Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[staubsauger]

Re: Re:

I agree with Damien also. Since the beginning of his career until today, I have never seen Contador as a leader, probably because he didn't need a team. He was the best by far, so his team was kind of useless. That means that he hasn't had the chance of developing his leadership skills.

But in the last 2/3 years he needed a team, but unfortunately I have never seen him using it properly.
Sure there are colleagues and former colleagues who fancy him, after all, he's not a ruthless guy. But I believe many of his former colleagues see him as a colleague and not as a leader. And on top of it, I doubt the majority of the DS he worked with have great leadership skills, apart from Bruynel.

Yeah, those former teammates don't specifically like him as a leader, they appreciate and respect him as an athlete and person. But if we have to believe damian13ster he is a di.ck who throws pathetic temper tantrums and is never grateful towards his teammates. Okay then, I'm sure he knows best

Well, there were this issues with Leipheimer in 2007 & 2008. Later nearly the whole Astana team build themselves around Armstrong, despite Lance being Lance and also being the weaker bike rider and obviously no longer the boss. Half the team went to Radioshack, that still tells something. Even at Astana there were some bad vibrations later on between Vino and Contador after Alberto chased down one Vino attack. Then obviously at Saxo/Tinkoff he never got his support team worked due to different reasons. So in fact there must be some reason with Contador for it just like there are reasons elsewhere. His behavior obviously hasn't been very good all the time based on this history line. I wouldn't be as harsh as dam1anster though ...

so Bruyneel and Lance loyalists siding with Armstrong over Contador is a sign he isn't a good leader ? :surprised:

Zubeldia, Klöden, Paulinho (Although he still worked for Contador as well), Rast & Muravyev never belonged to Armstrong's original inner circle like Leipheimer did!

And as I pointed out. The bad communication between Contador and Leipheimer started out earlier already. In fact the only time Contador used his team in perfection might be the 2008 Giro. But there he desperately needed Rubiera & Klöden as well. Leipheimer wasn't that much of a help if my memory is right!?

 

[hrotha]

It's a fact that Contador has had similar problems in almost all his teams. At some point he'll have to look at himself.

 

[red zone]

Re: Re:

I agree with Damien also. Since the beginning of his career until today, I have never seen Contador as a leader, probably because he didn't need a team. He was the best by far, so his team was kind of useless. That means that he hasn't had the chance of developing his leadership skills.

But in the last 2/3 years he needed a team, but unfortunately I have never seen him using it properly.
Sure there are colleagues and former colleagues who fancy him, after all, he's not a ruthless guy. But I believe many of his former colleagues see him as a colleague and not as a leader. And on top of it, I doubt the majority of the DS he worked with have great leadership skills, apart from Bruynel.

Yeah, those former teammates don't specifically like him as a leader, they appreciate and respect him as an athlete and person. But if we have to believe damian13ster he is a di.ck who throws pathetic temper tantrums and is never grateful towards his teammates. Okay then, I'm sure he knows best

Well, there were this issues with Leipheimer in 2007 & 2008. Later nearly the whole Astana team build themselves around Armstrong, despite Lance being Lance and also being the weaker bike rider and obviously no longer the boss. Half the team went to Radioshack, that still tells something. Even at Astana there were some bad vibrations later on between Vino and Contador after Alberto chased down one Vino attack. Then obviously at Saxo/Tinkoff he never got his support team worked due to different reasons. So in fact there must be some reason with Contador for it just like there are reasons elsewhere. His behavior obviously hasn't been very good all the time based on this history line. I wouldn't be as harsh as dam1anster though ...

so Bruyneel and Lance loyalists siding with Armstrong over Contador is a sign he isn't a good leader ? :surprised:

Zubeldia, Klöden, Paulinho (Although he still worked for Contador as well), Rast & Muravyev never belonged to Armstrong's original inner circle like Leipheimer did!

And as I pointed out. The bad communication between Contador and Leipheimer started out earlier already. In fact the only time Contador used his team in perfection might be the 2008 Giro. But there he desperately needed Rubiera & Klöden as well. Leipheimer wasn't that much of a help if my memory is right!?

Johan was making sure the team (even those not connected to Lance) was working for Lance , there may be valid reasons to knock Alberto as a leader but this isn't one of them .

 

[Miburo]

Re:

It's a fact that Contador has had similar problems in almost all his teams. At some point he'll have to look at himself.

I think in Astana 2010 he's the one who messed up the most not telling vino his plans to leave.

Astana '09 wasn't his fault though, unless you've any reason to say so?

