Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

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Jun 5, 2014
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The best climber in history wasn't "spinning". Look at Pantani. Constantly on the pedals, dancing and pushing a big gear (not as big as Ullrich/ Indurain).

Spinning high rpm didn't help Lance at Courchevel 2000 when the pirate was dancing away. Just like it won't help Froome to spin like crazy when Alberto responds and dances away while Dawg is recovering from his own attack.

No one should buy Brailsfraud's talks about training. Cadence doens't make a difference in general. For individuals yes, one can improve with higher cadence or pushing bigger gears.
 
Aug 15, 2012
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I'm think Brailsford's new french champion will be a hybrid rider who uses both high cadence and pedal dancing. It's too bad froome cannot hit 88mph, go to the future, and learn from him.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Dr. Juice said:
The best climber in history wasn't "spinning". Look at Pantani. Constantly on the pedals, dancing and pushing a big gear (not as big as Ullrich/ Indurain).

Spinning high rpm didn't help Lance at Courchevel 2000 when the pirate was dancing away. Just like it won't help Froome to spin like crazy when Alberto responds and dances away while Dawg is recovering from his own attack.

No one should buy Brailsfraud's talks about training. Cadence doens't make a difference in general. For individuals yes, one can improve with higher cadence or pushing bigger gears.

Completely agreed on the bold. The high rpm worship is ridiculous.

....& BTW the high cadence BS goes back to LA & Bruyneel.
 
Apr 3, 2009
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hfer07 said:
Completely agreed on the bold. The high rpm worship is ridiculous.

....& BTW the high cadence BS goes back to LA & Bruyneel.

Well to be fair it is one of those lies based in truth, making it not go away.

They did adjust his cadence to take the pressure off his musculoskeletal system and load his cardio-vascular system to take advantage of the EPO and later blood doping as opposed to the steroid cocktail he was using before.

Compare the builds, gearing and riding styles of 80's and early 90's riders to those afterward. Builds shifted from huge legs and big gears to increasingly slender riders spinning faster. Part of it is technique evolution but a lot of it is drug evolution. Steroids to oxygen vector drugs and techniques.
 
Nov 26, 2012
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LaFlorecita said:
Yeah. We saw that at the Dauphiné.
Classic:cool:

hfer07 said:
Completely agreed on the bold. The high rpm worship is ridiculous.

....& BTW the high cadence BS goes back to LA & Bruyneel.

afaik, the rpm thingy is usually euphemism for "we need to talk in clinic".


Leaving that aside, when i see AC, its a poetic motion. its as if he is dancing.
You can see the same in Quintana. for me, dancing is a combination of pedalling action and the associated vibes.

when i see dawg, it looks as if he is a toy robot on a cycle.

who dances best in cycle? for me, it is bertie 2009.
 
Jul 10, 2009
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red_flanders said:
Well to be fair it is one of those lies based in truth, making it not go away.

They did adjust his cadence to take the pressure off his musculoskeletal system and load his cardio-vascular system to take advantage of the EPO and later blood doping as opposed to the steroid cocktail he was using before.

Compare the builds, gearing and riding styles of 80's and early 90's riders to those afterward. Builds shifted from huge legs and big gears to increasingly slender riders spinning faster. Part of it is technique evolution but a lot of it is drug evolution. Steroids to oxygen vector drugs and techniques.

You are very correct, I know this from riding experience, high cadence transfers the work effort from your legs to your cardio system. I have been using that of late and it makes climbing much easier but your intercostal lung muscles have to build up, your breathing has got to right and you need plenty of oxygen flowing in your system. Your post explains something I have been trying to figure out of late, how is it that these riders are so skinny and I remember LA's cheek bones were visible, Rasmussen's ribs were visible, yet they had so much extra oxygen. I was thinking of getting Smart water, that joke of a maketing ploy which says water with extra oxygen injected. Can't believe people are falling for that gimmick and buying it :)
 
May 15, 2011
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dwxp3p.png


:eek:
 
May 15, 2011
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Vino attacks everyone said:
AC and Nibbles to join forces in the upcoming weeks to take down Froome dawg :)
#myavatarcanseeintothefuture

Can you post a full size pic? For my personal picture collection :p
 
Aug 4, 2010
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Great pic Flo:),lol at that comment 'well he should eat more then' .This guy probably doesnt have a clue who Christopher Froome is:eek::D
 
Oct 17, 2011
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hfer07 said:
Completely agreed on the bold. The high rpm worship is ridiculous.

....& BTW the high cadence BS goes back to LA & Bruyneel.

And what do you base that on? In fact u can't say low cadence is best, high cadence is best. The Ideal cadence is different for every rider. Why? Because is is based on his/her power output. When pushing 400watt the ideal cadence is 90rpm. When pushing 500 ideal cadence is 100rpm. This way the force peak stays at a acceptable level.

More info:

"More observations on the physiological advantages of having high pedaling cadences while climbing...

