Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[BlurryVII]

Nice footage I never saw before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecW09eA8ASw

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Cross winds, Mur de Huy, cobbles, descending etc.
And beating the strongest climber at the Tour de France, as he has been in 2012, 2013, probably would have been in 2014, and in 2015.

Though circumstances explain Contador's every failure at the Tour since 2010, the same does of course not apply to Froome, so the main conclusion to be draw from the Tour is apparently that Froome always fades hard in the third week.

And this year, he wasn't the best climber either, Quintana took more time in the moutains than him. Following the
same criteria as those who say Landa was the best climber at the Giro, here it was Quintana .

1) Landa took way more time in the mountains on Contador than Quintana did on Froome. IIRC Quintana took what -30 seconds-1 minute? Landa took something lik 2.20.

2) Landa beat Contador in stage wins 2-0 (should have been 3-0 but Astana). Quintana beat froome, oh wait he didn't beat froome he actually lost. 0-1.

3) Landa was 2nd in KOM (should have been 1st but Astana) vs Contador 10th. Froome won KOM vs Quintana 2nd/3rd.

In 2012, there was the Vuelta with Rodriguez and Contador so he was not really the best climber, he didn't show anything as well in the Tour, saying he was the best in the entire season because he just looked easy in front of wiggins shows how biased you are.

He absolutely smashed Nibali as well. And Valverde. While pulling for Wiggins and also excelling in tts. Extremely strong time on Peyresoudes too.

And probably in 2014 ? Are you kidding? Vuelta wasn't enough apparently, You think he would've beaten AC at the Tour? Lol.

No Vuelta wasn't enough.

Or do you think Chris Horner would have beaten Nibali at the Tour? Or could Cobo beat Froome? Or Mosquera beat Nibali etc.

Vuelta isn't the Tour. the Tour is the Tour. That is where the best gt rider and best climber is decided.

I don't know if Froome would have beaten Contador at the Tour. It was Contador's best chance, but looking at the reality of cycling over the last 5 years Froome has been easily the best so I have to lean to Froome on there.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

The evidence that Froome was severely underestimated, especially by Contador fans, is all over this forum. It was a sight to behold how so many feverishly insisted Froome can't do something, only for Froome to do that very thing better than any of the so called Big 4 the day after. Cross winds, Mur de Huy, cobbles, descending etc. And beating the strongest climber at the Tour de France, as he has been in 2012, 2013, probably would have been in 2014, and in 2015.

Though circumstances explain Contador's every failure at the Tour since 2010, the same does of course not apply to Froome, so the main conclusion to be draw from the Tour is apparently that Froome always fades hard in the third week.

Excellent post, although I would argue on a small point: the cobbles. After last year, it wasn't unreasonable to predict that Froome would struggle this year. But overall, I agree with your post, and I leave this Giro-TdF strectch with the feeling that Alberto Contador may be in the twilight of his career. Even at the Giro, he didn't look that great IMO.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

1) Landa took way more time in the mountains on Contador than Quintana did on Froome. IIRC Quintana took what -30 seconds-1 minute? Landa took something lik 2.20.

2) Landa beat Contador in stage wins 2-0 (should have been 3-0 but Astana). Quintana beat froome, oh wait he didn't beat froome he actually lost. 0-1.

3) Landa was 2nd in KOM (should have been 1st but Astana) vs Contador 10th. Froome won KOM vs Quintana 2nd/3rd.

Those are irrelevant arguments.
Sorry but being ahead in KOM, or in stage wins has nothing to do with being the best climber. It's just about the time taken, where Quintana has the advantage.
He didn't win Alpe d'huez or Toussuire because of breakaway circumstances which Froome didn't have on PSM. Therefore, he couldn't take maximum points either.

He absolutely smashed Nibali as well. And Valverde. While pulling for Wiggins and also excelling in tts. Extremely strong time on Peyresoudes too.

You haven't proved anything here. Contador is much better than Nibali.

And Froome still showed nothing, he was just pulling and looking easy. Contador and rodriguez in the Vuelta were much, much better uphill than Wiggins in that Tour . In numbers as well.
Froome got annihilated. There's absolutely no way Froome was the best climber in 2012, it's wishful thinking.

No Vuelta wasn't enough.

Or do you think Chris Horner would have beaten Nibali at the Tour? Or could Cobo beat Froome? Or Mosquera beat Nibali etc.

Vuelta isn't the Tour. the Tour is the Tour. That is where the best gt rider and best climber is decided.

Unfortunately, the Armstrong era is over. The best GT rider and climber is no more the Tour winner.

