Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

It's perfectly possible he's not anymore what he was in 2014 but it's equally likely that it was all planned for superpeak in tour 2015.

No way to tell, you'll know in 6 weeks. Until then wait and enjoy dauphine/suisse.

All we know for sure is that contador said before the giro he wasn't in the shape of tour 2014. So that's telling of wht the plan is.

Doesn't ac generally play down his shape regardless of whether it's good or not?

Not always, before dauphiné 14' and Tour 14' he was saying that he was having a great momentum of form and watching this Giro I think you've got your answer, he was saying the truth here as well.

 

[Carols]

Despite what we think about his team, Alberto is always classy. He knows without his team mate he won't be wearing the jersey.

Q: You shown you’re very strong but it’s perhaps right to say you won alone against a very strong Astana team. Which of your teammates will you take to the Tour de France?

AC: When I have teammates who give 100 per cent for me, and work the way they have at training camps before the Giro d'Italia and the Tour, I can only say thanks to them three times. Without them I wouldn’t have this [pink] jersey. There were moments when I went mano a mano with the Astana riders but you have to understand that the Astana team was at a superior level to everyone else. When we were in a group of 10 riders, five were from Astana, in a group of eight, there were four of them. In this Giro d'Italia. I can only say thanks to my team, and whatever things may have looked like from the outside, without my team I wouldn't have this jersey.

Pure Class. We can sit here and say they were weak but he is correct. They did their jobs to the best of their ability. They just weren't good enough to take on Astana.

 

[Poursuivant]

I just cannot see how such a demanding Giro as this has been, won't have an effect when it comes to the Tour. Obviously it depends if the likes of Froome don't crash or get sick, but if he is in the form he is capable of, I can't see Contador besting him over three weeks, not to mention Quintana, valverde, Nibali, etc etc etc. As great as the Giro has been, let's be honest the field hasn't been great.

 

[Carols]

Looks like he was dehydrated today. He can't underestimate the symptom again in the Tour.

"I was dehydrated. It sounds unlikely because it wasn't excessively hot, but this morning when I got up, I was underweight as a result of such a demanding stage yesterday. I didn't give it much thought, and I drank throughout the stage, but perhaps not as much as I should have, and I think it was a question of dehydration, not of hunger or food.

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/contador_it_was_a_case_of_dehydration/

Also from this article:

"The Giro d'Italia has been very, very demanidng. I knew it would be: the uphill finishes haven't had very high gradients, and for that reason some might have had the impression that the Giro wasn't too demanding, but the metres of climbing build up stage after stage, and every stage was high frantic as we chased down breakaways, and that made for a very fast race, and it has been a Giro of a great deal of wear and tear, much more than I would have liked. But when I decided to ride the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France, I knew I'd use a lot of energy in the Giro d'Italia. Now it's a moment to start to rest and recover and much as possible, starting tonight, and I'm thinking of being as good as I can be at the Tour."

IMO the Tour is now in very serious jeopardy. He will need a lot of R & R to rebuild the reserves he depleted in the last 3 weeks and there may not be enough time. We can count on him to give us a show even if he can't manage the win though!

 

[Electress]

Looks like he was dehydrated today. He can't underestimate the symptom again in the Tour.

"I was dehydrated. It sounds unlikely because it wasn't excessively hot, but this morning when I got up, I was underweight as a result of such a demanding stage yesterday. I didn't give it much thought, and I drank throughout the stage, but perhaps not as much as I should have, and I think it was a question of dehydration, not of hunger or food.

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/contador_it_was_a_case_of_dehydration/

Also from this article:

"The Giro d'Italia has been very, very demanidng. I knew it would be: the uphill finishes haven't had very high gradients, and for that reason some might have had the impression that the Giro wasn't too demanding, but the metres of climbing build up stage after stage, and every stage was high frantic as we chased down breakaways, and that made for a very fast race, and it has been a Giro of a great deal of wear and tear, much more than I would have liked. But when I decided to ride the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France, I knew I'd use a lot of energy in the Giro d'Italia. Now it's a moment to start to rest and recover and much as possible, starting tonight, and I'm thinking of being as good as I can be at the Tour."

IMO the Tour is now in very serious jeopardy. He will need a lot of R & R to rebuild the reserves he depleted in the last 3 weeks and there may not be enough time. We can count on him to give us a show even if he can't manage the win though!

