Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

Sorry for diverting but I love this photo. Both bikes look so cool ,,,Andys with his Berner rear mech looks like Bertie has one to.
Slammed stems lean and mean ,,,,Awesome

Kinda makes one miss Andy, doesn't it?

Not at all LOL! Whine, whine, whine!

Yep, but he was a great cyclist with great talent and abilities, also with nice smooth style, I miss him.

 

[Angliru]

What it makes me think about are the "what if's"... If Andy were still racing and at the high level that he had reached before his injuries and retirement, it would be quite interesting in the mountains. He and Contador had established among the gc riders that one doesn't have to just give up after losing time. Epic attacks in the mountains stir up the gc, entertains the fans and scares the hell out of opposing ds's and opponents. They don't always work but they gain the rider making the attacks greater respect among the fans and their peers. It was rare to see a grand tour contender after losing a minute or more in a itt or ttt go on a serious offensive in the mountains to gain the time back. Most have been content to simply defend their current position in the gc with the token attack here or there on a penultimate climb with no real commitment to it's success or a the requisite attack in the closing km's of a mountainous stage, with the thinking being they will attempt to take the time back one stage at a time, knowing that it's quite unlikely.

 

[ray j willings]

Re:

What it makes me think about are the "what if's"... If Andy were still racing and at the high level that he had reached before his injuries and retirement, it would be quite interesting in the mountains. He and Contador had established among the gc riders that one doesn't have to just give up after losing time. Epic attacks in the mountains stir up the gc, entertains the fans and scares the hell out of opposing ds's and opponents. They don't always work but they gain the rider making the attacks greater respect among the fans and their peers. It was rare to see a grand tour contender after losing a minute or more in a itt or ttt go on a serious offensive in the mountains to gain the time back. Most have been content to simply defend their current position in the gc with the token attack here or there on a penultimate climb with no real commitment to it's success or a the requisite attack in the closing km's of a mountainous stage, with the thinking being they will attempt to take the time back one stage at a time, knowing that it's quite unlikely.

Quite agree...if Andy was in Quintana's position in the tour he would have walked it " not literally"

 

[contador977]

Re: Re:

I do like Contador - he is one of the last types of riders with Panache like Valverde.

However is form his quite erratic though IMHO. Last year he and Froome crash out of the Tour (Contador a few days later than Froome and with a broken leg). Its unclear whether he will start the Vuelta 2014 until days before and then beats Froome (who hasn't broken a leg) convincingly.

FFW to 2015 and after another convincing win in the Giro he fades to nothing in the Tour.

How can he win a grand tour in 2014 with no training for a month and a broken leg, then in 2015 win a Giro with two fully functioning legs and fail dramatically at the TDF having just dished out a beating to Quintana at the Route de Sud.

Some might say well its because he was tired after the Giro but his performance at Route de Sud would suggest he wasn't tired.

His form just seems quite erratic for somebody at his level.

Don't let appearances fool you. He climbed Bales over 2 minutes slower than Pinot in the last Tour.

The real question is how Quintana was able to improve so much with only 2 weeks to fine tune his form.

At Route de Sud he didnt look that good in my eyes. He couldnt drop Quintana on the ascent, Quintana could have left him for dead if he wanted too. Watch the stage 4 , when they are together on the climb, Quintana looks more comfortable. I felt this way Pre-Tour so im not judging this in hindsight.

I guess the highlight to Alberto's season was that ITT at the Giro or Mortirolo climb.

I guess Finestre wasnt a bluff, which i considered it too be. I hope next year is similar to 2014, but with father time also in the equation..im not sure what to expect.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

At Route de Sud he didnt look that good in my eyes. He couldnt drop Quintana on the ascent, Quintana could have left him for dead if he wanted too. Watch the stage 4 , when they are together on the climb, Quintana looks more comfortable. I felt this way Pre-Tour so im not judging this in hindsight.

I guess the highlight to Alberto's season was that ITT at the Giro or Mortirolo climb.

I guess Finestre wasnt a bluff, which i considered it too be. I hope next year is similar to 2014, but with father time also in the equation..im not sure what to expect.

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to get to 2014 form unless age starts to catch up with him. He will be very motivated and will have a similar build-up to 2014's.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

At Route de Sud he didnt look that good in my eyes. He couldnt drop Quintana on the ascent, Quintana could have left him for dead if he wanted too. Watch the stage 4 , when they are together on the climb, Quintana looks more comfortable. I felt this way Pre-Tour so im not judging this in hindsight.

I guess the highlight to Alberto's season was that ITT at the Giro or Mortirolo climb.