Contador from the Giro 11' was much better climber than Evans, Contador / Rodriguez Vuelta 12' miles better than Wiggins, Contador was the best climber of 2014 and not Nibali, the Tour winner.

To take your example, I think Horner Vuelta 13' definitely could've possibly been a better climber than Nibali Tour 14'.

At the end of the day, Nibali gave his best and lost that Vuelta to Horner by being worse, same for Froome in 2011 - 2012 and 2014.

The great Froome who won the Tour twice now, hasn't won the Vuelta in 3 participations. Sorry, but being in yellow in Paris doesn't mean being the best anymore.

 

[warmfuzzies]

Re: Re:

Cross winds, Mur de Huy, cobbles, descending etc.
And beating the strongest climber at the Tour de France, as he has been in 2012, 2013, probably would have been in 2014, and in 2015.

Though circumstances explain Contador's every failure at the Tour since 2010, the same does of course not apply to Froome, so the main conclusion to be draw from the Tour is apparently that Froome always fades hard in the third week.

I personally never thought he wouldn't do well on those terrains.

In 2012, there was the Vuelta with Rodriguez and Contador so he was not really the best climber, he didn't show anything as well in the Tour, saying he was the best in the entire season because he just looked easy in front of wiggins shows how biased you are.
And probably in 2014 ? Are you kidding? Vuelta wasn't enough apparently, You think he would've beaten AC at the Tour? Lol.

And this year, he wasn't the best climber either, Quintana took more time in the moutains than him. Following the
same criteria as those who say Landa was the best climber at the Giro, here it was Quintana .

I thought the best TdF climber won the KoM, a point reinforced if the KoM winner also wins the Tour. Didnt Froome win both the MJ and KoM this year? If yes, how can you say he wasn't the best climber?!?

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Cross winds, Mur de Huy, cobbles, descending etc.
And beating the strongest climber at the Tour de France, as he has been in 2012, 2013, probably would have been in 2014, and in 2015.

Though circumstances explain Contador's every failure at the Tour since 2010, the same does of course not apply to Froome, so the main conclusion to be draw from the Tour is apparently that Froome always fades hard in the third week.

I personally never thought he wouldn't do well on those terrains.

In 2012, there was the Vuelta with Rodriguez and Contador so he was not really the best climber, he didn't show anything as well in the Tour, saying he was the best in the entire season because he just looked easy in front of wiggins shows how biased you are.
And probably in 2014 ? Are you kidding? Vuelta wasn't enough apparently, You think he would've beaten AC at the Tour? Lol.

And this year, he wasn't the best climber either, Quintana took more time in the moutains than him. Following the
same criteria as those who say Landa was the best climber at the Giro, here it was Quintana .

I thought the best TdF climber won the KoM, a point reinforced if the KoM winner also wins the Tour. Didnt Froome win both the MJ and KoM this year? If yes, how can you say he wasn't the best climber?!?

No the KOM jersey doesn't have to be won by the best climber. If you look back at other years it hasn't always been the best climber that won (Look at last year.) This year, Quintana gained more time on Froome in the mountains than Froome did on him so Quintana did the best in the mountains this year, yet he didn't win the KOM.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

I thought the best TdF climber won the KoM, a point reinforced if the KoM winner also wins the Tour. Didnt Froome win both the MJ and KoM this year? If yes, how can you say he wasn't the best climber?!?

As I said, because of the breakaway on Toussuire and Alpe d'huez, Quintana couldn't take maximum points on two MTFs.

While Froome could do it on PSM and was taking a few points here and there towards the end (can't remember when but he was) because he wanted the jersey while Quintana didn't give a damn.

KOM simply doesn't mean anything as to who is the best climber, it isn't hard to understand.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

I love this trope. Because one only watches the greatest GT, one knows nothing about cycling.

Unfortunately the winner of the greatest GT aka the Tour, couldn't win the "lesser" Vuelta in 3 participations.

Wait... isn't he supposed to win it easily, if he can win the Tour?

 

[movingtarget]

Contador is past his best but can still GTs. Contador won the Giro because he is still a better rider than Aru and Landa but as even Contador admitted, Astana made it a hard race even though their tactics were often strange and they could have even made it more difficult for Contador by riding smarter not just drilling it on the front for many kms. Contador's team was weak in the mountains and it did not help that they were wasting energy chasing breaks they did not need to chase. These things did not help Contador in the Tour and usually Rogers and Contador are very smart tactically. I think they got it wrong in the Giro. He got his victory but the team made the race harder for themselves and wasted energy. Even some of the opposition could not understand Tinkoff's tactics and were frustrated by them chasing breaks that were not dangerous. I don't think anyone could have done what Contador did in the Giro and backed up and won the Tour. I think the double is too difficult in the modern era. Only bad luck with crashes and rivals dropping out of the race could make the double possible at all but it's unlikely. Porte and Froome said throughout the Tour that even on the days when the GC riders were not attacking, the stages were very hard. There are no easy days anymore. Faster racing, shorter stages, the stakes and money are much higher and the pressure is greater. Times have changed.