I think he's being realistic about expectations here, not playing anything down. He's had a mentally and physically exhausting time of it.

I love the fact that he's loyal and supportive of the team, and they have worked hard for him. But there's no doubt that they haven't been good enough in the mountains to support him; he's been horribly isolated a lot of the time. Only part of that has been the ludicrous strength in depth of Astana.

I wonder whether he still intends to race the Route du Sud? Does he really need to ?

 

[Carols]

Looks like he was dehydrated today. He can't underestimate the symptom again in the Tour.

"I was dehydrated. It sounds unlikely because it wasn't excessively hot, but this morning when I got up, I was underweight as a result of such a demanding stage yesterday. I didn't give it much thought, and I drank throughout the stage, but perhaps not as much as I should have, and I think it was a question of dehydration, not of hunger or food.

http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/contador_it_was_a_case_of_dehydration/

Also from this article:

"The Giro d'Italia has been very, very demanidng. I knew it would be: the uphill finishes haven't had very high gradients, and for that reason some might have had the impression that the Giro wasn't too demanding, but the metres of climbing build up stage after stage, and every stage was high frantic as we chased down breakaways, and that made for a very fast race, and it has been a Giro of a great deal of wear and tear, much more than I would have liked. But when I decided to ride the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France, I knew I'd use a lot of energy in the Giro d'Italia. Now it's a moment to start to rest and recover and much as possible, starting tonight, and I'm thinking of being as good as I can be at the Tour."

IMO the Tour is now in very serious jeopardy. He will need a lot of R & R to rebuild the reserves he depleted in the last 3 weeks and there may not be enough time. We can count on him to give us a show even if he can't manage the win though!

I think he's being realistic about expectations here, not playing anything down. He's had a mentally and physically exhausting time of it.

I love the fact that he's loyal and supportive of the team, and they have worked hard for him. But there's no doubt that they haven't been good enough in the mountains to support him; he's been horribly isolated a lot of the time. Only part of that has been the ludicrous strength in depth of Astana.

I wonder whether he still intends to race the Route du Sud? Does he really need to ?

Yes I agreed, he is being totally genuine, this race has been very demanding, much more so than he planned for I think.

Geez why on earth would he need to do another race before the Tour. I certainly hope he reconsiders that agenda!

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

I see it a little differently. I don't think you have to "be the best" to be considered a winner of a certain gt. I think you have to finish the gt. If Rasmussen had finished, of course he would have been the winner regardless of what officials found out later. But he didn't finish hence it can only be said that AC is the winner. In the same way I only attribute the 2010 Tour and 2011 Giro to AC because he finished those races in 1st place.

So in other words:

Alright, so it's not winning the Tour on the road and proving yourself the best that matters, it's the parade ride into Paris that decides whether you're the real winner?

You have to race for 3 weeks to win a gt.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re:

I just cannot see how such a demanding Giro as this has been, won't have an effect when it comes to the Tour. Obviously it depends if the likes of Froome don't crash or get sick, but if he is in the form he is capable of, I can't see Contador besting him over three weeks, not to mention Quintana, valverde, Nibali, etc etc etc. As great as the Giro has been, let's be honest the field hasn't been great.

I do agree, this has certainly not been a walk in the park, I hope it wasn't too much for him even though what he showed today was really worrying because it can be interpreted as him already paying for the efforts in this Giro and fading.

The main hope lies in the fact that he was not peaking in this Giro but then again there's a duality for that:

-Either this has been a great training block and will provide him an extraordinary momentum of form for July

-OR this has only been a mini peak and that's the maximum he could do this season and will fade at the Tour due to serious fatigue/ tiredness.

We will find out in 5 weeks. Or even before in Route du sud if he takes part but that would be the dumbest decision really .

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Final podium excluding TTs:

Landa
Aru 0:01
Contador 0:52

I expect something better from you. Have these loonies become contagious? That is one of the dumbest most misleading stats imaginable.

Merckx Index's signal to noise ratio is probably the best in the entire forum. Wouldn't dismiss him immediately when he posts the uncomfortable truth than Contador's climbing was suspect in this Giro. Not sure what's "misleading" about this stat.

Slams head against desk. idk, perhaps because the itt and the contenders pre-conceived abilities before and the results after shaped the strategy and the dynamics of the entire effin race???