I guess Finestre wasnt a bluff, which i considered it too be. I hope next year is similar to 2014, but with father time also in the equation..im not sure what to expect.

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to get to 2014 form unless age starts to catch up with him. He will be very motivated and will have a similar build-up to 2014's.

I agree. I saw nothing from Contador this year to say that age has become an issue for him. He won a difficult Giro and his ride in the Tour was still very good even though he was on the defensive, he also had some bad luck. Nibali should be more concerned as he did not have the Giro in his legs. At the same time I think Contador retiring at the end of next season if it happens, is not a bad thing. He has a had a long successful career at the top. Not many reach those heights.

 

[Miburo]

I'm convinced the retire talk is there to make sure tinkov doesn't insist on having him longer on the team. He'll do 2-3 years more somewhere else, my guess was alonso's team but yea...lol

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to get to 2014 form unless age starts to catch up with him. He will be very motivated and will have a similar build-up to 2014's.

Sure, he could (unless aging has set in, which I believe it has). But will he? I'm not so sure. Why didn't he reach his peak in 2013? This year? Why did he never reach his 2009 level again?

 

[staubsauger]

Re: Re:

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to get to 2014 form unless age starts to catch up with him. He will be very motivated and will have a similar build-up to 2014's.

Sure, he could (unless aging has set in, which I believe it has). But will he? I'm not so sure. Why didn't he reach his peak in 2013? This year? Why did he never reach his 2009 level again?

Never again!?

In 2011 he was toying likas Basso and Lance with his contrahents at the Giro!

His shape was insane imho in 2011.

 

[Squirbos_19]

2013 was just a horrible year, it can happen to anyone and this year he clearly stuffed up because of the Giro-Tour. He was trying to build his form from Giro to Tour and that didn't happen, he was at about 85-90% at the Giro which is what he planned. He can still get to his best level in 2016

 

[SeriousSam]

His form in 2011 might have been better than in 2010 (hard to tell, different program) but dominating the best GC riders at the time at the Tour, breaking the VAM record and beating prime Cancellara in a flat time trial was no doubt his peak. Better than 2011.

But this just goes to show how there is some up in down in form. I think it's reasonable (except if age related concerns apply) to expect him to do better next year. Apparently his last year and 2015 was disappointing. It might motivate him to once again go through a period of months of sacrifices to get close to his best, like in 2014.

The point I was making is that just because a rider can physically reach a certain level, it doesn't mean he will reach it every year, or even every other year.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

2013 was just a horrible year, it can happen to anyone and this year he clearly stuffed up because of the Giro-Tour. He was trying to build his form from Giro to Tour and that didn't happen, he was at about 85-90% at the Giro which is what he planned. He can still get to his best level in 2016

One thing that indicates that Contador is diminished, compared to his 2011 form and earlier, is that he approached the double with much better preparation than back then, but ended up weaker in both the Giro and the Tour. In 2011, he was invulnerable in the Giro, this year he was out climbed, and very vulnerable towards the end. In the Tour in 2011, he was both unlucky and bonked, but still managed to climb with the best, even if not on every stage. This year never even close to the best climbers.

 

[Miburo]

Good job sam, you're making an exceptional point yet you fail to adress the main difference between 2011 and 2015. On purpose? or stupidity? Tell me

 

[ray j willings]

For me ,2014 Bertie looked fantastic. I think the fact he recovered from injury and won the Vuelta quite easy gives an idea of just how good his form was. Some posters keep mentioning that he lost Time to Nibs at the tour etc and was not looking good.
Fact is , on the cobbled stage he had a mech problem and could not get into any decent gears, That's where he lost his time. He would have decimated the field in that tour IMO , he was in his best form for years.
bring on 2016 ,,,,

 

[contador977]

Re:

For me ,2014 Bertie looked fantastic. I think the fact he recovered from injury and won the Vuelta quite easy gives an idea of just how good his form was. Some posters keep mentioning that he lost Time to Nibs at the tour etc and was not looking good.
Fact is , on the cobbled stage he had a mech problem and could not get into any decent gears, That's where he lost his time. He would have decimated the field in that tour IMO , he was in his best form for years.
bring on 2016 ,,,,

Contador's 2014 Tour form....we will never know what it was. I imagine he could have gotten that 2-30 to Nibali back. Froome crashing at the Dauphine in 2014 hurt his form, Alberto followed some strong attacks by Froome in the earlier stages and attacked him later after his crash and Froome couldnt respond...thus again giving the impression of dominance but with an asterisk surely.

