Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[Hugo Koblet]

Re:

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

 

[dacooley]

with the giro average field, froome would've looked like a wolf breaking into the chicken hoop there. very boring and almost zero chance of winning the tour after that, though. the biggest obstacle for the double is there's no rider standing all over the rest of the field in the modern cycling. yes, the double is still possible, but numerous favorable circumstances - perfect fit and prep, total absence of crashes, illnesses and ailments throughout the season, the strongest team, opponents not being in non-optimal shape which is presumably the most difficult one - should come together at one point in time.. in sum lady luck should be your exclusive partner to pull the double off in our era.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

But I don't agree. If all of Froome, Contador, Quintana and Nibali decided to target the double, I would definitely give Froome the highest chances of succeeding.

 

[Miburo]

Froome can easily win the giro, don't be delusional fleur.

If a guy like hesjedal can win it, then why the *** cant froome win it? It's still a race where being the strongest usually counts and who will win the race.

Look at the last 10 years

2015 - strongest (same point as in '08) won
2014 - strongest won
2013 - strongest won
2012 - hesjedal wasn't the strongest but wasn't weaker than purito
2011 - strongest won
2010 - strongest won
2009 - strongest won
2008 - Ah finally one where the strongest didn't win, at least in the mountains but contador won the race in the ITT. Nothing special about that, happens so often in a race.
2007 - strongest won
2006 - strongest won

Please explain how the giro is so different than any race that the strongest rider most of the times won't win it? Froome also has no obvious weaknesses, like Wiggins had in '13.

 

[Jakub]

Re: Re:

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

But I don't agree. If all of Froome, Contador, Quintana and Nibali decided to target the double, I would definitely give Froome the highest chances of succeeding.

Absolutely not. In 2012 Froome was tragic in Vuelta after Tour. in 2014 he was not the best in Vuelta, although he rode only a bit of Tour. Bertie was quite solid in Tour 2011 after Giro, the problem is he was very unlucky in Tour and also I don't believe his preparation was focused on double. In 2015 he was a bit worse because he didn't have that good year and he shouldn't have raced Route de Sud and one of the early one week races. and in 2014 he has won Vuelta after riding half of the Tour. In 2008 he won both Giro and Vuelta. Both Nibali and Quintana tried it and failed. Don't try to say that Quitana was only unlucky, he's already lost before he crashed, he had a terrible TT.
+ Froome would need a miraculous weather in Giro to win it and that never happens.

If someone from these 4 is obviously the best choice for the double it's Bertie.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

But I don't agree. If all of Froome, Contador, Quintana and Nibali decided to target the double, I would definitely give Froome the highest chances of succeeding.

Absolutely not. In 2012 Froome was tragic in Vuelta after Tour. in 2014 he was not the best in Vuelta, although he rode only a bit of Tour. Bertie was quite solid in Tour 2011 after Giro, the problem is he was very unlucky in Tour and also I don't believe his preparation was focused on double. In 2015 he was a bit worse because he didn't have that good year and he shouldn't have raced Route de Sud and one of the early one week races. and in 2014 he has won Vuelta after riding half of the Tour. In 2008 he won both Giro and Vuelta. Both Nibali and Quintana tried it and failed. Don't try to say that Quitana was only unlucky, he's already lost before he crashed, he had a terrible TT.
+ Froome would need a miraculous weather in Giro to win it and that never happens.

If someone from these 4 is obviously the best choice for the double it's Bertie.

Contador solid in the 2011 Tour? What race did you watch? He was way below his usual level. And in 2015 he was bad as well. Contador has shown that he can't do the double. No shame in that.

Froome is the best GT rider and is the rider capable of peaking over the longest period of time. If he set his mind to it, I would definitely rate him higher than Contador for a double attempt.

Also, could you point me to a few results where Froome has been affected by the bad weather? Honest question, because I don't really remember any.

 

[Miburo]

TA 2013, not that i think froome is so bad in it but his bike handling might be an issue then.

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

But I don't agree. If all of Froome, Contador, Quintana and Nibali decided to target the double, I would definitely give Froome the highest chances of succeeding.