Leaves thread for awhile before the contagion spreads.

lol wtf? No one said Landa should be awarded the trophy. Everyone knows Contador is the rightful winner. What he posted though was the statistics of how he was climbing. I think that's relevant for the Alberto Contador thread.

Though it is a bit misleading since Contador also lost 40 in a mechanical.

 

[Lambanna]

Re: Re:

I just cannot see how such a demanding Giro as this has been, won't have an effect when it comes to the Tour. Obviously it depends if the likes of Froome don't crash or get sick, but if he is in the form he is capable of, I can't see Contador besting him over three weeks, not to mention Quintana, valverde, Nibali, etc etc etc. As great as the Giro has been, let's be honest the field hasn't been great.

I do agree, this has certainly not been a walk in the park, I hope it wasn't too much for him even though what he showed today was really worrying because it can be interpreted as him already paying for the efforts in this Giro and fading.

The main hope lies in the fact that he was not peaking in this Giro but then again there's a duality for that:

-Either this has been a great training block and will provide him an extraordinary momentum of form for July

-OR this has only been a mini peak and that's the maximum he could do this season and will fade at the Tour due to serious fatigue/ tiredness.

We will find out in 5 weeks. Or even before in Route du sud if he takes part but that would be the dumbest decision really .

Agreed with all of the above, if Contador wins the tour for me it will be his most impressive win in his career (that's saying something with the career he has had) but to win against 3 "fresher" riders if all stay fit and well in Quintana Froome and Nibali would be a win for the ages, still think he has a chance, it's just this giro has been so tough it has to have some impact on the man. Love the fact though cycling has a big 4 in an event again, that's not to demean recent grand tour winners such as Horner, hedjesdal, etc all very good cyclists but these guys are a level above, just read a great book called 4 kings about super middleweight boxing in the 80''s with hagler, hearns, Leonard and Duran who all brought the best out of each other and hopefully this tour sees similar effect.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Anyone know what he's referring to in that pic? His 3 Vuelta victories? Would be somewhat disrespectful to the tifosi.

Your constant trolling is getting you into the red zone Sam. Give it a break now until July eh.

Err it was clearly a joke. If you read Serious Sam's posting history you would know that he is just about the last guy who would get on Contador's case for saying 3 giros.

Some of the Contador fans need to lighten up. The way a few I won't name pretty much abuse any poster who comes in here to say something that they don't immediately recognize as praiseful of Contador, is far worse.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

Anyone know what he's referring to in that pic? His 3 Vuelta victories? Would be somewhat disrespectful to the tifosi.

Your constant trolling is getting you into the red zone Sam. Give it a break now until July eh.

Err it was clearly a joke. If you read Serious Sam's posting history you would know that he is just about the last guy who would get on Contador's case for saying 3 giros.

Some of the Contador fans need to lighten up. The way a few I won't name pretty much abuse any poster who comes in here to say something that they don't immediately recognize as praiseful of Contador, is far worse.

No kidding, the three musketeers (LaFlo, iLoveCycling, Carols) have this thread locked and under control. They are lucky I cant say anything negative about Bert otherwise this thread would turn into another Porte/Fetancur style fireworks

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Congratulations Alberto! It could have been a horrible day today but he got lucky. He's now one step closer to the greatest of all time:

1. Merckx - 11 Grand Tours
2. Hinault - 10
3. Contador - 9
4. Anquetil - 8
5. Armstrong - 7
5. Coppi - 7
5. Indurain - 7

Wrong! You people even don't believe yourself. Doping wins don't count, keep dreaming.

All of those victories have most likely involved doping. So if you are going to go after Alberto you need to be consistent.

Yes but they haven't been annulled yet. Contador was found positive. He won 2 GT's when he should've been banned. It's unfair to all the riders that didn't race when they were suspended that those 2 count. For once, think of other riders but AC. He shouldn't have been racing, therefore they do not count.

It us unfair. It's also unfair that some riders serve essentially life bans (ras, landis, Mosquera) while others (hesj) serve zero and others bribe uci to stop positive coming out etc.

Because of all these complications and the extreme difficulty in enforcing any kind of justice, many including most posters on here choose to take the simplest method - who actually won the race.