The following article illustrates some of the factors concerning the advantages of high pedal rates in relation to the power manifested at varying RPMs.

By ideal pedaling cadence we mean the rate that requires the least consumption of oxygen and/or the lowest cardiac frequency. (Eur.J.Appl.Physiol 53:339-342, 1985).

Note how the most ‘profitable’ (ideal) rate gets gradually higher with the increase of power output from the rider (see graph, below), referred to climbing.

Watts1.jpg


is probably a physiological adjustment that occurs in order to avoid excessive force peaks with each pedal rotation (see graph, below).

2lines.jpg


A pedal rate at 90 RPM will in fact have markedly lower force peaks (expressed in kilos)in comparison with a rate of 60 RPM.

"For every power level developed there exists an ideal pedaling cadence that grows linearly with the increase of force (cf. Article: “High RPM: further observations”).

If, thanks to specific training regimens, one succeeds in pedaling at ideal cadences, one finds that high force peaks are not necessary, even for significant power levels.

Even Lance Armstrong, for example, when he pushes 500 Watts at 100 RPM, develops force peaks at each pedal stroke of less than 60 kg.

Force peaks become more important in acceleration and in spurts: at 900 Watts of power with 100 RPM, the force required for every pedal stroke surpass 100 kg. But at this power level the ideal rate is around 125 RPM, thus reducing the required force to about 80 kg.


"Pedaling at 60 RPM (revolutions per minute) or at 90 RPM during an uphill course: what are the effects on performance, tiredness and recovery?

At 60 RPM it takes 1.0 second for the crank to make a complete revolution (360º), at 90 RPM it only takes 0.66 seconds that is 34% less.

The contraction time of the muscles involved in pedaling, decrease thus of that same percentage.
During the muscle contraction phase, blood flow (and so the oxygen carrying) to the single fiber, especially the most profound ones, lessens because of the increased pressure within the working muscles.

Moreover, in terms of equal power output supplied by the cyclist, a cadence of 60 RPM requires a 34% more of applied force to each push on the pedals, compared to a cadence of 90 RPM. This means a heavier load for muscles, tendons and lower limbs-lumbar joints.

It is easy to realize the advantages of a more “agile” pedaling cadence, especially when the rider is busy with an all-out effort, as soon as the oxygen carrying becomes the limiting factor of his performance.

Also the recovery between 2 or more efforts, within just one training session or race, or even within the next days, takes advantage from an agile pedaling cadence, whereas the risk of injuries or overworking lesions increases with lower RPMs.

A high pedaling cadence also improves the pumping function of skeletal muscles, the most important factor in defining systemic venous return of the blood to the heart.
This peripheral pump plays a critical role in circulatory functional
capacity, and can be viewed as a second heart."

"Usually the racers maintain an average rate of around 95-100 RPMs over a time trial of this length in similar conditions.
But there are exceptions. A real specialist like Gonchar produces average rates of 70-80 RPM, and Gonzalez de Galdeano and Botero pedal at 80-90 RPM.
All push very high gears.

Their time trial results are excellent, but how will they do on the climbs in the Pyrenees that will bring on huge fatigue and tax the riders’ powers of recovery? Joints and muscle fiber will have to face these stress factors and produce, at every turn of the pedal, pressures that can reach 100 kilos."

So basically higher power output, higher cadence. Look at Froome's attack on the Mont Ventoux. For a short period of time his rpm was around 120. That is the ideal cadence because he was probably pushing around 700w.

Saying 'high rpm is BS' is just silly. Look at Nibali during the tdf 2012, Contador during the Vuelta 12 all adjusting cadence based on power output.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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yespatterns said:
They'll figure it out on the road for sure. MichelleCound, i mean SeriousSam, want to make an avatar bet?

I'm not Michelle Cound though the comparison is flattering as I'd like to be the significant other of a famous sports person too. Maria Sharapova's boyfriend perhaps.

I don't understand why people seem to be so upset with my keen observations, even been put on ignore. :eek:


I won't part with my current beloved avatar lightly but in the interest of putting my money where my mouth is, I'll accept the bet. What terms do you propose?
 
Jul 25, 2011
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What's exactly Jesus expectations? Seeing Zaugg performances in Austria:mad:


I hope the soviet boss send Jesus to Siberia at the end of the season:p
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Forunculo said:
What's exactly Jesus expectations? Seeing Zaugg performances in Austria:mad:


I hope the soviet boss send Jesus to Siberia at the end of the season:p

I think his job, as was Majka's, was to stay out of harms way and make it in within the time cut. Mission accomplished.
 
Apr 30, 2011
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Forunculo said:
What's exactly Jesus expectations? Seeing Zaugg performances in Austria:mad:


I hope the soviet boss send Jesus to Siberia at the end of the season:p
He always does this. Use as little energy in the stages where he's no help, and ready to help Alberto on the climbs in the third week.
 