 

[Taxus4a]

Wich is the problem with the team now? He is been placed pèrfecly in every stage in la Vuelta before the last climb.

Of course Movistar has a superteam, but no more.

Contador is a great rider, as cycling fan I am happy he attacked in la Hueseratodayandhis way toundestand cycling (at least in the race)

I cant understand why to talk about the team now...

There are 2 better riders for 3 weaks, Froome and Quintana, but he is a great rider and he has got important things after his santion. even to beat Froome at the Vuelta (with the same level than now both of them, so with luck or mistake of the of rivals, but a great victory, of course)

If you prefer to talk about the team instead admit this you are not objetive.

You can still think than Contador in Dauphiné wanst at the same shape than Froome and to live in your own world.

Before his antion of course it doent count .he was the best of the world by far, but it was another era.

 

[Angliru]

This is b.s.. It's the ds job to make certain everyone knows what their responsibility is. If you have a rider that everyone is riding for the idea is that the team makes the entire event as stress free as possible for him to perform optimally. Do your job. The Armstrong/Bruyneel/Contador Astana team was a powder keg of unavoidable dysfunction. A ds subservient to the returning Armstrong with the lapdog Leipheimer united with his hero. So giddy with joy they likely had to add a special Depends chamois to his little shorts. Some riders lead by example, by their effort, their professionalism and dedication to their craft and training.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

It's a fact that Contador has had similar problems in almost all his teams. At some point he'll have to look at himself.

I think in Astana 2010 he's the one who messed up the most not telling vino his plans to leave.

Astana '09 wasn't his fault though, unless you've any reason to say so?

I didn't say anything about 2009 specifically, but it keeps happening, and there's no Bruyneel/Armstrong anymore.

 

[red zone]

Re: Re:

I don't understand what people are saying about Contador not being a leader , this isn't like football where your leader doesn't have to be your best player .

in cycling you designate your best cyclist to be your leader , personality doesn't come into it and if there's a problem with the team not supporting it's designated leader then that comes down to a weak DS or an individual who doesn't know his role

Think the problem is more that Contador doesn't use his team effectively. He can't organize his team well and make them support him well; although this is partly a failing of the DS as well. Obviously he's team leader, but he still has to make it clear to team-mates on the road how they can best support him, and communicate clearly when he needs help, and how they can help him. Instead, he seems to follow the pattern of: pick a team full of his mates who aren't very good, get isolated early and then have to fend for himself the last 10km by himself.

I agree , except in his defense , a rider like Contador has never really needed a team like say how Froome does . When you've always been a champion based on your raw ability and winning races on your own , you really never develop the sense of how to use your team mates to the best advantage .

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I don't understand what people are saying about Contador not being a leader , this isn't like football where your leader doesn't have to be your best player .

in cycling you designate your best cyclist to be your leader , personality doesn't come into it and if there's a problem with the team not supporting it's designated leader then that comes down to a weak DS or an individual who doesn't know his role

Think the problem is more that Contador doesn't use his team effectively. He can't organize his team well and make them support him well; although this is partly a failing of the DS as well. Obviously he's team leader, but he still has to make it clear to team-mates on the road how they can best support him, and communicate clearly when he needs help, and how they can help him. Instead, he seems to follow the pattern of: pick a team full of his mates who aren't very good, get isolated early and then have to fend for himself the last 10km by himself.

Since when is this any different than any other team with a rider with influence of Contador? You exaggerate of course. He isn't responsible for the selection of every rider but it's natural that a couple of the riders are chosen with appeasing the team leader in mind.

Additionally what is the point of the ds having radio contact if he's not going to bark out instructions. The designated road captain takes on this responsibility as well. Rogers is missed in this regard in the mountains.

 

[IndianCyclist]

The team's job is to make sure that he reaches the start of the last climb safely without wasting any energy. This they have done except for the crash in the flat stages. The coordination is done by the DS and the road captain and not typically by the team leader to avoid undue stress. On the last climb it is not necessary to have a teammate as long as there are other strong teams like Sky or movistar or Astana to keep the race pace high to prevent it from becoming more tactical. The problem is whether Contador knows his own limits. No he does not and he is not in 2009,2011,2014 form. He has never learnt to ride at a lower pace, on how to control aggression in contrast to Valverde.

 

[jilbiker]

Re: Re:

I agree with Damien also. Since the beginning of his career until today, I have never seen Contador as a leader, probably because he didn't need a team. He was the best by far, so his team was kind of useless. That means that he hasn't had the chance of developing his leadership skills.