So Armstrong for example still won 7 and in any climbing or tt discussion I'll mention him just as I marco or mig. The punishment is he had to give back the jerseys, the prize money, get sued etc etc. And good. But this kind of discussion doesn't take that into account.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

(Apologies for discussing doping issues in this forum. I won't respond to this again).

Its about time the UCI gave everyone back their wins. Its a shambles of a farce of a pile of wasted Haribo's
We know who won. To try and deny Bertie or Armstrong is just F%%%ing stupid given what we know.

Eh, he won the 2011 Giro (note the past tense), he's just no longer listed as the official winner.

"Official" bodies might be able to rewrite official records but they can't change real history...what actually happened. People who recognize all AC's wins know it's not official. They just understand what actually happened.

If Rasmussen had finished, of course he would have been the winner regardless of what officials found out later.

Alright people, we don't count paper victories

We count the real ones

9

I wonder if you posters would maintain the same line if after finishing first in a GT, a rider was found to have a motor in his bike. Still the real winner?

Anyway, backdated bans are big dull ***. Contador was allowed to race and he won. So he's the winner. Any statistic which says different is a stupid joke.

Do you think Contador would have preferred to have been banned two years prospectively? He got to serve his suspension with no time off except for a few months in 2012,so he didn't lose any further time getting back into shape. He entered the Giro fully aware that if he lost his case his results would be void. When you've tested positive, you're lucky to be racing at all. Racing knowing that if you really did dope and it's ruled that way you'll lose those results is still a better deal than not being able to race at all.

Ask all the riders who testified against LA for USADA if they would have preferred to trade their 6 month suspensions and backdated BS bans for several years of prospective suspensions. I've heard an awful lot of people say they got off light.

Slams head against desk. idk, perhaps because the itt and the contenders pre-conceived abilities before and the results after shaped the strategy and the dynamics of the entire effin race???

So you’re saying that the non-TT portion of the race, taken alone, is completely meaningless? That it provides zero insight into the climbing results of the riders? That if there had been no ITT, Contador still would have won by two minutes? That he would have climbed a lot better if he hadn’t had that cushion?

I regard that as a hypothesis, certainly worthy of discussion, but not as a slam-head-against-desk obvious conclusion.

I love the modern world of HD TV! You don't have to take some journalist word for it. You can find the truth all on your own!

I love the modern world of science! We don’t have to take the word of some journalist thousands of years ago. We can find the truth all on our own.

 

[IamIronMan]

I don't think Contador will go into the Tour as *the* favorite anymore. With his god awful team and this race which proved to take quite a toll on him, I think he will be the underdog now. That could be a good thing, as I'm sure it will be a battle of the super teams Astana and Sky, with Movistar right on their heels. Contador will have to just surf the wheels of other teams' trains, and be very precise with how and when he attacks. But there is ZERO chance he comes in and controls the race, individually, or with his team.

 

[Jancouver]

Re:

I don't think Contador will go into the Tour as *the* favorite anymore. With his god awful team and this race which proved to take quite a toll on him, I think he will be the underdog now. That could be a good thing, as I'm sure it will be a battle of the super teams Astana and Sky, with Movistar right on their heels. Contador will have to just surf the wheels of other teams' trains, and be very precise with how and when he attacks. But there is ZERO chance he comes in and controls the race, individually, or with his team.

I think you forgot that he will have the other ST climbing star by his side. Hey, he won California so he got to be one of the best climbers around. Sagan will be pulling the pack on on those Alpine climbs while doing a wheelie

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

(Apologies for discussing doping issues in this forum. I won't respond to this again).

Its about time the UCI gave everyone back their wins. Its a shambles of a farce of a pile of wasted Haribo's
We know who won. To try and deny Bertie or Armstrong is just F%%%ing stupid given what we know.

Eh, he won the 2011 Giro (note the past tense), he's just no longer listed as the official winner.

"Official" bodies might be able to rewrite official records but they can't change real history...what actually happened. People who recognize all AC's wins know it's not official. They just understand what actually happened.

If Rasmussen had finished, of course he would have been the winner regardless of what officials found out later.

Alright people, we don't count paper victories

We count the real ones

9

I wonder if you posters would maintain the same line if after finishing first in a GT, a rider was found to have a motor in his bike. Still the real winner?

Anyway, backdated bans are big dull ***. Contador was allowed to race and he won. So he's the winner. Any statistic which says different is a stupid joke.