May 15, 2011
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Jesus is there as mental support for Alberto, replace him with Zaugg and Alberto would have less chance to win.
 
Apr 30, 2011
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Yes I have always noticed how the Tony Martins of this world - big riders who can produce the most absolute power - always spins a light gear, whereas the tiny climbers who cannot produce nearly as much power are the ones pushing the big gears...

I mean just compare Alberto and Grabsch in TTs.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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webbie146 said:
And what do you base that on? In fact u can't say low cadence is best, high cadence is best. The Ideal cadence is different for every rider. Why? Because is is based on his/her power output. When pushing 400watt the ideal cadence is 90rpm. When pushing 500 ideal cadence is 100rpm. This way the force peak stays at a acceptable level.

More info:

"More observations on the physiological advantages of having high pedaling cadences while climbing...

The following article illustrates some of the factors concerning the advantages of high pedal rates in relation to the power manifested at varying RPMs.

By ideal pedaling cadence we mean the rate that requires the least consumption of oxygen and/or the lowest cardiac frequency. (Eur.J.Appl.Physiol 53:339-342, 1985).

Note how the most ‘profitable’ (ideal) rate gets gradually higher with the increase of power output from the rider (see graph, below), referred to climbing.

Watts1.jpg


is probably a physiological adjustment that occurs in order to avoid excessive force peaks with each pedal rotation (see graph, below).

2lines.jpg


A pedal rate at 90 RPM will in fact have markedly lower force peaks (expressed in kilos)in comparison with a rate of 60 RPM.

"For every power level developed there exists an ideal pedaling cadence that grows linearly with the increase of force (cf. Article: “High RPM: further observations”).

If, thanks to specific training regimens, one succeeds in pedaling at ideal cadences, one finds that high force peaks are not necessary, even for significant power levels.

Even Lance Armstrong, for example, when he pushes 500 Watts at 100 RPM, develops force peaks at each pedal stroke of less than 60 kg

Force peaks become more important in acceleration and in spurts: at 900 Watts of power with 100 RPM, the force required for every pedal stroke surpass 100 kg. But at this power level the ideal rate is around 125 RPM, thus reducing the required force to about 80 kg.


"Pedaling at 60 RPM (revolutions per minute) or at 90 RPM during an uphill course: what are the effects on performance, tiredness and recovery?

At 60 RPM it takes 1.0 second for the crank to make a complete revolution (360º), at 90 RPM it only takes 0.66 seconds that is 34% less.

The contraction time of the muscles involved in pedaling, decrease thus of that same percentage.
During the muscle contraction phase, blood flow (and so the oxygen carrying) to the single fiber, especially the most profound ones, lessens because of the increased pressure within the working muscles.

Moreover, in terms of equal power output supplied by the cyclist, a cadence of 60 RPM requires a 34% more of applied force to each push on the pedals, compared to a cadence of 90 RPM. This means a heavier load for muscles, tendons and lower limbs-lumbar joints.

It is easy to realize the advantages of a more “agile” pedaling cadence, especially when the rider is busy with an all-out effort, as soon as the oxygen carrying becomes the limiting factor of his performance.

Also the recovery between 2 or more efforts, within just one training session or race, or even within the next days, takes advantage from an agile pedaling cadence, whereas the risk of injuries or overworking lesions increases with lower RPMs.

A high pedaling cadence also improves the pumping function of skeletal muscles, the most important factor in defining systemic venous return of the blood to the heart.
This peripheral pump plays a critical role in circulatory functional
capacity, and can be viewed as a second heart."

"Usually the racers maintain an average rate of around 95-100 RPMs over a time trial of this length in similar conditions.
But there are exceptions. A real specialist like Gonchar produces average rates of 70-80 RPM, and Gonzalez de Galdeano and Botero pedal at 80-90 RPM.
All push very high gears.

Their time trial results are excellent, but how will they do on the climbs in the Pyrenees that will bring on huge fatigue and tax the riders’ powers of recovery? Joints and muscle fiber will have to face these stress factors and produce, at every turn of the pedal, pressures that can reach 100 kilos."

So basically higher power output, higher cadence. Look at Froome's attack on the Mont Ventoux. For a short period of time his rpm was around 120. That is the ideal cadence because he was probably pushing around 700w.

Saying 'high rpm is BS' is just silly. Look at Nibali during the tdf 2012, Contador during the Vuelta 12 all adjusting cadence based on power output.

There are two key elements in the bold parts:
1-) When I mentioned "the High Cadence BS" I meant that nowadays is the "default approach" rather than training for "optimum/Ideal Cadence"- nowadays we see riders just "spinning" for the sake of it.
2-) When your quote Ferrari on Lance Armstrong- the argument by itself is rubbish, well knowing what took place.
3-) High Cadence has always been linked to "clinic matters" -like it or not ;) and that's the main reason I call it BS