But I dont think 2014 Contador was as good as other years previous. Sure he showed signs of great form in 2014, far better than 2013 but he has lost some of his explosion. This year he wasnt a consistent climber. Mortirolo was a good show but inconsistency in the mountains hurts him. Im not sure he can beat Froome at the 2016 Tour but I sure as heck want to see it happen.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

2013 was just a horrible year, it can happen to anyone and this year he clearly stuffed up because of the Giro-Tour. He was trying to build his form from Giro to Tour and that didn't happen, he was at about 85-90% at the Giro which is what he planned. He can still get to his best level in 2016

One thing that indicates that Contador is diminished, compared to his 2011 form and earlier, is that he approached the double with much better preparation than back then, but ended up weaker in both the Giro and the Tour. In 2011, he was invulnerable in the Giro, this year he was out climbed, and very vulnerable towards the end. In the Tour in 2011, he was both unlucky and bonked, but still managed to climb with the best, even if not on every stage. This year never even close to the best climbers.

He had minimal support in this year's Giro, had a crash that certainly compromised his performance for the rest of the Giro all of which could quite possibly have led to the fatigue in the 3rd week of the Giro and ultimately left him with nothing in the tank for the Tou, this also compounded by his crash in the Tour that likely added to the negative effects that he had to overcome. It likely was a venture that was taken too late in his career for it to draw fruit although it wasn't a complete failure. He has the Giro win in hand.

To say that his talents are severely diminished and using the 2 years (2011 & 2015) as your barometer is faulty. In 2014, as I have stated on this forum multiple times, Contador was able to do what no one else in the peloton has been able to do and that is match Froome in his manic accelerations in the mountains. Regardless of what is one's personal measurement of Froome's form in the 2014Vuelta, in the 3rd week when he should have been reaching his best form, Contador was with him pedal rev for pedal rev. Only Quintana has bettered that and it is Froome's and Sky's claim that he was suffering from an illness of some kind that hindered his performance at that point. Of course who know what is fact and what is fiction.

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to get to 2014 form unless age starts to catch up with him. He will be very motivated and will have a similar build-up to 2014's.

Sure, he could (unless aging has set in, which I believe it has). But will he? I'm not so sure. Why didn't he reach his peak in 2013? This year? Why did he never reach his 2009 level again?

2014 and 2011
2014 he dropped Quintana and 2011 dropped Rujano,2 most unbelievable things I witnessed those years

 

[ninjadriver]

Re: Re:

I don't see why he shouldn't be able to get to 2014 form unless age starts to catch up with him. He will be very motivated and will have a similar build-up to 2014's.

Sure, he could (unless aging has set in, which I believe it has). But will he? I'm not so sure. Why didn't he reach his peak in 2013? This year? Why did he never reach his 2009 level again?

Sam, Contador did reach his 2009 level and beyond in the 2011 Giro, his most dominant Grand Tour of all. He barely used his team on the climbs (Etna/Zoncolan/etc.), riding away from them and everyone else whenever he felt like it.

But as for the general theme of your question "Why did he never reach his 2009 level again?" Contador was suspended after the 2011 TDF, and returned a still great but significantly diminished rider with less explosion and stamina.

 

[ninjadriver]

Re: Re:

2013 was just a horrible year, it can happen to anyone and this year he clearly stuffed up because of the Giro-Tour. He was trying to build his form from Giro to Tour and that didn't happen, he was at about 85-90% at the Giro which is what he planned. He can still get to his best level in 2016

One thing that indicates that Contador is diminished, compared to his 2011 form and earlier, is that he approached the double with much better preparation than back then, but ended up weaker in both the Giro and the Tour. In 2011, he was invulnerable in the Giro, this year he was out climbed, and very vulnerable towards the end. In the Tour in 2011, he was both unlucky and bonked, but still managed to climb with the best, even if not on every stage. This year never even close to the best climbers.

Sam: Your post immediately above is dead on the money. Well articulated.

 

[ninjadriver]

Re: Re:

I do like Contador - he is one of the last types of riders with Panache like Valverde.

However is form his quite erratic though IMHO. Last year he and Froome crash out of the Tour (Contador a few days later than Froome and with a broken leg). Its unclear whether he will start the Vuelta 2014 until days before and then beats Froome (who hasn't broken a leg) convincingly.

FFW to 2015 and after another convincing win in the Giro he fades to nothing in the Tour.

How can he win a grand tour in 2014 with no training for a month and a broken leg, then in 2015 win a Giro with two fully functioning legs and fail dramatically at the TDF having just dished out a beating to Quintana at the Route de Sud.

