Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[bambino]

Re: Re:

Might be, though there were guys in that break who had ambitions for stage win who would've probably made their effort regardless. In any case, those are the risks you need to take to win the race.

Not working would have given Contador a too big advantage for the fight for the stage. Therefore the riders from the break who worked with tinkoff and movistar probably would have stopped.

Totally disagree on this, for the rest of the gang maybe. Movistar would've tried to the last man standing as this was their best chance to win the Vuelta. Too much at stake to allow Froome getting back. Tinkoff could've waited to see Nairo's doms cooked and measure at that stage what is the best way to get rid of Nairo.

Pointless discussion to be fair I just realized as AC regardless would've not have the legs to fight against Nairo. He took the best he could and is close to podium. Astonished still about his form, i.e. Chaves was more than a aminute quicker in final climb that wasn't really that hard and the stage was fairly short anyway.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Might be, though there were guys in that break who had ambitions for stage win who would've probably made their effort regardless. In any case, those are the risks you need to take to win the race.

Well, as i said before, when you have to take time back from 4 or 5 riders, you cannot beat them all in one stage...unless you´re Superman. Step by step.

Anyway it´s pretty obvious Alberto has not the legs to beat Quintana. Especially in the mountains. Something really extraordinary should occur to make that happen.

Exactly. Maybe he will work with Froome or Chaves to gain time on Quintana at a different point

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

Might be, though there were guys in that break who had ambitions for stage win who would've probably made their effort regardless. In any case, those are the risks you need to take to win the race.

Well, as i said before, when you have to take time back from 4 or 5 riders, you cannot beat them all in one stage...unless you´re Superman. Step by step.

Anyway it´s pretty obvious Alberto has not the legs to beat Quintana. Especially in the mountains. Something really extraordinary should occur to make that happen.

Exactly. Maybe he will work with Froome or Chaves to gain time on Quintana at a different point

Chaves - maybe - AC appreciates those from Colombia ...

 

[Kwibus]

What an crazy discussions about who performed better between quintana and contador.

Quintana obviously is stronger than Contador this Vuelta. Quintana praised Contador for being a great strategist obviously showing that Contador was the initiator of the attack. Contador obviously needed either Sky or Movistar to join him in his attack.
Now Sky completely cracked, but if Movistar missed the attack then Contadors assault would've failed so they were both happy to have eachothers help there. They both had plenty to gain and I'm sure Contador would've wanted to win the stage, but he only could've done that if he didn't work in the attack with his current form, but then the coorperation of the attack would've stopped.

Actually I'm happy with all the riders in that attack yesterday as they all had their share of work, allthough I'm sure some knew they wouldn't gain much from it besides contributing to an epic stage.

 

[Ariane]

Oh - the sweet voice of reason...........

 

[buchanan]

Re: Re:

Well clearly he didn't force Quintana to work on the flat enough. Contador held all the cards there. If Brambilla was able to follow Quintana, there's no excuse for Contador to have been too tired to follow Quintana yesterday

I know he initiated the attack and would have spent a lot there but there's absolutely no way Contador shouldn't have finished first out of the GC guys yesterday

What? Quintana is just stronger uphill, it's been that way the entire Vuelta. Brambilla didn't do as much work as Contador and Quintana which is why he could stay with Quintana.
In what way should Contador have forced Quintana to take pulls? He was taking pulls. Should Contador have told his teammates not to work anymore? It was in his best interest to get a large gap as well. And would a couple more pulls by Quintana have made him those 30s slower? Wouldn't other riders have been present as well, if Quintana had been slow enough that Contador could stick with him? Would Quintana have been willing to give Contador the stage or would Contador have had to beat him in the sprint as well? I suppose you could argue Contador should have done way less work and let Quintana do way more work, but do you think Movistar and the other members of the break would have agreed with that?

Surely if Contador is only interested in the win, making Movistar do all the work would have been the best strategy. Or, if they didn't, then try to attack them again - at least once a reasonable gap had been established. As it is, he is further behind the lead than he was at the start of the day.

If he was riding for the podium and the highest possible position,then he did well and it was a great move and good tactics. If he was aiming to win the race, it was a poor move that has left him further behind.

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

Yep, that's a very fair point. Very unlikely the break would have stayed away without Quintana in it. Movistar would have swallowed it up by the second climb.