Contador started the Tour looking fatigued and never made it to top gear once in the mountains. It was only his class and determination that kept him high up the GC but if next year's Tour is his last it could be a classic. As all four riders hopefully will back up next year and will be desperate to win for different reasons. Quintana wants his breakthrough win, Nibali still needs to show that he can beat the best in the Tour, Froome will be defending and Contador will want to go out with a win. The stage has been set and with the addition of some of the younger riders and riders like TJVG it could be an even better race than this year.I picked Froome to win this year simply because I did not think that a Contador with the Giro in his legs could beat an in form Froome in the Tour.

 

[dacooley]

logics of some posters amazes me. taking bertie's form in a separate race, pais vasco 14 or the giro, applying it for the most important race the tour, and proclaiming he could've won it. cmon, guys, the sport and life don't know what 'shoulda coulda woulda' is. leading a discussion in a language of excuses is unacceptable. last year alberto won the vuelta fair and square. froome was the second. froome beat contador in this year's tour de france fair and square. end of story. a tip top form contador is probably stronger than 100% froome but where is the guarantee of him hitting this peak next year? no one can vouch for it as they'll both start new season from scratch.

 

[Singer01]

Re:

The evidence that Froome was severely underestimated, especially by Contador fans, is all over this forum. It was a sight to behold how so many feverishly insisted Froome can't do something, only for Froome to do that very thing better than any of the so called Big 4 the day after. Cross winds, Mur de Huy, cobbles, descending etc. And beating the strongest climber at the Tour de France, as he has been in 2012, 2013, probably would have been in 2014, and in 2015.

Though circumstances explain Contador's every failure at the Tour since 2010, the same does of course not apply to Froome, so the main conclusion to be draw from the Tour is apparently that Froome always fades hard in the third week.

Compared to Quintana, generally he is on the same level as the other competitors.

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

I love this trope. Because one only watches the greatest GT, one knows nothing about cycling.

Unfortunately the winner of the greatest GT aka the Tour, couldn't win the "lesser" Vuelta in 3 participations.

Wait... isn't he supposed to win it easily, if he can win the Tour?

once he was a support rider and would have won otherwise, once he was coming off a tour where he did a shed load of work, once he was coming off an injury.

one could just as easily say the 'supposed greatest grand tour racer of his generation' couldn't win the tour in 5 years, when everyone knows there was a good reason for it.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

What an extraordinary load of rubbish on the last few pages.

Nice footage I never saw before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecW09eA8ASw

Thanks for posting, I hadn't seen that one either.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

The evidence that Froome was severely underestimated, especially by Contador fans, is all over this forum. It was a sight to behold how so many feverishly insisted Froome can't do something, only for Froome to do that very thing better than any of the so called Big 4 the day after. Cross winds, Mur de Huy, cobbles, descending etc. And beating the strongest climber at the Tour de France, as he has been in 2012, 2013, probably would have been in 2014, and in 2015.

Though circumstances explain Contador's every failure at the Tour since 2010, the same does of course not apply to Froome, so the main conclusion to be draw from the Tour is apparently that Froome always fades hard in the third week.

Excellent post, although I would argue on a small point: the cobbles. After last year, it wasn't unreasonable to predict that Froome would struggle this year. But overall, I agree with your post, and I leave this Giro-TdF strectch with the feeling that Alberto Contador may be in the twilight of his career. Even at the Giro, he didn't look that great IMO.

eh? He didn't even make it to the cobbles, so how do you know his ability on the cobbles? He crashed out on the slippery tarmac as a result of being unable to handle his bike as a result of his injured left wrist from the day before

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Contador miscalculated astana in the giro, very simple hitch.

He thought he could win it at 90% which he did but it completely destroyed him.

Thats true but it changes nothing.He wouldnt have won Tour anyway.Nobody will do that nor Quintana,Froome, Nibali, Nobody.its just too hard with this competition, maybe if someone has monster luck with his opponents crashing out, but even in this case I doubt.

lol what? Froome 2013 could do the Giro TOur double with his finger in his ear. He was almost as fatigued going into the TDF as he would be with a Giro behind his belt. Ridiculous 6 month peak and still destroyed the Tour de France. How many minutes weaker would he have been if he had done the Giro instead of Oman-Tirreno-Romandie-Dauphine.
2, 3 maybe. 5,6, no way.