Some might say well its because he was tired after the Giro but his performance at Route de Sud would suggest he wasn't tired.

His form just seems quite erratic for somebody at his level.

Don't let appearances fool you. He climbed Bales over 2 minutes slower than Pinot in the last Tour.

The real question is how Quintana was able to improve so much with only 2 weeks to fine tune his form.

At Route de Sud he didnt look that good in my eyes. He couldnt drop Quintana on the ascent, Quintana could have left him for dead if he wanted too. Watch the stage 4 , when they are together on the climb, Quintana looks more comfortable. I felt this way Pre-Tour so im not judging this in hindsight.

I guess the highlight to Alberto's season was that ITT at the Giro or Mortirolo climb.

I guess Finestre wasnt a bluff, which i considered it too be. I hope next year is similar to 2014, but with father time also in the equation..im not sure what to expect.

I don't think anything about Contador getting dropped I believe 4 times at the Giro (Landa twice and Aru twice) was a bluff. One more mountain stage, and he might have finished in 3rd. The fact that he held on, and rode such a majestic ride up the Mortirolo, and the entire race with no climbing team, all are testaments to his championship heart and guts.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

2013 was just a horrible year, it can happen to anyone and this year he clearly stuffed up because of the Giro-Tour. He was trying to build his form from Giro to Tour and that didn't happen, he was at about 85-90% at the Giro which is what he planned. He can still get to his best level in 2016

One thing that indicates that Contador is diminished, compared to his 2011 form and earlier, is that he approached the double with much better preparation than back then, but ended up weaker in both the Giro and the Tour. In 2011, he was invulnerable in the Giro, this year he was out climbed, and very vulnerable towards the end. In the Tour in 2011, he was both unlucky and bonked, but still managed to climb with the best, even if not on every stage. This year never even close to the best climbers.

Sam: Your post immediately above is dead on the money. Well articulated.

Thats exactly how I feel about Contador as well. 2011 Giro never forgotten, that was one helluva show he put on.

 

[rm7]

Now that there will be none of this Giro-Tour stuff next year, his doms should also be a lot stronger.

If Contador wasn't able to perform at a high level in both races, then how the hell should his doms.

I hope Contador-Kreuziger-Rodgers-Kiserlovski will follow almost the same spring season. Kreuziger will do the Ardenners too, and then rest up for the Tour I guess. Kreuziger was a crucial helper for Contador in the 2014 spring season, he was always there when the groups were small, so Contador could launch his final attack without using energy before that.

Majka to do the Giro, and then maybe the Tour like 2014.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

He had minimal support in this year's Giro, had a crash that certainly compromised his performance for the rest of the Giro all of which could quite possibly have led to the fatigue in the 3rd week of the Giro and ultimately left him with nothing in the tank for the Tou, this also compounded by his crash in the Tour that likely added to the negative effects that he had to overcome. It likely was a venture that was taken too late in his career for it to draw fruit although it wasn't a complete failure. He has the Giro win in hand.

I don't think you can attribute the difference between 2011 and 2015 to crashes and support.

He used minimal support in the Giro, even if it was available. He used up a huge amount of energy in that Giro. Also, he crashed in the Tour if I remember correctly. That didn't stop him from riding as he did at the Alpe stage.

Now I'm not ruling out that his crash at the Giro reduced his sustained power output, but do you really believe that had he not crashed and sustained a shoulder injury, he would have been much stronger at the Tour weeks later? I can buy that he would have been a little bit stronger, but more than that is a stretch.

Even if, contrary to what I said, crashes and lacking support account for much, what about the fact that his preparation surely must have been a lot better than it was in 2011. Contador has said that much himself. Did crashes and lacking support overcome even this advantage and result in a weaker Contador, or are there other factors at play?

One such factor could be the strength of competition. Perhaps Contador reached a similar, or even higher level in 2015 in both races than in 2011, it just happens to be that the guys he beat and lost to are much better. Maybe. Maybe Froome and Quintana, as well as Aru and Landa, are better than their 2011 counterparts. But it still doesn't explain why other riders at the Giro and the Tour come close to or even surpassed Contado on some stages.

To say that his talents are severely diminished and using the 2 years (2011 & 2015) as your barometer is faulty. In 2014, as I have stated on this forum multiple times, Contador was able to do what no one else in the peloton has been able to do and that is match Froome in his manic accelerations in the mountains. Regardless of what is one's personal measurement of Froome's form in the 2014Vuelta, in the 3rd week when he should have been reaching his best form, Contador was with him pedal rev for pedal rev. Only Quintana has bettered that and it is Froome's and Sky's claim that he was suffering from an illness of some kind that hindered his performance at that point. Of course who know what is fact and what is fiction.