Thats a lame logic if you ask me. You know how Froome recovery is, so I wonder how he would have better chance than these other 3?
Maybe its weird but Nibali might have the best shot if he was 2014 form again with light Giro field. I dont think that AC in this age has that capacity for double.As for Quintana , he would need extremely good parcours.



Anyway, I dont know what about are you fighting all these days here, its obvious that AC has good form so far, so just enjoy the master for one last year and dont complain

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

TA 2013, not that i think froome is so bad in it but his bike handling might be an issue then.

That was the one example I could come up with. But as far as I remember, he lost like 5 or 6 seconds to Contador there.

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

What?

Froome wouldn't even win the Giro IMO.

But I don't agree. If all of Froome, Contador, Quintana and Nibali decided to target the double, I would definitely give Froome the highest chances of succeeding.

Thats a lame logic if you ask me. You know how Froome recovery is, so I wonder how he would have better chance than these other 3?
Maybe its weird but Nibali might have the best shot if he was 2014 form again with light Giro field. I dont think that AC in this age has that capacity for double.As for Quintana , he would need extremely good parcours.



Anyway, I dont know what about are you fighting all these days here, its obvious that AC has good form so far, so just enjoy the master for one last year and dont complain

I'm not sure what you point to as "lame logic"? Could you elaborate?

Regarding the last part of your post, I 100% agree

 

[Jakub]

Re: Re:

Contador solid in the 2011 Tour? What race did you watch? He was way below his usual level. And in 2015 he was bad as well. Contador has shown that he can't do the double. No shame in that.

Froome is the best GT rider and is the rider capable of peaking over the longest period of time. If he set his mind to it, I would definitely rate him higher than Contador for a double attempt.

Also, could you point me to a few results where Froome has been affected by the bad weather? Honest question, because I don't really remember any.

This really doesn't have any sense
Of course he was below his usual level in TdF2011, he was attempting a non-planed Giro-Tour double, what would you expect? He lost time because of a crash and if I rememeber correctly he himself crashed then also. Then of course hhe made crazy attacks and tried to find his luck, which is adorable IMHO. His performace was good and I still believe he would be on the podium without the stage 1 stupid crash.
Why do you want me to point out Froome's results affected by the bad weather. Froome? The guy who is hiding his ass in South Africa because it's too cold in Europe? This Froome should win on Passo dello Stelvio? Mate, I climbed it once in August and it was -5 and snow there ;-) I rememeber Froome being 100+th in some spring races, once it was Tirreno I believe? But it's obvious he chooses races with good weather conditions. and nothing against it, I would do the same, but still it's very questionable how would he deal with weather in Giro - see Rafal Majka for example.

and once more again:
from the group Contador, Froome, Quintana and Nibali.

Who won two GTs in one year?
Contador

Who at least tried G-T double and was at least top 5 in Tour?
Contador

Who has won Giro so far?
Contador, Nibali, Quintana

Who won Vuelta 2014 after participating half Tour?
Contador

Who admit himself that dislikes bad weather?
Froome

Which GT has the more demanding weather conditions?
Giro

Who was not a all good in Vuelta after riding Tour as a domestique?
Froome

and yet you consider Froome the best for double, this is beyond me. I don't say that Bertie would have a better than very small chance to win the double, but that's because with the others riding only Tour it's almost impossible. Still I believe that he's the best choice. Froome hasn't showed anything so far which would make him a favourite for giro-tour double. LaFlo has a point with Froome not able to win Giro - so far he didn't even try to and the theory is against him.

 

[cellardoor]

Re:

Alberto made the mistake of coming into the Giro under form, thinking he would have the margin to win it anyway and then peak for the Tour.

All that happened, though, was that such a hard Giro taxed him too excessively and he was never able to recover for the Tour.

IMO the Giro -Tour doubble is still possible, extremely risky and difficult, but possible. But you have to treat the Giro as if it were the only objective and come in top shape, to not overly-burn the system to win it, to then rest between and start the Tour a notch off, but race back into top shape by the first MTF.

It's what the bigs who won both in the same year did before. People could thus be in for a surprise with Nibali, if he wins the Giro and then starts the Tour.