Completely right. The break would not have stood a chance if Quintana had not joined it. Movistar would have had about 5-6 riders to chase it down. And Froome would have helped with that too.
Was a great stage to watch - hats off to Contador, Brambilla and Quintana and their teamamtes.
To be clear (cos I don't want to be attacked for being 'negative' about him), Alberto impressed and did a lot to animate the stage and the Vuelta. But it's a huge exaggeration and twist of the facts to say that Alberto 'won' the Vuelta for Quintana.

 

[Miburo]

It's an exaggeration, without contador's move Quintana wouldn't have gained anything from this stage.

So of course Contador together with quintana being the best, are the reasons he'll win the vuelta.

But don't count your chickens until...

You never know what happens, remember giro this year

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

[quote="

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana and the win. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

.

Someone else up-thread referred to a crash that made the split happen, but I didn't see the stage itself, and these two posts are literally the only two mentions of a crash I've seen across a range of media. So was there actually a crash when Contador was attacking downhill, and was it before or after the attack?

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

[quote="

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana and the win. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

.

Someone else up-thread referred to a crash that made the split happen, but I didn't see the stage itself, and these two posts are literally the only two mentions of a crash I've seen across a range of media. So was there actually a crash when Contador was attacking downhill, and was it before or after the attack?

There has been at least 3-4 last pages of discussion in yesterday's stage thread about that crash. I guess it is somewhat proven (some media confirmations even from DS's) that there indeed was a crash of Lotto rider just before AC accelerated in the descent. What is not proven is whether that had real difference for the break to get away or not.

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

[quote="

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana and the win. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

.

Someone else up-thread referred to a crash that made the split happen, but I didn't see the stage itself, and these two posts are literally the only two mentions of a crash I've seen across a range of media. So was there actually a crash when Contador was attacking downhill, and was it before or after the attack?

There has been at least 3-4 last pages of discussion in yesterday's stage thread about that crash. I guess it is somewhat proven (some media confirmations even from DS's) that there indeed was a crash of Lotto rider just before AC accelerated in the descent. What is not proven is whether that had real difference for the break to get away or not.

Thanks for this - I don't think the discussion was in the stage thread, as I read through that last night and don't remember seeing anything, but would be great if you could point me in the direction of that as be interested to find out more what happened - I've no agenda here, I've just literally not seen any other mention of a crash!

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

[quote="

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana and the win. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

.

Someone else up-thread referred to a crash that made the split happen, but I didn't see the stage itself, and these two posts are literally the only two mentions of a crash I've seen across a range of media. So was there actually a crash when Contador was attacking downhill, and was it before or after the attack?

There has been at least 3-4 last pages of discussion in yesterday's stage thread about that crash. I guess it is somewhat proven (some media confirmations even from DS's) that there indeed was a crash of Lotto rider just before AC accelerated in the descent. What is not proven is whether that had real difference for the break to get away or not.

Thanks for this - I don't think the discussion was in the stage thread, as I read through that last night and don't remember seeing anything, but would be great if you could point me in the direction of that as be interested to find out more what happened - I've no agenda here, I've just literally not seen any other mention of a crash!

It is there, but it only started this morning (Europe time zones), thus you probably didn't see that last night.

From this page on there is lot of speculations about the crash.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31349&start=1060

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

Well clearly he didn't force Quintana to work on the flat enough. Contador held all the cards there. If Brambilla was able to follow Quintana, there's no excuse for Contador to have been too tired to follow Quintana yesterday

I know he initiated the attack and would have spent a lot there but there's absolutely no way Contador shouldn't have finished first out of the GC guys yesterday

What? Quintana is just stronger uphill, it's been that way the entire Vuelta. Brambilla didn't do as much work as Contador and Quintana which is why he could stay with Quintana.
In what way should Contador have forced Quintana to take pulls? He was taking pulls. Should Contador have told his teammates not to work anymore? It was in his best interest to get a large gap as well. And would a couple more pulls by Quintana have made him those 30s slower? Wouldn't other riders have been present as well, if Quintana had been slow enough that Contador could stick with him? Would Quintana have been willing to give Contador the stage or would Contador have had to beat him in the sprint as well? I suppose you could argue Contador should have done way less work and let Quintana do way more work, but do you think Movistar and the other members of the break would have agreed with that?

Surely if Contador is only interested in the win, making Movistar do all the work would have been the best strategy. Or, if they didn't, then try to attack them again - at least once a reasonable gap had been established. As it is, he is further behind the lead than he was at the start of the day.