First, I'm not saying "severely diminished". I'm saying that a comparison of his two double attempts indicates he is diminished. Second, I'm comparing 2011 and 2015 because I'm attempting to compare like with like. In the absence of his 2011 attempt, who can tell what a reasonable performance in the Giro and Tour is? We wouldn't know. We might be thinking that Contador is at his best ever given his 2015 performance.. if he hadn't done better in 2011, with worse preparation.

As for Contador matching Froome on climbs it's been discussed many times now and there's been no convergence in opinions. Let's hope both arrive at the Tour de France in blistering shape next year, with perfect preparations and dominant performances in the one week races. Then they're probably close to their best at the Tour, and then we'll finally see.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Re: Re:

Even if, contrary to what I said, crashes and lacking support account for much, what about the fact that his preparation surely must have been a lot better than it was in 2011. Contador has said that much himself. Did crashes and lacking support overcome even this advantage and result in a weaker Contador, or are there other factors at play?

Just because Contador said and thought his preparation was better this year than in 2011 doesn't mean that it was. He had one shot to prepare for 2011 and he did it a certain way and another shot to prepare for 2015 (with the benefit of 2011's experience) and he did it differently. There are, however, infinite preparations for a Giro-Tour double and a very small amount of data available in regard to what would work best. Not to mention the variability between riders in response to training. Some riders respond best to greater intensity and volume; some do best with a lot of race days in their legs; some need to be fresh; _______ to infinite. It might be that his preparation in 2015 was in fact better than in 2011, but there is no way to really know this. Additionally, he lost Riis, what, a month before the Giro? If he had had Riis the whole time, Riis himself has indicated the preparation would have been different. if he had been on Sky, it would have been different. In all scenarios, Contador likely would have said his preparation was much better than in 2011.

One such factor could be the strength of competition. Perhaps Contador reached a similar, or even higher level in 2015 in both races than in 2011, it just happens to be that the guys he beat and lost to are much better. Maybe. Maybe Froome and Quintana, as well as Aru and Landa, are better than their 2011 counterparts. But it still doesn't explain why other riders at the Giro and the Tour come close to or even surpassed Contado on some stages.

I agree that the first part is certainly a possibility. His numbers, however, were significantly lower this year than in years' past. And the second part of course indicates that there is more going on than a transcendent Froome/Quintana.

As for Contador matching Froome on climbs it's been discussed many times now and there's been no convergence in opinions. Let's hope both arrive at the Tour de France in blistering shape next year, with perfect preparations and dominant performances in the one week races. Then they're probably close to their best at the Tour, and then we'll finally see.

I agree that we have yet to see both go head to head in a targeted race with what both sides would largely agree is top form. However, given the similarities of their approaches to last year's Vuelta (crashing out after 5-7 days of the Tour, injury rehab, underlying top form from Tour prep not depleted by rigorous racing) and their goals in last year's Vuelta (ignore the rheotic (Contador saying he was just there for a stage win, Froome saying it was prep for 2015); both wanted to salvage the season with a GT victory) and the numbers they put out in last year's Vuelta, I don't see any way you can rationally argue that the true gap between Contador and Froome is what we have seen in 2013 and 2015 Tours. I too hope to see them in the 2016 Tour in top form. If Contador is aging, Froome shouldn't be too far behind.

 

[ninjadriver]

Re: Re:

VayaVayaVaya
I agree that we have yet to see both go head to head in a targeted race with what both sides would largely agree is top form. However, given the similarities of their approaches to last year's Vuelta (crashing out after 5-7 days of the Tour, injury rehab, underlying top form from Tour prep not depleted by rigorous racing) and their goals in last year's Vuelta (ignore the rheotic (Contador saying he was just there for a stage win, Froome saying it was prep for 2015); both wanted to salvage the season with a GT victory) and the numbers they put out in last year's Vuelta, I don't see any way you can rationally argue that the true gap between Contador and Froome is what we have seen in 2013 and 2015 Tours. I too hope to see them in the 2016 Tour in top form. If Contador is aging, Froome shouldn't be too far behind.

Ninjadriver
I like your analysis, Vaya, especially about the 2014 Vuelta, but caution that although Contador is only 2 years older than Froome, Contador has many many more miles on the odometer, a la Kobe Bryant, than does Froome.

Froome also has such a better supporting team, and that, together with Froome's relatively late start and lower miles could see him challenging for Grand Tours well into his mid or even upper 30s. Valverde, Rodriguez and Horner come to mind.