But in the last 2/3 years he needed a team, but unfortunately I have never seen him using it properly.
Sure there are colleagues and former colleagues who fancy him, after all, he's not a ruthless guy. But I believe many of his former colleagues see him as a colleague and not as a leader. And on top of it, I doubt the majority of the DS he worked with have great leadership skills, apart from Bruynel.

Yeah, those former teammates don't specifically like him as a leader, they appreciate and respect him as an athlete and person. But if we have to believe damian13ster he is a di.ck who throws pathetic temper tantrums and is never grateful towards his teammates. Okay then, I'm sure he knows best

Well, there were this issues with Leipheimer in 2007 & 2008. Later nearly the whole Astana team build themselves around Armstrong, despite Lance being Lance and also being the weaker bike rider and obviously no longer the boss. Half the team went to Radioshack, that still tells something. Even at Astana there were some bad vibrations later on between Vino and Contador after Alberto chased down one Vino attack. Then obviously at Saxo/Tinkoff he never got his support team worked due to different reasons. So in fact there must be some reason with Contador for it just like there are reasons elsewhere. His behavior obviously hasn't been very good all the time based on this history line. I wouldn't be as harsh as dam1anster though ...

At some point we have to stop blaming others and lay the blame at the doorstep of Mr AC. Yet leadership is not natural to many people. An effective leader must have an element of cut throat, my way or the highway. An element of it. Armstrong had a truckload, Vino has a truckload, Blairsford has a load, interesting all these teams has produced results in the years in service. AC is a whatever, everyone do their own thing. I can win on my own so who cares. Well as you get older you really do need a team and you need that no nonsense leadership approach to steer the ship. But if its not naturally there and you did not consciously acquire it in your younger years and your team manager/owner does not have it, then it will not suddenly appear.

 

[Jelantik]

Re:

Renee Meijer ‏@reneemeijer02 6h6 hours ago
Some riders forget that they still have a contract to serve until 1-1-2017, so try to stick with it and then focus on your new team.....

Tinkoff is divided. Has been for a long time.

On side there is Contador with De Jongh and his pets other side there is Sagan, Majka, Kreuziger.

Whole team was angry with Contador when he abandoned le Tour. Most felt he could have fight through and continued on TdF. Think all of them joined the other side there.

Tinkoff should learn from Sky. In Sky no one has their own agenda. Well, money talks maybe. I remember reading Landa's interview before the tour saying that he hope he was given an opportunity to chase for stage win. Well, when the tour started, there's no word from Landa about that again. All hands on deck for Froome. And saw hime day in day out ride in front of the train just like any body else. None of that personal glory stuff. That's why sky was so powerful because there's no body ride with their own agenda. They commit to be a domestique and "'do it so well." When they ride, they ride as a unit. Considering the name on the roaster, they are just as big or bigger than Kreuziger or Majka. The last time Tinkoff close to ride as a unit was in 2014. Unfortunately Contador crashed. Loosing Rogers was huge.

And the team folded doesn't help with the case either.

It'll be interesting when he gets to Trek. (if he gets to it? since there's no announcement yet)

 

[Jelantik]

At least some one in the forum has called it. "when Contador drops, he drops like a stone".

On the other hand, when Froome drops he definitely will claw back and drop his opponent who drops him. Maybe Contador should learn that mastery. He doesn't have the power like he used to be.

 

[Jelantik]

Re:

Doesn't seem to have it right now, but is still my favourite for the 3rd spot on the podium. He will take loads of time on Chaves in the ITT and Valverde... well, I don't even know.

Hoping he will race the Giro and Vuelta next year, the Giro could be spectacular, but Im pretty certain at this point he can't contend for the Tour. Will be a waste if Froome or Quintana shows up at 100%.

A slight bright spot on Camperona, but otherwise, very disappointing showing from Contador.

well if he keeps sabotaging himself by regularly hitting the tarmac (by bad luck of his own fault), forget about giro or vuelta win. His old body can't take a beating and be able to win GT. He needs to stay upright before he will have a chance.

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

The team's job is to make sure that he reaches the start of the last climb safely without wasting any energy. This they have done except for the crash in the flat stages. The coordination is done by the DS and the road captain and not typically by the team leader to avoid undue stress. On the last climb it is not necessary to have a teammate as long as there are other strong teams like Sky or movistar or Astana to keep the race pace high to prevent it from becoming more tactical. The problem is whether Contador knows his own limits. No he does not and he is not in 2009,2011,2014 form. He has never learnt to ride at a lower pace, on how to control aggression in contrast to Valverde.