Do you think Contador would have preferred to have been banned two years prospectively? He got to serve his suspension with no time off except for a few months in 2012,so he didn't lose any further time getting back into shape. He entered the Giro fully aware that if he lost his case his results would be void. When you've tested positive, you're lucky to be racing at all. Racing knowing that if you really did dope and it's ruled that way you'll lose those results is still a better deal than not being able to race at all.

Ask all the riders who testified against LA for USADA if they would have preferred to trade their 6 month suspensions and backdated BS bans for several years of prospective suspensions. I've heard an awful lot of people say they got off light.

Slams head against desk. idk, perhaps because the itt and the contenders pre-conceived abilities before and the results after shaped the strategy and the dynamics of the entire effin race???

So you’re saying that the non-TT portion of the race, taken alone, is completely meaningless? That it provides zero insight into the climbing results of the riders? That if there had been no ITT, Contador still would have won by two minutes? That he would have climbed a lot better if he hadn’t had that cushion?

I regard that as a hypothesis, certainly worthy of discussion, but not as a slam-head-against-desk obvious conclusion.

I love the modern world of HD TV! You don't have to take some journalist word for it. You can find the truth all on your own!

I love the modern world of science! We don’t have to take the word of some journalist thousands of years ago. We can find the truth all on our own.

That analogy doesn't work entirely. AC wasn't caught doing clinic stuff in 2011 Giro.

I agree 100%!

 

[contador977]

Re:

I don't think Contador will go into the Tour as *the* favorite anymore. With his god awful team and this race which proved to take quite a toll on him, I think he will be the underdog now. That could be a good thing, as I'm sure it will be a battle of the super teams Astana and Sky, with Movistar right on their heels. Contador will have to just surf the wheels of other teams' trains, and be very precise with how and when he attacks. But there is ZERO chance he comes in and controls the race, individually, or with his team.

Majka was very good in the Tour last year, he should be Contador's main domestique in the mountains. I imagine he should be there if there are 5-8 guys in a small group. Today kind of reminded me of when Froome attacked Contador earlier this year at Andulcia and when Quintana attacked him at Tirreno. Not sure what that means but if this happens once at the Tour, its probably over.

Question: Was Contador stronger at the 2015 Giro or 2014 Vuelta? My vote is on 2014 Vuelta.

 

[Squirbos_19]

I really hope his trainers and himself have got his form right, I could be wrong but has he ever been bad in a season then come good after a break. If I recall every year he's good, he's been good all year. Last year he was good from Algarve to Catalunya, very good in the Dauphine and it was hard to tell for the Tour but he did drop everyone on a hilltop finish, finally he was strong in the vuelta after a broken leg.

I honestly can't see him improving his form for the Tour, I'll gladly be proven wrong but. I think he'll be at the same level as he was in the Giro. His form this giro has been pretty good but not great, 2 great performances on Mortirolo and Olagno, but apart from that he wasn't at his best.

 

[lenric]

I believe that he will be in a good shape. Resting for 5/6 weeks with a couple of altitude trainings will be enough.
But I think that he will probably drop like a stone in the last week if any GC contender starts le Tour at top shape, otherwise good chance to podium.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Anyone know what he's referring to in that pic? His 3 Vuelta victories? Would be somewhat disrespectful to the tifosi.

Your constant trolling is getting you into the red zone Sam. Give it a break now until July eh.

Err it was clearly a joke. If you read Serious Sam's posting history you would know that he is just about the last guy who would get on Contador's case for saying 3 giros.

Some of the Contador fans need to lighten up. The way a few I won't name pretty much abuse any poster who comes in here to say something that they don't immediately recognize as praiseful of Contador, is far worse.

But that's the point Hitchy. SeriousSam might be joking, but for many who don't get his very obscure humor, it looks like a trolling post. Especially because just about every single one of his posts is written that way (saying controversial things in a serious way but with just a hint of humor/sarcasm) I no longer know what to think of SeriousSam and I think it's the same for many others.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

If it makes you feel better to say that Landa (in particular) is a better climber, then go ahead. I would be foolish to argue the point. What do I care? Contador won the race. He has won 8 others (on the road), don't you think there is something correlative about him in particular other than his climbing that accounts for that? Or is it always just circumstance?