Ridiculous 6 months peak? Froome was more than average in Oman and Tirreno 13', he won the prati di tivo MTF by only a couple seconds and lost on Green Mountain to Purito, Contador was absolute crap, if he was in 14' form, he would've destroyed him. I repeat Froome was more than average in those early races.

He started peaking from Romandie. And how can you compare doing a streak of 1 week races supposedly at the top which wasn't even the case vs riding 2 GTs in a row? It's not even remotely the same.

First, Froome would've had to beat a rather stong Nibali at the Giro under extreme conditions, there was snow, and rain every moutain stage. With his low body fat, he wouldn't even be a threat.
And Froome's recovery is terrible, he can't even hold his peak in ONE GT, he always fades in the 3rd week or when he crashes once he completely disappears. But doing Giro - Tour? Lol.

Froome is least likely to be able to do a double.

What are you talking about? Froome was able to peak for 18 days this Tour. Quintana was able to peak for two days. If anything, this Tour shows that Froome's recovery is very good.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

Well i'll defer to you on expertise of the overrated zone, seeing as how you basically own it re Contador.

Fair enough? Doesn't change that you're overrating Froome as hell. Talking about a double when he can't even hold his peak in a single GT, is laughable.

In 2012, even after taking it easy at the Tour, he completely collapsed at the Vuelta. Much worse than Contador's double attempts.

I think you're overhyping the current trend, that's it he won his 2nd GT you think he can do the triple and best GT rider since Merckx. Calm down.

interesting thing is that before the tour said you were convinced contador would win the race. alberto finished 5th with a 8 minute margin but this changed nothing in your estimation. that's still pretty much like 'froome won the tour as contador was nowhere from his best'

 

[fungusbear]

Re: Re:

Unfortunately, the Armstrong era is over. The best GT rider and climber is no more the Tour winner.

Contador from the Giro 11' was much better climber than Evans, Contador / Rodriguez Vuelta 12' miles better than Wiggins, Contador was the best climber of 2014 and not Nibali, the Tour winner.

To take your example, I think Horner Vuelta 13' definitely could've possibly been a better climber than Nibali Tour 14'.

At the end of the day, Nibali gave his best and lost that Vuelta to Horner by being worse, same for Froome in 2011 - 2012 and 2014.

The great Froome who won the Tour twice now, hasn't won the Vuelta in 3 participations. Sorry, but being in yellow in Paris doesn't mean being the best anymore.[/quote]
Meh, I disagree with you here. Every professional cyclist says that the speed and racing of the tour is on another level to the vuelta- you cannot deny that pretty much every cyclist who lines up for the tour is in their best form. Horner 13' would not have been close to Nibali tour 14'.

I agree that the winner of the tour is not always the best climber- as you pointed out Contador in 11' at the giro > Evans 11' Tour. However, as a rule of thumb the best climber of the tour is usually the best climber in the world that year. I also 100% believe that 2012 Froome would have destroyed 2012 Contador/Rodriguez. Rodrigueez could not even beat Ryder at the Giro that year, and Contador was way out of shape and form (understandably). Whether Contador is a better climber than Froome will have to wait until the tour next year, where hopefully the matter will be put to bed.

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

Unfortunately, the Armstrong era is over.

The best GT rider and climber is no more the Tour winner.

Generally the best GT rider is not meant to be the best climber. The best GT rider is the most consistent in all environments. The fact that lately GT routes tend to make people believe that Best GT Rider == Best Climber doesn't make it true. It's just a relatively recent degeneration.

The great Froome who won the Tour twice now, hasn't won the Vuelta in 3 participations.

He must feel devastated.

 

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Re:

What an extraordinary load of rubbish on the last few pages.

Nice footage I never saw before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecW09eA8ASw

Thanks for posting, I hadn't seen that one either.

So funny to see one of the most beautiful (out-of-saddle) pedaling stles in the pro peletn vs. that of a bunch of tourists.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

once he was a support rider and would have won otherwise, once he was coming off a tour where he did a shed load of work, once he was coming off an injury.

one could just as easily say the 'supposed greatest grand tour racer of his generation' couldn't win the tour in 5 years, when everyone knows there was a good reason for it.

Good, that's where I wanted to get to. You're looking into circumstances, and now you understand why Contador hasn't won the Tour since 2010.

You can't just say it like that, like some people do to tarnish his image, otherwise I can simply say Froome got destroyed at Vuelta 3 / 3 and in many other races completely overlooking some aspects .