He did exactly that at the 2008 Giro and used his team exactly for that in this race. Which stands out even more as his real major career victory now I realize he has never accomplished that approach again.

Oh and I think Valverde simply ain't peaking to win a gt anymore, because he knows he can't normally. He tried it multiple times and it finally worked out in 2009. Since then he looks more to hit very good, but not his best shape, to contend for a podium spot. 2012 stoods out again of course, because he was very strong in the Vuelta.

 

[Jelantik]

Didn't know that Quintana was crashed earlier on the stage. That makes his win even more impressive. Clearly Contador doesn't have the fitness (even w/o his injury) to compete with Froome and Quintana.

Quintana said he had crashed early on the stage when the front part of the bunch went down and as there were a number of riders braking hard, he fell. "It hurts a lot, but I hope it doesn't last too long. My hip, elbow and knee are all injured. Thanks be to God, this Tuesday we have a much-deserved restday and I will take advantage of that to ease back a little and rest."

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

Renee Meijer ‏@reneemeijer02 6h6 hours ago
Some riders forget that they still have a contract to serve until 1-1-2017, so try to stick with it and then focus on your new team.....

Tinkoff is divided. Has been for a long time.

On side there is Contador with De Jongh and his pets other side there is Sagan, Majka, Kreuziger.

Whole team was angry with Contador when he abandoned le Tour. Most felt he could have fight through and continued on TdF. Think all of them joined the other side there.

Tinkoff should learn from Sky. In Sky no one has their own agenda. Well, money talks maybe. I remember reading Landa's interview before the tour saying that he hope he was given an opportunity to chase for stage win. Well, when the tour started, there's no word from Landa about that again. All hands on deck for Froome. And saw hime day in day out ride in front of the train just like any body else. None of that personal glory stuff. That's why sky was so powerful because there's no body ride with their own agenda. They commit to be a domestique and "'do it so well." When they ride, they ride as a unit. Considering the name on the roaster, they are just as big or bigger than Kreuziger or Majka. The last time Tinkoff close to ride as a unit was in 2014. Unfortunately Contador crashed. Loosing Rogers was huge.

And the team folded doesn't help with the case either.

It'll be interesting when he gets to Trek. (if he gets to it? since there's no announcement yet)

But what could do Majka,Kreuziger, Valgren or Oleg if team leader could not stay on bike?

 

[Matteo.]

Re: Re:

I've already said that reading so the timing makes little sense.

30s went faster than 2014 and that data alone is enough to say that he had a better( or similar, nothing change) shape ?

A single piece of data of one climb a whole year .... is enough to make a final judgment ?

I this year I made a couple of climbs improving my two record of 2014 .... but this does not say absolutely that I'm stronger overall .

Rather.

A given only on the time taken alone is worth nothing. There are dozens of factors to consider

And in the previous page , i already answered you on froome and contador at vuelta 2014

quote="Taxus4a"]

Come on taxus. Similar level of 2014...you don't believe even you.
And even his worse haters

In fact, itis the best time ever for alberto in Los Lagos.

http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/08/amazing-new-entries-in-top-100-lagos-de.html

I argue you several reasons why I think he is the same or similar to 2014, now you can argue, not just to say, come on,..or non sense thing like that... You know that I analyze cycling, not just first impresions

Quintana is a little bit better, but in 2014 he couldnt reach the best stages for him.[/quote]

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Well, there were this issues with Leipheimer in 2007 & 2008. Later nearly the whole Astana team build themselves around Armstrong, despite Lance being Lance and also being the weaker bike rider and obviously no longer the boss. Half the team went to Radioshack, that still tells something. Even at Astana there were some bad vibrations later on between Vino and Contador after Alberto chased down one Vino attack. Then obviously at Saxo/Tinkoff he never got his support team worked due to different reasons. So in fact there must be some reason with Contador for it just like there are reasons elsewhere. His behavior obviously hasn't been very good all the time based on this history line. I wouldn't be as harsh as dam1anster though ...

what is the common theme for all those occasions, though? That's right, domestiques who felt Contador should not have had the right to outperform them. In 2007 Leipheimer was the designated leader yet got beaten by a rookie. In 2008, Leipheimer was at a similar level but Alberto won. In 2009, Lance was manipulative as usual and got the entire team to support him instead of Alberto, while Alberto was obviously the strongest. 2010 is somewhat different, it was a one-time thing, not very smart by Berto to attack with Vino ahead but on the other hand it was his chance to take time on Schleck. They resolved it and Vino got his stage the day after.
Now, these issues with Kreuziger, it is clear to me he is still bitter about 2013, when he probably felt he should have been allowed to ride for himself instead of slaving for Alberto. While that is fair enough, he should have resolved that with the team direction. This vendetta is just pathetic.