If he was riding for the podium and the highest possible position,then he did well and it was a great move and good tactics. If he was aiming to win the race, it was a poor move that has left him further behind.

Considering that before the stage Alberto was way behind of many of his rivals in the GC, that was the best strategy to fight for the win, for the podium and for any other goal.

When you´re 2nd in the GC you just have to focus on the leader. When you have to take time back from other riders too, you cannot beat them all in one stage.

This.

And chappeau to Contador. What a champion.

 

[RownhamHill]

Re: Re:

[quote="

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana and the win. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

.

Someone else up-thread referred to a crash that made the split happen, but I didn't see the stage itself, and these two posts are literally the only two mentions of a crash I've seen across a range of media. So was there actually a crash when Contador was attacking downhill, and was it before or after the attack?

There has been at least 3-4 last pages of discussion in yesterday's stage thread about that crash. I guess it is somewhat proven (some media confirmations even from DS's) that there indeed was a crash of Lotto rider just before AC accelerated in the descent. What is not proven is whether that had real difference for the break to get away or not.

Thanks for this - I don't think the discussion was in the stage thread, as I read through that last night and don't remember seeing anything, but would be great if you could point me in the direction of that as be interested to find out more what happened - I've no agenda here, I've just literally not seen any other mention of a crash!

It is there, but it only started this morning (Europe time zones), thus you probably didn't see that last night.

From this page on there is lot of speculations about the crash.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31349&start=1060

Ahhh, that will be it then as I did read the race thread last night. I'll go and have a look now, thanks for the link!

 

[fantomas]

Let's get it straight how the break came about.

Brambilla attacked, Contador and others followed, Froome was caught off guard, but reeled them in. Then Contador immediately attacked on the downhill, pushing max for several kilometres, and the rest is history.

 

[TeflonDub]

Re: Re:

[quote="

This - AC was clearly racing for podium, not against Quintana and the win. It was actually very lucky for him Quintana made it to the break as well and was not caught by the crash like the others.

.

Someone else up-thread referred to a crash that made the split happen, but I didn't see the stage itself, and these two posts are literally the only two mentions of a crash I've seen across a range of media. So was there actually a crash when Contador was attacking downhill, and was it before or after the attack?

There has been at least 3-4 last pages of discussion in yesterday's stage thread about that crash. I guess it is somewhat proven (some media confirmations even from DS's) that there indeed was a crash of Lotto rider just before AC accelerated in the descent. What is not proven is whether that had real difference for the break to get away or not.

Van der Sande crashed while in the first group. Sounds like a bit of a stretch to hear that as the reason the people who got left behind got left behind! https://twitter.com/toshvds/status/772491926725591040

 

[burning]

Re: Re:

This is hilarious.

I apologize on behalf of us sane AC haters out there.

I don't know why Libertine takes this guy seriously, this guy said that Gerrans is the biggest disappointment of the season as he was supposed to be next Froome/Wiggins.

You aren't the quickest cookie. I didn't meant Gerrans. I meant Geraint.

I also think that MacBAir should also complain about that descent, here is an example for him:

It was a dangerous start. I had to unclip on the first corner and I immediately lost 150 meters to my group. After that, I didn’t want to take any more unnecessary risks. I don’t think people want to see a race decided on the downhill. We don’t want to see riders crashes. A start like that shouldn’t be allowed.

What were you doing when Froome won that stage attacking downhill in this years' tour? Crying because he broke Alberto?

Check my posts during that stage bro, you need to take a chill pill

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Well clearly he didn't force Quintana to work on the flat enough. Contador held all the cards there. If Brambilla was able to follow Quintana, there's no excuse for Contador to have been too tired to follow Quintana yesterday

I know he initiated the attack and would have spent a lot there but there's absolutely no way Contador shouldn't have finished first out of the GC guys yesterday

What? Quintana is just stronger uphill, it's been that way the entire Vuelta. Brambilla didn't do as much work as Contador and Quintana which is why he could stay with Quintana.
In what way should Contador have forced Quintana to take pulls? He was taking pulls. Should Contador have told his teammates not to work anymore? It was in his best interest to get a large gap as well. And would a couple more pulls by Quintana have made him those 30s slower? Wouldn't other riders have been present as well, if Quintana had been slow enough that Contador could stick with him? Would Quintana have been willing to give Contador the stage or would Contador have had to beat him in the sprint as well? I suppose you could argue Contador should have done way less work and let Quintana do way more work, but do you think Movistar and the other members of the break would have agreed with that?