Seeing how Landa also did a lot of domestique duties and was kept on a rather tight leash, it's indeed quite logical to state that he was the best climber in this race (although I have a hard time believing he did it clean). You may not care about this, but several others here and elsewhere seemed to take offense to that, going as far as accusing people of trolling - trolling, just because someone doesn't agree with their position. I'm finding that all quite obnoxious and arrogant, and it spoils any serious discussion. If this was contained to this thread, that'd be OK, but it's also in the race threads and people are quite aggressive.

To be clear, I don't have any real race favourites, and I actually dislike Astana because I find them dodgy and I don't think people like Vinokourov should be involved in cycling. I look at races to enjoy the racing, and I don't particularly care who wins as long as he displays some kind of panache and I can more or less trust the result. So I don't really understand why people can be so 'into' one rider in particular - but I'm OK with it. What I'm not OK with is attacking other people for having a different view, or constantly shifting explanations post-date just so the story continuous to confirm the riders superiority. For example, the view 2 days ago (after the Cervinia stage) that Contador was such a boss for destroying Landa mentally, and that he could've attacked whenever he wanted. It's annoying to read such things in different forms every day also in the race thread AND at the same time see people being called trolls for stating another opinion (like Taxus, when he said yesterday that Contador in the current form would not be up to Froome and Quintana, and possibly Nibali and Pinot). "Don't feed the trolls" etc. Yeah.

 

[LaFlorecita]

And all the boys will have pink bar tape
Will Berto go fully pink though is the question

 

[jens_attacks]

Grande alberto!

So 9 and after le tour, 10 in the bag i wish
I really hope he stays until 2017 to beat merckx and bebest grand tour rider of all times

Vamos!

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

(Apologies for discussing doping issues in this forum. I won't respond to this again).

Its about time the UCI gave everyone back their wins. Its a shambles of a farce of a pile of wasted Haribo's
We know who won. To try and deny Bertie or Armstrong is just F%%%ing stupid given what we know.

Eh, he won the 2011 Giro (note the past tense), he's just no longer listed as the official winner.

"Official" bodies might be able to rewrite official records but they can't change real history...what actually happened. People who recognize all AC's wins know it's not official. They just understand what actually happened.

If Rasmussen had finished, of course he would have been the winner regardless of what officials found out later.

Alright people, we don't count paper victories

We count the real ones

9

I wonder if you posters would maintain the same line if after finishing first in a GT, a rider was found to have a motor in his bike. Still the real winner?

Anyway, backdated bans are big dull ***. Contador was allowed to race and he won. So he's the winner. Any statistic which says different is a stupid joke.

Do you think Contador would have preferred to have been banned two years prospectively? He got to serve his suspension with no time off except for a few months in 2012,so he didn't lose any further time getting back into shape. He entered the Giro fully aware that if he lost his case his results would be void. When you've tested positive, you're lucky to be racing at all. Racing knowing that if you really did dope and it's ruled that way you'll lose those results is still a better deal than not being able to race at all.

Ask all the riders who testified against LA for USADA if they would have preferred to trade their 6 month suspensions and backdated BS bans for several years of prospective suspensions. I've heard an awful lot of people say they got off light.

Slams head against desk. idk, perhaps because the itt and the contenders pre-conceived abilities before and the results after shaped the strategy and the dynamics of the entire effin race???

So you’re saying that the non-TT portion of the race, taken alone, is completely meaningless? That it provides zero insight into the climbing results of the riders? That if there had been no ITT, Contador still would have won by two minutes? That he would have climbed a lot better if he hadn’t had that cushion?

I regard that as a hypothesis, certainly worthy of discussion, but not as a slam-head-against-desk obvious conclusion.

I love the modern world of HD TV! You don't have to take some journalist word for it. You can find the truth all on your own!

I love the modern world of science! We don’t have to take the word of some journalist thousands of years ago. We can find the truth all on our own.

The difference between the motor and the other thing is that I would assume no one else is doing the motor.

The hesitation I personally have in acknowledging the ucis list, at least in discussions like this, stems from the knowledge that everyone on the list was doing the same thing, so it complicates things to pretend for the sake of pretending that one guy was behaving differently for two out of nine events, when we know that absolutely isn't the case.

If I thought contador had been alone then I absolutely would not give him 9 and probably would be arguing that he should have 0.