 

[staubsauger]

Looking at numbers only never puts things in representative reference to each other. For example all speed numbers from the 2007 Tour are way lower than before or after and we know why. But that eventually was a technical thing regarding all riders. So ultimately you still had Rasmussen, Contador, Evans, Leipheimer, Sastre, Klöden, Kashechkin, Valverde, Zubeldia, Kirchen, Astarloza, Soler etc. all in that year's absolute peak shape battling each other super hard which in fact still makes it one of the hardest if not the hardest TdF of the last 15 years. That's exactly what we saw as well with the Chicken versus Pistolero battle. The data files tell another story though. So I always would be a bit careful to see them as omniscience.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Renee Meijer ‏@reneemeijer02 6h6 hours ago
Some riders forget that they still have a contract to serve until 1-1-2017, so try to stick with it and then focus on your new team.....

Tinkoff is divided. Has been for a long time.

On side there is Contador with De Jongh and his pets other side there is Sagan, Majka, Kreuziger.

Whole team was angry with Contador when he abandoned le Tour. Most felt he could have fight through and continued on TdF. Think all of them joined the other side there.

Well, they've never been in the position to decide between fighting on with 2 muscular tears in their legs and withdrawing because there is another GT to be won :lol:
Why should were be angry anyway? Surely they should have been happy to be released of such a burden?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Paulinho isn't a Bruyneel loyalist but even he joined camp Bruyneel-Armstrong during TdF 2009

He actually didn't. He was the only one who still supported Alberto. If he had stabbed Alberto in the back like that, do you think they'd still be such good friends?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

It's a fact that Contador has had similar problems in almost all his teams. At some point he'll have to look at himself.

That's harsh. Not everyone has a strong enough personality to keep a team together. He's been unlucky to have been caught up in the manipulative web of Johan Bruyneel and later his team was taken over by a Russian psychopath!! I mean what can you expect, if the team owner talks *** about the leader, do you think the domestiques that already have quite a large ego will stay loyal?
When Mick Rogers was still on the team, there were no issues. He was a natural leader. He kept everyone in check. But they start with two leaders, one of them is hyper successful and a funny clown type guy, the other is more reserved and suffers some bad luck. Add to that two or three domestiques with a big ego that were assigned to the more reserved leader, don't you think that is just asking for it to go wrong? Of course the big ego domestiques will use the situation to their advantage. I know you don't like him but it seems obvious to me that Alberto was the victim, not the culprit.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Wich is the problem with the team now? He is been placed pèrfecly in every stage in la Vuelta before the last climb.

The reason we talk about his team is that a certain teammate who used to be his "superdomestique" in 2013 just posted a disgraceful tweet on Twitter.

 

[bambino]

Re: Re:

It's a fact that Contador has had similar problems in almost all his teams. At some point he'll have to look at himself.

That's harsh. Not everyone has a strong enough personality to keep a team together. He's been unlucky to have been caught up in the manipulative web of Johan Bruyneel and later his team was taken over by a Russian psychopath!! I mean what can you expect, if the team owner talks **** about the leader, do you think the domestiques that already have quite a large ego will stay loyal?
When Mick Rogers was still on the team, there were no issues. He was a natural leader. He kept everyone in check. But they start with two leaders, one of them is hyper successful and a funny clown type guy, the other is more reserved and suffers some bad luck. Add to that two or three domestiques with a big ego that were assigned to the more reserved leader, don't you think that is just asking for it to go wrong? Of course the big ego domestiques will use the situation to their advantage. I know you don't like him but it seems obvious to me that Alberto was the victim, not the culprit.

And to me, reading all posts here, it seems you are blind and stubborn to see that there is anyhing wrong with AC's actions.

Fights and arguments always need two parties to flame up and it is merely ridiculous to claim that all these examples were happening just because everyone else were bitter and jelous for AC. I honestly think that he isn't the nicest personality when it comes to team tactics and sprit, but more "my way or highway" type of guy. And he is not the first and the last one in any individual sport who is like that, actually you need to rude and selfish to get into top of the world. That doesn't have to do anything with their personality outside the competition where most of them (includin AC) are really good company.

The change in cycling to become increasingly team sport (led by Sky) on the other hand should alert these kind of personalities to become more team players, as otherwise they will just not win the big races.