What I find odd is that Basso appeared to approach it the way you suggest, i.e. peaking for the Giro, and they presumably brought in Basso for his knowledge of attempting the double and then decided on a different approach.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Contador solid in the 2011 Tour? What race did you watch? He was way below his usual level. And in 2015 he was bad as well. Contador has shown that he can't do the double. No shame in that.

Froome is the best GT rider and is the rider capable of peaking over the longest period of time. If he set his mind to it, I would definitely rate him higher than Contador for a double attempt.

Also, could you point me to a few results where Froome has been affected by the bad weather? Honest question, because I don't really remember any.

This really doesn't have any sense
Of course he was below his usual level in TdF2011, he was attempting a non-planed Giro-Tour double, what would you expect? He lost time because of a crash and if I rememeber correctly he himself crashed then also. Then of course hhe made crazy attacks and tried to find his luck, which is adorable IMHO. His performace was good and I still believe he would be on the podium without the stage 1 stupid crash.
Why do you want me to point out Froome's results affected by the bad weather. Froome? The guy who is hiding his ass in South Africa because it's too cold in Europe? This Froome should win on Passo dello Stelvio? Mate, I climbed it once in August and it was -5 and snow there ;-) I rememeber Froome being 100+th in some spring races, once it was Tirreno I believe? But it's obvious he chooses races with good weather conditions. and nothing against it, I would do the same, but still it's very questionable how would he deal with weather in Giro - see Rafal Majka for example.

and once more again:
from the group Contador, Froome, Quintana and Nibali.

Who won two GTs in one year?
Contador

Who at least tried G-T double and was at least top 5 in Tour?
Contador

Who has won Giro so far?
Contador, Nibali, Quintana

Who won Vuelta 2014 after participating half Tour?
Contador

Who admit himself that dislikes bad weather?
Froome

Which GT has the more demanding weather conditions?
Giro

Who was not a all good in Vuelta after riding Tour as a domestique?
Froome

and yet you consider Froome the best for double, this is beyond me. I don't say that Bertie would have a better than very small chance to win the double, but that's because with the others riding only Tour it's almost impossible. Still I believe that he's the best choice. Froome hasn't showed anything so far which would make him a favourite for giro-tour double. LaFlo has a point with Froome not able to win Giro - so far he didn't even try to and the theory is against him.

I want you to point to Froome's bad results in bad weather because you were the one bringing them up. I can't remember any, so I expect you to do so when you state that he's bad in bad weather. You bring up a Tirreno result. Which exactly? I remember one stage. He lost a few seconds to Contador.

I'm not saying that Froome is likely to do the Giro-Tour double. In fact, I find it highly unlikely. He's just more likely than anyone else.

The question really comes down to this: Who would you back to win the Giro-Tour double?

a) The world's best GT rider who might not even have reached his peak level yet?
b) The world's second or third best GT rider who is declining and has two failed double attempts in the last five years against questional competition in the Giro?

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Contador solid in the 2011 Tour? What race did you watch? He was way below his usual level. And in 2015 he was bad as well. Contador has shown that he can't do the double. No shame in that.

Froome is the best GT rider and is the rider capable of peaking over the longest period of time. If he set his mind to it, I would definitely rate him higher than Contador for a double attempt.

Also, could you point me to a few results where Froome has been affected by the bad weather? Honest question, because I don't really remember any.

This really doesn't have any sense
Of course he was below his usual level in TdF2011, he was attempting a non-planed Giro-Tour double, what would you expect? He lost time because of a crash and if I rememeber correctly he himself crashed then also. Then of course hhe made crazy attacks and tried to find his luck, which is adorable IMHO. His performace was good and I still believe he would be on the podium without the stage 1 stupid crash.
Why do you want me to point out Froome's results affected by the bad weather. Froome? The guy who is hiding his ass in South Africa because it's too cold in Europe? This Froome should win on Passo dello Stelvio? Mate, I climbed it once in August and it was -5 and snow there ;-) I rememeber Froome being 100+th in some spring races, once it was Tirreno I believe? But it's obvious he chooses races with good weather conditions. and nothing against it, I would do the same, but still it's very questionable how would he deal with weather in Giro - see Rafal Majka for example.

and once more again:
from the group Contador, Froome, Quintana and Nibali.

