stage 20 I'll give him, but it was a v. cautious attack, not much real intent.

2) Yeah fair enough. But i think Valverde talent = Contador talent. Very similar, very high levels of talent.

Brullnux: The post was directed at Rhubroma who apparently didn't remember that Valverde actually attacked, not Quintana, and also somehow forgot that Valverde actually had won a GT. Rofl.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist

Not every cyclist, I give you Fuente De! He who risks the most sometimes takes the prize

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

He who risks the most sometimes takes the prize

That must be a quote from Floyd Landis .

In all seriousness, all of you are (somewhat) right depending on which angle you look at it. Yet, IMO, and ask Poulidor, you get very few chances to win a TdF; Quintana blew a huge opportunity by being conservative. Contrary to my predictions, Piti did a good (not super but quite good) job as a team player. The fault is on Quintana. Clearly.

Back to Bertie (the best Spanish rider of his generation BTW), he was nowhere near fresh at the start, I bet he'll be in top shape in July, if his team is strong and he gets half the support that Froome gets, I bet my dollar on him.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist

Even Contador in 2011 and 2013?

2013 in particular stands out for me, he had 2nd all but sewn up yet still attacked on the descent of the Alpe d'Huez. It cost him big time, but at least he went down fighting for first.

However, he's possibly the only one.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist

Even Contador in 2011 and 2013?

2013 in particular stands out for me, he had 2nd all but sewn up yet still attacked on the descent of the Alpe d'Huez. It cost him big time, but at least he went down fighting for first.

However, he's possibly the only one.

Lets not glorify him more than we need to. It was a relatively weak attack on the descent. Also, regardless of that 'attack', Quintana and Rodriguez would seal the deal at Semnoz. He didnt have 2nd all but sewn up at that point

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist

Not every cyclist, I give you Fuente De! He who risks the most sometimes takes the prize

#deep

 

[dacooley]

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

I have to disagree. In my book Indurain is still ahead of Contador. His 5 consecutive TDF including 2 doubles, plus Olympic TT gold and WC RR medals, tops Contador's 9(7) GT's

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

I have to disagree. In my book Indurain is still ahead of Contador. His 5 consecutive TDF including 2 doubles, plus Olympic TT gold and WC RR medals, tops Contador's 9(7) GT's

That is neither here, nor there. You have to consider would a top Indurian have beaten a top Contador (let's say 93 vs 09). Not in a million years mate. In fact, I don't believe Indurain would even win the Tour during this generation as he was too big, unless there were several long TTs and very mild mountains.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

I have to disagree. In my book Indurain is still ahead of Contador. His 5 consecutive TDF including 2 doubles, plus Olympic TT gold and WC RR medals, tops Contador's 9(7) GT's

That is neither here, nor there. You have to consider would a top Indurian have beaten a top Contador (let's say 93 vs 09). Not in a million years mate. In fact, I don't believe Indurain would even win the Tour during this generation as he was too big, unless there were several long TTs and very mild mountains.

that's absolutely pointless to compare '09 and '93. different sportsmen under million different circumstances, different levels of athletic, medical preparation, 2 different cycling worlds.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

If it wasn't risky why do we see such moves so rarely, in fact Bertie is the only big GC rider that frequently tries such a move.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

I have to disagree. In my book Indurain is still ahead of Contador. His 5 consecutive TDF including 2 doubles, plus Olympic TT gold and WC RR medals, tops Contador's 9(7) GT's

That is neither here, nor there. You have to consider would a top Indurian have beaten a top Contador (let's say 93 vs 09). Not in a million years mate. In fact, I don't believe Indurain would even win the Tour during this generation as he was too big, unless there were several long TTs and very mild mountains.

that's absolutely pointless to compare '09 and '93. different sportsmen under million different circumstances, different levels of athletic, medical preparation, 2 different cycling worlds.

It isn't rediculous when drawing a comparison with mother nature. Contador is the best. Better than Indurain and certainly better than Valverde on this account, which is everything. The medical preparation doesn't matter between Indurain's and Contador's times. If anything Miguel had the advantage.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

I have to disagree. In my book Indurain is still ahead of Contador. His 5 consecutive TDF including 2 doubles, plus Olympic TT gold and WC RR medals, tops Contador's 9(7) GT's

That is neither here, nor there. You have to consider would a top Indurian have beaten a top Contador (let's say 93 vs 09). Not in a million years mate. In fact, I don't believe Indurain would even win the Tour during this generation as he was too big, unless there were several long TTs and very mild mountains.

Depends on the route. El Miguelon was absolutely no joke in the mountains and could light it up when he really needed to. +100 km of ITT? Indurain for sure. 50 ITT? I would probably bet my money on Contador since he was extremely good in the ITT that year, but hasn't really reached that same level since.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

If it wasn't risky why do we see such moves so rarely, in fact Bertie is the only big GC rider that frequently tries such a move.

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

 

[Carols]

Re:

fuente de wasn't an extremely risky move, by then bertie virtually secured podium spot and if rodriguez had caught contador the peloton would have just reunited and all of them would quietly cruised to the finish line. landis' bloodbath and the 2000 tour solo from pantani is what i really call an all-or-nothing long-range attack.

The point is he doesn't Care about the stupid podium spot, he went all in to Win!

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

Agree. And the same year at the Dauphine, he was clearly stronger than Dawg. Nairo is to Froome what Ulle was to Wonderboy: too happy with a 2nd place. Only Contador can beat Froome. Only Contador would be willing to risk it all. I hope he gets back to his spring of '14 form. Does he have enough left in the tank?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Back to Bertie (the best Spanish rider of his generation BTW), he was nowhere near fresh at the start, I bet he'll be in top shape in July, if his team is strong and he gets half the support that Froome gets, I bet my dollar on him.

