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Look at his face, caught red-handedFlamin said:So this is the bike Contador uses before changing bikes before the final climb, huh?
your theory of skybots and normal fans (you obviously associate yourself with) is utterly disgusting and disgraceful. ac is the great rider, probably one of the best ever, even just the greatest one by some parameters but he would be ashamed for his fanboys like you. support ac is very toxic on here. it just cannot go separately from massive disrespect towards the guys he opposes to.No_Balls said:Thats a pretty good summary Ray. They cry that they cant insult AC in a thread with his name because they then have to face some pretty heated counterarguments from "a mafia". After calling them out on their behavior they act offended and plays the morality card ( "jagartrotts" response is a prime example of this).
Oh well, this is my last response in this debate. This is a day to celebrate and nothing else
IamIronMan said:I don't think Contador will go into the Tour as *the* favorite anymore. With his god awful team and this race which proved to take quite a toll on him, I think he will be the underdog now. That could be a good thing, as I'm sure it will be a battle of the super teams Astana and Sky, with Movistar right on their heels. Contador will have to just surf the wheels of other teams' trains, and be very precise with how and when he attacks. But there is ZERO chance he comes in and controls the race, individually, or with his team.
No_Balls said:Jagartrott said:Seeing how Landa also did a lot of domestique duties and was kept on a rather tight leash, it's indeed quite logical to state that he was the best climber in this race (although I have a hard time believing he did it clean). You may not care about this, but several others here and elsewhere seemed to take offense to that, going as far as accusing people of trolling - trolling, just because someone doesn't agree with their position. I'm finding that all quite obnoxious and arrogant, and it spoils any serious discussion. If this was contained to this thread, that'd be OK, but it's also in the race threads and people are quite aggressive.ggusta said:If it makes you feel better to say that Landa (in particular) is a better climber, then go ahead. I would be foolish to argue the point. What do I care? Contador won the race. He has won 8 others (on the road), don't you think there is something correlative about him in particular other than his climbing that accounts for that? Or is it always just circumstance?
To be clear, I don't have any real race favourites, and I actually dislike Astana because I find them dodgy and I don't think people like Vinokourov should be involved in cycling. I look at races to enjoy the racing, and I don't particularly care who wins as long as he displays some kind of panache and I can more or less trust the result. So I don't really understand why people can be so 'into' one rider in particular - but I'm OK with it. What I'm not OK with is attacking other people for having a different view, or constantly shifting explanations post-date just so the story continuous to confirm the riders superiority. For example, the view 2 days ago (after the Cervinia stage) that Contador was such a boss for destroying Landa mentally, and that he could've attacked whenever he wanted. It's annoying to read such things in different forms every day also in the race thread AND at the same time see people being called trolls for stating another opinion (like Taxus, when he said yesterday that Contador in the current form would not be up to Froome and Quintana, and possibly Nibali and Pinot). "Don't feed the trolls" etc. Yeah.
I"ll answer too since it concerns me also.
Here's the deal:
1. The reason (some) AC-fans got furious by this was of course the early established narrative that Landa was in the race the better climber, and that climbing was all-important, before we actually knew this with certainty. Of course, given that they were all skybots it was necessary to quickly adopt Landa and conviently "forget" the embarrasing time trial from both Landa and Porte, and in systematic order of reducing the importance in Albertos victory, establish this point about climbing. Thats why we've seen the likes of Sam shifting stances from both pointing out the overriding importance of winning the Tour to the points about climbing rubbed in our face with clinical precision after each stage. When AC attacked in Cervinia the adopt attitude was faking that he'd cared and was "worried" it could jeopardise the Tour, at Mortirolo it was necessary to slam in AC-fans faces that Landa as the better climber could have done more, with the sole purpose of winding up fans. Now, the ring-leader tells its "a joke" and cries about "AC-fans". Of course, it gets heated sometimes, we are fans after all. What is definitively pathetic is houlier than thou-figures or self proclaimed voices of reason who takes a pleasure in winding up fans and then cries about the result.
2. As i was very active with that whole "destroy-Landa-mentally" thing. Whats strange with that? Its not like stating to the press saying "Alberto creates chaos in Astana" and "starts a war between me and Fabio" because of his shifted focus from Fabio to Mikel, directed who gets on the second step or who dont, is a normal thing to say to the press. Besides, we wouldnt even have this discussion if it was not for yesterday. Of course this statement could be wrong but again instead of confront me/us with that people take offense and goes crybabies "ohh, look how disrespectful THEY are". I see a lot of sneaky comments from the ton of sockpuppets which i dont care about but i suppose they are not a problem.
ray j willings said:Bertie has done what he has needed to. He is one of the greatest riders of all time. How good as he been going in this Giro ? IMO he has not been at his best but lets see how he goes at the tour. I am hoping he will be full gas and wins.