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

interesting thing is that before the tour said you were convinced contador would win the race. alberto finished 5th with a 8 minute margin but this changed nothing in your estimation. that's still pretty much like 'froome won the tour as contador was nowhere from his best'

I was convinced as a fan, but I still was realistic and couldn't know he didn't have any plan going into the Tour apart from just hope for the best.

We agree then. Froome won as AC was nowhere near his best. He rode the Giro, anything to say against that? No, then fine.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

The great Froome who won the Tour twice now, hasn't won the Vuelta in 3 participations.

He must feel devastated.

Useless remark, take a sentence out of context to make yourself interesting.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

1) Landa took way more time in the mountains on Contador than Quintana did on Froome. IIRC Quintana took what -30 seconds-1 minute? Landa took something lik 2.20.

2) Landa beat Contador in stage wins 2-0 (should have been 3-0 but Astana). Quintana beat froome, oh wait he didn't beat froome he actually lost. 0-1.

3) Landa was 2nd in KOM (should have been 1st but Astana) vs Contador 10th. Froome won KOM vs Quintana 2nd/3rd.

Those are irrelevant arguments.
Snip

It's just about the time taken, where Quintana has the advantage.

My main argument was precisely-time taken. Landa took significant time on contador. Quintana took negligible time.

Besides I think only someone really desperate to push an agenda will make a big deal out of a handful of seconds over 8 mountain stages considering froome rode every single one in yellow and was defending for 7 of them.

And Froome still showed nothing, he was just pulling and looking easy. Contador and rodriguez in the Vuelta were much, much better uphill than Wiggins in that Tour . In numbers as well.
Froome got annihilated. There's absolutely no way Froome was the best climber in 2012, it's wishful thinking.

No Vuelta wasn't enough.

Or do you think Chris Horner would have beaten Nibali at the Tour? Or could Cobo beat Froome? Or Mosquera beat Nibali etc.

Vuelta isn't the Tour. the Tour is the Tour. That is where the best gt rider and best climber is decided.

Unfortunately, the Armstrong era is over. The best GT rider and climber is no more the Tour winner.

Contador from the Giro 11' was much better climber than Evans, Contador / Rodriguez Vuelta 12' miles better than Wiggins, Contador was the best climber of 2014 and not Nibali, the Tour winner.

To take your example, I think Horner Vuelta 13' definitely could've possibly been a better climber than Nibali Tour 14'.

At the end of the day, Nibali gave his best and lost that Vuelta to Horner by being worse, same for Froome in 2011 - 2012 and 2014.

The great Froome who won the Tour twice now, hasn't won the Vuelta in 3 participations. Sorry, but being in yellow in Paris doesn't mean being the best anymore.

You are really clutching at straws. On one hand you mock froome for looking easy in the 2012 tour then on the other you attack him for not going fast?

You also arbitrarily decide who was the best rider each year and surprise surprise contador comes off as the best lol.

The vuelta being the new crowning gt takes the cake though. Seriously. It's the tour.

Contador and froome have faced eachother on equal terms once and froome won by 1st round k.o. "lack of motivation" really isn't a great excuse for losing by as much as contador did. And contador allegedly believed all along he was going to win.

Also worth noting that contador hasn't had a dominant gt like 2013 tdf since 2011 and that was the giro which is less important. And in recent years, the supposed best climber in the world- contador, hasn't had any dominating performances like froome psm or froome ax-3 or froome ventoux. He scrapes his wins by seconds while froome takes them by a minute.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

You also arbitrarily decide who was the best rider each year and surprise surprise contador comes off as the best lol.


Contador and froome have faced eachother on equal terms once and froome won by 1st round k.o. "lack of motivation" really isn't a great excuse for losing by as much as contador did. And contador allegedly believed all along he was going to win.

I don't arbitrarily decide, in 2012 Rodriguez was ultimately the best climber, not Froome. And Contador was close to Purito. But keep being biased, and put Froome as best when he was just pulling Wiggins for the whole Tour and ending 10 minutes off in the Vuelta.

Surely you must go really low, to take Contador 13' as example. You know very well that year isn't in any way indicative of his level, he is at the top since 2007 winning at least 1 GT every season, he was obviously gonna have one off season at some point.
At the same time, Froome only arrived, and was in his prime. Timing was just perfectly convenient for Froome to look as the better rider which he is not.

The round which was on equal terms was the Vuelta 14'. Same circumstances, both coming off an injury. But see what you wanna see and take Contador 13' and Contador coming off the Giro as your examples to show your bias.

Also worth noting that contador hasn't had a dominant gt like 2013 tdf

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[LaFlorecita]

FFS stop the bickering both of you. Blurry, check your twitter DMs.