This man knows what he's talking about

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

Agree. And the same year at the Dauphine, he was clearly stronger than Dawg. Nairo is to Froome what Ulle was to Wonderboy: too happy with a 2nd place. Only Contador can beat Froome. Only Contador would be willing to risk it all. I hope he gets back to his spring of '14 form. Does he have enough left in the tank?

Exactly.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

In the deep, deep freeze here and yesterday I watched T-A 2014. Contador while holding a slim lead went from 32km out, hunted down the break 4+ minutes ahead and won the stage and the race with total Panache by over 2 minutes on Nairito. Who else in the modern day peloton does this kind of thing? Total class with an adventurous spirit; he's the man!

Agree. And the same year at the Dauphine, he was clearly stronger than Dawg. Nairo is to Froome what Ulle was to Wonderboy: too happy with a 2nd place. Only Contador can beat Froome. Only Contador would be willing to risk it all. I hope he gets back to his spring of '14 form. Does he have enough left in the tank?

I don't get it. Everyone is just hating Quintana and says he doesnt attack enough, he is happy with 2nd places, Quintana has no chance against Contador and Froome,...
Why the hell does everyone say that? Only because of last years tour. Only because he attacked too late in La Toussuire? Does everyone forget that he attacked from far out on the Stelvio 2014? Does everyone forget that he was extremely aggressive in the first half of the tdf 2013? Does everyone forget that altough he wasn't aggressive enough in the La Toussuire stage he risked everything on the last alps stage and did everything to win and maybe even would have succeeded if froome's teammates weren't so good that day. And especially DOES EVERYONE FORGET THAT THINGS CAN CHANGE?
Yeah, Alberto is aggressive, definitely more aggressive than Nairo but does that mean everyone else doesnt have a chance against froome? What if Quintana just has the better climbing shape than Froome. What if he is as good as froome but better than AC and one long range attack is enough to beat Froome. At the end its about the shape. Attacking can help to beat someone if you are weaker than him but it isnt a guarantee AND not attacking extremely surprising and often as Contador, doesnt mean you aren't aggressive and you definitely wont make an successful attack

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

@Rhubroma
Valverde has won a grand tour unless you don't consider the Vuelta a grand tour. I'm sure that fact was just an oversight on your part. I think that Valverde should be content with being one of the greatest Spanish champions of all time. That cannot be argued. He is, with Freire, the greatest classic/one day Spanish racer of all time. I don't have a problem with him believing he is the best. It's not completely ludicrous considering his palmares. Bahamontes, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Freire, Fuente and Ocana should all be given consideration. They are all great champions in my opinion.

Agreed, but winning multiple grand tours is different.

For what it is worth. The only other Spanish cyclist who even comes close to Contador's stature is Indurain, who today though would not be winning Grand Tours.

I have to disagree. In my book Indurain is still ahead of Contador. His 5 consecutive TDF including 2 doubles, plus Olympic TT gold and WC RR medals, tops Contador's 9(7) GT's

That is neither here, nor there. You have to consider would a top Indurian have beaten a top Contador (let's say 93 vs 09). Not in a million years mate. In fact, I don't believe Indurain would even win the Tour during this generation as he was too big, unless there were several long TTs and very mild mountains.

Oh no, no my friend, you can't compare different era's. Today's Valverde would beat Kelly and even Merckx in all of the hilly classics, Cancellara would beat De Vlaeminck and Van Looy, and freaking Froome would beat Fausto Coppi! But that doesn't mean they're better, on the contrary. Every era has it's own champions, great champions are measured by results against their own contemporaries, and by the level of success and dominance against them. Not by speculation what would they do in another time!

 

[Tonton]

It's not a matter of hating Quintana. I don't think anyone here does. And yes, he can change. But let's recognize that it's one thing to beat up on the small (Rolland-caliber) guys like he did at the '14 Giro, and another to face the very top guys. And when racing with the big boys, his b@lls seem to shrink . Considering his ability, what a waste. He's no Pantani, that's for sure. And I disagree with your other point: he didn't "risk everything" on the last stage in the Alps. What did he put on the line? Nothing. Worst case scenario, he blew up and finished with Piti, remaining second overall.

 

[dacooley]

the bottom line is if someone is not a rider of contador's or pantani's calibre it doesn't really make sense to call him a pussy and idiot.

Every era has it's own champions, great champions are measured by results against their own contemporaries, and by the level of success and dominance against them. Not by speculation what would they do in another time!

sure. the future champions will definitely surpass the verbier power output and beat pantani's alpe d'huez record. does it mean they'll be more talented? scarcely likely. so any tries to compare riders from different eras are meaningless.

 

[mikelarriola]

Re: Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist

Not every cyclist, I give you Fuente De! He who risks the most sometimes takes the prize

#deep

If Contador knows that he can win stages and beat Purito in the overall without a big attack like that... he wouldn´t do it. Every body do a crazy attack when he knows that is the only thing he can do. But are other type of cyclist, that don´t attack when they lost all too.. that is Purito

 

[infeXio]

Re: Re:

Quintana only attacked without risking anything. He didnt do it when he had to in order to win, which was on the glandon on stage 19 and on the early and steep part of the CdF a day later. But hey, at least he showed sportsmanship.

Like every cyclist

Not every cyclist, I give you Fuente De! He who risks the most sometimes takes the prize

#deep

If Contador knows that he can win stages and beat Purito in the overall without a big attack like that... he wouldn´t do it. Every body do a crazy attack when he knows that is the only thing he can do. But are other type of cyclist, that don´t attack when they lost all too.. that is Purito

You sure you're not taxus? Rofl.