With Froome 2 minutes down the road, Quintana and Movistar would have agreed to absolutely anything. The fact that Quintana was not absolutely exhausted by the time the final climb came about is proof that Contador messed up. Even in this shape, he should have gained a good 30s on Quintana, not lost 30s

 

[Ataraxus]

4 years ago, today Alberto made the move which won him the Vuelta and put him for good in the pantheon of cycling champions.
Facebook reminded me :razz:

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Even in this shape, he should have gained a good 30s on Quintana, not lost 30s

I don't mean to offend but that is nonsense, sorry. We have no idea how many more turns Quintana would have had to do and how many less Contador, so that Contador would be 1 minute faster. And as for my other question, wouldn't other riders like Brambilla be right on Contador's wheel to outsprint him?
It's a shame he didn't win but he just wasn't strong enough. Same for the Peña Cabarga stage, I'm sure he really wanted to win but it wasn't meant to be.
If he had sat back, been outsprinted by Brambilla and with the resulting incoherence in the front group had only gained 1 minute or so on Froome, people would call him stupid too. Whatever he does, it's always wrong for some people.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

4 years ago, today Alberto made the move which won him the Vuelta and put him for good in the pantheon of cycling champions.
Facebook reminded me :razz:

yep

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Even in this shape, he should have gained a good 30s on Quintana, not lost 30s

I don't mean to offend but that is nonsense, sorry. We have no idea how many more turns Quintana would have had to do and how many less Contador, so that Contador would be 1 minute faster. And as for my other question, wouldn't other riders like Brambilla be right on Contador's wheel to outsprint him?
It's a shame he didn't win but he just wasn't strong enough. Same for the Peña Cabarga stage, I'm sure he really wanted to win but it wasn't meant to be.
If he had sat back, been outsprinted by Brambilla and with the resulting incoherence in the front group had only gained 1 minute or so on Froome, people would call him stupid too. Whatever he does, it's always wrong for some people.

Contador lost less time on La Camperona to Quintana. Surely you see the problem with your argument? And I'm not talking about the stage win, Brambilla can take it. But even if he gained 90 seconds on Froome instead of 150, it's irrelevant, because at this point Quintana is the leader and the guy Contador really needs to focus on dropping if he wants to win

Unless of course Contador is just aiming for a podium with no ambition of winning

 

[LaFlorecita]

No. If he wants to win, he needs to close the gap to all rivals, not just to Quintana. I'm sure he could have lost less time to Quintana if he hadn't blown himself up (he actually managed to limit his losses somewhat on La Camperona and also on Aubisque), but he wanted to go for the stage victory.

 

[Scarponi]

So where are the people who said Alberto's team mates hate him? 100km of burying themselves does not really prove that theory. I guess the ones that do can be happy paving Kreuziger to 11th

 

[samhocking]

Lets not forget how much of a critical role the race radio played alongside live TV coverage in the DS cars for Contador to know to make that attack. Steven de Jongh said "We could see Froome was not there, Chaves was not there. You could see that, it was live on television, so I could see the composition of the race quite good, so we could inform the riders and then they all knew it was gonna be, yeah, a very hard day and spectacular day".

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

With Froome 2 minutes down the road, Quintana and Movistar would have agreed to absolutely anything. The fact that Quintana was not absolutely exhausted by the time the final climb came about is proof that Contador messed up. Even in this shape, he should have gained a good 30s on Quintana, not lost 30s

Quite the contrary. Quintana pulled that entire climb, that's what Contador wanted. Also the best use of having a rider like Nairo Quintana in the break. Had Contador not cramped up in the end he would taken the stage win or at least a second place behind Brambilla in the sprint, gained a whole chunk of time on everyone but Nairo and even a few seconds on him. Absolutely the best case scenario at that point.

What you're thinking of is totally unfeasible in reality. It's impossible to guess at what Movistar would've done had Tinkoff decided to sit up, and what a few more pulls from Nairo would've meant. You had no idea what Froome's legs where like out back. You'd be willing to risk everything on maybe taking a few more seconds on Nairo, by all likelihood gaining a fair chunk less time on Froome? And risking all of it being for naught, and losing minutes on tired legs on a regrouped peloton, with a lot of relatively fresh Movistar legs on that last climb?