Who won two GTs in one year?
Contador

Who at least tried G-T double and was at least top 5 in Tour?
Contador

Who has won Giro so far?
Contador, Nibali, Quintana

Who won Vuelta 2014 after participating half Tour?
Contador

Who admit himself that dislikes bad weather?
Froome

Which GT has the more demanding weather conditions?
Giro

Who was not a all good in Vuelta after riding Tour as a domestique?
Froome

and yet you consider Froome the best for double, this is beyond me. I don't say that Bertie would have a better than very small chance to win the double, but that's because with the others riding only Tour it's almost impossible. Still I believe that he's the best choice. Froome hasn't showed anything so far which would make him a favourite for giro-tour double. LaFlo has a point with Froome not able to win Giro - so far he didn't even try to and the theory is against him.

I want you to point to Froome's bad results in bad weather because you were the one bringing them up. I can't remember any, so I expect you to do so when you state that he's bad in bad weather. You bring up a Tirreno result. Which exactly? I remember one stage. He lost a few seconds to Contador.

I'm not saying that Froome is likely to do the Giro-Tour double. In fact, I find it highly unlikely. He's just more likely than anyone else.

The question really comes down to this: Who would you back to win the Giro-Tour double?

a) The world's best GT rider who might not even have reached his peak level yet?
b) The world's second or third best GT rider who is declining and has two failed double attempts in the last five years against questional competition in the Giro?

The one that doesn't fade in the 3rd week of a GT even though he's on top form.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Contador solid in the 2011 Tour? What race did you watch? He was way below his usual level. And in 2015 he was bad as well. Contador has shown that he can't do the double. No shame in that.

Froome is the best GT rider and is the rider capable of peaking over the longest period of time. If he set his mind to it, I would definitely rate him higher than Contador for a double attempt.

Also, could you point me to a few results where Froome has been affected by the bad weather? Honest question, because I don't really remember any.

This really doesn't have any sense
Of course he was below his usual level in TdF2011, he was attempting a non-planed Giro-Tour double, what would you expect? He lost time because of a crash and if I rememeber correctly he himself crashed then also. Then of course hhe made crazy attacks and tried to find his luck, which is adorable IMHO. His performace was good and I still believe he would be on the podium without the stage 1 stupid crash.
Why do you want me to point out Froome's results affected by the bad weather. Froome? The guy who is hiding his ass in South Africa because it's too cold in Europe? This Froome should win on Passo dello Stelvio? Mate, I climbed it once in August and it was -5 and snow there ;-) I rememeber Froome being 100+th in some spring races, once it was Tirreno I believe? But it's obvious he chooses races with good weather conditions. and nothing against it, I would do the same, but still it's very questionable how would he deal with weather in Giro - see Rafal Majka for example.

and once more again:
from the group Contador, Froome, Quintana and Nibali.

Who won two GTs in one year?
Contador

Who at least tried G-T double and was at least top 5 in Tour?
Contador

Who has won Giro so far?
Contador, Nibali, Quintana

Who won Vuelta 2014 after participating half Tour?
Contador

Who admit himself that dislikes bad weather?
Froome

Which GT has the more demanding weather conditions?
Giro

Who was not a all good in Vuelta after riding Tour as a domestique?
Froome

and yet you consider Froome the best for double, this is beyond me. I don't say that Bertie would have a better than very small chance to win the double, but that's because with the others riding only Tour it's almost impossible. Still I believe that he's the best choice. Froome hasn't showed anything so far which would make him a favourite for giro-tour double. LaFlo has a point with Froome not able to win Giro - so far he didn't even try to and the theory is against him.

I want you to point to Froome's bad results in bad weather because you were the one bringing them up. I can't remember any, so I expect you to do so when you state that he's bad in bad weather. You bring up a Tirreno result. Which exactly? I remember one stage. He lost a few seconds to Contador.

I'm not saying that Froome is likely to do the Giro-Tour double. In fact, I find it highly unlikely. He's just more likely than anyone else.