Trying to claim Landa is a better climber when Bertie has had his fair share of mishaps and also has the tour in mind is really a desperate attempt IMO of Bertie bashing. This is not a Wiggo tour win FFS.
Thinking again about the TT, Bertie smashed it. When he was dominant he used to be in such TT form so maybe Bertie is a lot better than we "me included" have given him credit for and the tour could be a real possibility.
You're right. Wiggins was the strongest climber and time trialist at the 2012 Tour compared to his GC rivals from other teams. Though Contador was the strongest time trialist, Landa was the superior climber.ray j willings said:Trying to claim Landa is a better climber when Bertie has had his fair share of mishaps and also has the tour in mind is really a desperate attempt IMO of Bertie bashing. This is not a Wiggo tour win FFS.
Bronstein said:You're right. Wiggins was the strongest climber and time trialist at the 2012 Tour compared to his GC rivals from other teams. Though Contador was the strongest time trialist, Landa was the superior climber.ray j willings said:Trying to claim Landa is a better climber when Bertie has had his fair share of mishaps and also has the tour in mind is really a desperate attempt IMO of Bertie bashing. This is not a Wiggo tour win FFS.
damian13ster said:*7. Please stop pretending like doping doesn't exist and shouldn't be punished.
Ehh, it does matter because being outclimbed by a rider who is 3rd rider in his own team doesn't bode well for a Tour. If Landa outclimbs Contador so badly just wait until he faces Nibali and Astana's first team (they will be much stronger, especially if Aru rides the Tour as well).
We will see, but it does look like really sub-par Contador this season (well, pretty much since his ban maybe except the first half of 2014)
Red Rick said:damian13ster said:*7. Please stop pretending like doping doesn't exist and shouldn't be punished.
Ehh, it does matter because being outclimbed by a rider who is 3rd rider in his own team doesn't bode well for a Tour. If Landa outclimbs Contador so badly just wait until he faces Nibali and Astana's first team (they will be much stronger, especially if Aru rides the Tour as well).
We will see, but it does look like really sub-par Contador this season (well, pretty much since his ban maybe except the first half of 2014)
How many did he win on the road?
LaFlorecita said:NINE GTs won on the road. BRAVO
Wiggins dropped Nibali on the Peyresourde stage.Red Rick said:Bronstein said:You're right. Wiggins was the strongest climber and time trialist at the 2012 Tour compared to his GC rivals from other teams. Though Contador was the strongest time trialist, Landa was the superior climber.ray j willings said:Trying to claim Landa is a better climber when Bertie has had his fair share of mishaps and also has the tour in mind is really a desperate attempt IMO of Bertie bashing. This is not a Wiggo tour win FFS.
And Wiggins was climbing better than Nibali because?
Yeah, just absurd. Things are turning more and more into an echo chamber.hrotha said:It's absolutely wack that you can't even mention Contador's official palmares without all sorts of fans jumping on your jugular. Feel free to keep whatever reckoning you fancy, but don't bring it up every time someone doesn't share your particular, unofficial views.
No one is saying Contador didn't really win the Giro because he wasn't the best climber. As he won pretty much all his previous Grand Tours with superior climbing, as opposed to time trialling (except 2007, which he won thanks to the best climber being removed from the race), the fact that he wasn't the best climber this time around but won with a strong TT is notable and worthy of discussion.Moose McKnuckles said:Why does it matter that "Landa was the better climber"?
It's like saying that the losing team had a better shooting percentage in a basketball game. So what?
SeriousSam said:Yeah, just absurd. Things are turning more and more into an echo chamber.hrotha said:It's absolutely wack that you can't even mention Contador's official palmares without all sorts of fans jumping on your jugular. Feel free to keep whatever reckoning you fancy, but don't bring it up every time someone doesn't share your particular, unofficial views.
hrotha said:It's absolutely wack that you can't even mention Contador's official palmares without all sorts of fans jumping on your jugular. Feel free to keep whatever reckoning you fancy, but don't bring it up every time someone doesn't share your particular, unofficial views.
damian13ster said:*7. Please stop pretending like doping doesn't exist and shouldn't be punished.
Ehh, it does matter because being outclimbed by a rider who is 3rd rider in his own team doesn't bode well for a Tour. If Landa outclimbs Contador so badly just wait until he faces Nibali and Astana's first team (they will be much stronger, especially if Aru rides the Tour as well).
We will see, but it does look like really sub-par Contador this season (well, pretty much since his ban maybe except the first half of 2014)