The question really comes down to this: Who would you back to win the Giro-Tour double?

a) The world's best GT rider who might not even have reached his peak level yet?
b) The world's second or third best GT rider who is declining and has two failed double attempts in the last five years against questional competition in the Giro?

The one that doesn't fade in the 3rd week of a GT even though he's on top form.

You mean the one who can't be in top form in the first two weeks but only in the third? I'd rather take the one who's actually capable of peaking for two weeks and not just one in a GT.

 

[Red Rick]

I'm taking the ones that have won a GT and then went on to be competitive in the very next one.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Alberto made the mistake of coming into the Giro under form, thinking he would have the margin to win it anyway and then peak for the Tour.

All that happened, though, was that such a hard Giro taxed him too excessively and he was never able to recover for the Tour.

IMO the Giro -Tour doubble is still possible, extremely risky and difficult, but possible. But you have to treat the Giro as if it were the only objective and come in top shape, to not overly-burn the system to win it, to then rest between and start the Tour a notch off, but race back into top shape by the first MTF.

It's what the bigs who won both in the same year did before. People could thus be in for a surprise with Nibali, if he wins the Giro and then starts the Tour.

What I find odd is that Basso appeared to approach it the way you suggest, i.e. peaking for the Giro, and they presumably brought in Basso for his knowledge of attempting the double and then decided on a different approach.

True, Basso had a real chance on 2006.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re:

I'm taking the ones that have won a GT and then went on to be competitive in the very next one.

OK, so not Froome and not Contador. Who then?

 

[dacooley]

overwhelming majority of ac fans as always handle froome extremely sceptically.

 

[Miburo]

Re:

overwhelming majority of ac fans as always handle froome extremely sceptically.

That's true, but that's always the case with every fanbase when they talk about their idol's biggest rival.

 

[Carols]

Re:

Froome also has no obvious weaknesses, like Wiggins had in '13.

Who knew Wiggins would turn into a grandmom going downhill in the wet?

I for one doubt Froome could stay on the bike in the unpredictable weather of the Giro.

If anyone could do the double again it would have been Contador of 2008/2009 had he prepared to do it. Now he is to old .

 

[railxmig]

Re: Re:

overwhelming majority of ac fans as always handle froome extremely sceptically.

That's true, but that's always the case with every fanbase when they talk about their idol's biggest rival.

Maybe it's not allways about only rivarly. Froome has some values that are theoretically against him. Sometimes his personality can be dodgy (some interviews, his book), his racing strategy seems to be uninspired (but effective) and riding style... distinctive, his origins are extremely over the top (basically from almost zero to hero) and maybe the biggest value - he's riding for Sky who's not the most beloved group in the world. Maybe scratch his riding style, as Alberto himself has quite distinctive style (as i like to call "Samba de Janeiro").

I personally don't mind Froome. I even like his very "out there" riding style. He is agressive, but more in Armstrong terms, not Pantani or Contador. He seems to be even more agressive than Quintana, who seems to be prone to conservative behaviour. Personality wise, at least for now, he's a class higher than Nibali (subjective) and worlds better than The Cobra or Armstrong (practically objective). If he would turn out to be the best GT guy right now... it wouldn't be any end of the world for me. I obviously dunno if he's objectively the best GT wise right now, but he's right there in contention and he has some results in his dossier.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

I'm taking the ones that have won a GT and then went on to be competitive in the very next one.

OK, so not Froome and not Contador. Who then?

Have you seen the Tour in 2011?

 

[BlurryVII]

This guy thinks Froome has the best chances for the double when he can't even keep his form for 3 weeks. And completely fades away at the first scratch (crash) .

Best GT Rider? He isn't better than Contador, that's for sure. AC won more GT's post ban than Froome. Froome beat him in the Tour 13', off season for AC, and Tour 15' with the Giro in his legs. <edited by mods>

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

I'm taking the ones that have won a GT and then went on to be competitive in the very next one.

OK, so not Froome and not Contador. Who then?

Have you seen the Tour in 2011?

I believe I have yes. Did you see Contador competing for the win in the 2011 Tour? Because if you did, I might have to rewatch it.