An Admission

[joe_papp]

It's so sad people who should know better let themselves be shills for the likes of Papp.

Dude, get over yourself. No one in this forum is naive enough to be manipulated into being a shill for me - nor would I want them to. Start throwing around accusations under your real name, too, while you're at it.

 

[MacRoadie]

Guess they need to update their website then...

9. Do USCF race count the same as CBR races?

Yes, they do. CBR has a reciprocity agreement with the United States Cycling Federation (USCF), which also includes the USCF's local Southern California association, the Southern California-Nevada Cycling Association (SCNCA). The upgrade requirements are the same, so as long as each race (whether CBR or USCF) fulfills their requirements, those races can be used towards a race category upgrade.

Yes, they do. USAC has not been accepting reciprocal points for upgrades since sometime last year.

SCNCA Upgrade Page

Please note that only points/experience earned at races sanctioned by USA Cycling or at a foreign race sanctioned by a UCI affiliated federation will count towards a rider's upgrade.

They even bolded that line so you can't miss it.

In fact, further down the page, where they quote an excerpt from the USAC rule book, they go out of their way to highlight that language in a nice pink box to make sure you don't miss it.

 

[DomesticDomestique]

My take on Papp is that he's doing the best thing possible for the sport at this point, regardless of what he has done in the past and regardless of his motivations for doing so.

Also, consider that if it weren't for Papp, most of these guys would have still found another way to buy. Look at O'Bee and O'Neal for example, it appears both of them had a separate buyer. Considering at least one of the named Papp customers was a Navigators teammate of these guys, I'm sure he would have been buying from their supplier had Papp not been dealing. So in a way I'm thankful that Papp was dealing to these guys because it's better they bought from someone who turned them in, then from some mexican pharmacy. I think in the case of evaluating any of these frauds, you have to weigh their harm and their good. Papp did a lot of harm, but he is now doing a lot of good (regardless of his motivation.) In contrast to Zajicek, O'Neal or O'Bee... Papp is deserving of a high five... that is if you're going to high five anyone in the realm of doping scum.

However this thread was about Leogrande, and I find some irony in him getting ripped by someone posting as SCVelo when I believe his team was registered at Callville Bay as Monster Media p/b SCVelo.

And as for Leogrande and CBR. I support lifetime bans for dopers, so I support what CBR is doing. However, I also believe that we need a respected anti-doping system and things like this and Tyler being denied a start at TOC hurt the respectability of the system in place. In a truly respected anti-doping program, promoters, athletes and governing bodies alike would all follow the same rules. If promoters or governing bodies are going to say screw you to the rules in place, why shouldn't riders.

 

[socalvelo]

Anyway, some entertaining comments in the rules-change thread:

Guess they need to update their website then...

9. Do USCF race count the same as CBR races?

Yes, they do. CBR has a reciprocity agreement with the United States Cycling Federation (USCF), which also includes the USCF's local Southern California association, the Southern California-Nevada Cycling Association (SCNCA). The upgrade requirements are the same, so as long as each race (whether CBR or USCF) fulfills their requirements, those races can be used towards a race category upgrade.

Guess you need to pay attention to what you post instead of cherry picking to try and discredit an honest man.

FROM YOUR OWN POST LINK TITLED "RULES CHANGE THREAD"

2011 CBR rules changes

If USA Cycling refuses to recognize CBR races, then there's no reason to recognize USA Cycling's point system. CBR's reverting back to the old-school USCF upgrade when I upgraded to a Cat. II in 1990: three top-3 or six top-6s. Racers who are interested in advancing do not need experience: they need to place.

2nd change: dopers. Anyone who has ever had suspended racing license, had suffered a revoked racing license, been denied to participate in a race, disqualified from racing or participating in a race as a result of using performance enhancing substances shall not race in CBR-permitted races.

This means that the Steve Heggs, the Tyler Hamiltons & the Floyd Landis' of the world don't race CBR races. Being a cheater is the same as being a liar, and that's a character defect: not an isolated, once in a lifetime mistake. These are not diseased drug addicts with psych problems: these are cheaters, and they are not welcome at local races. They cheat & lie amongst their peers (fellow bicycle racers), as as far as I'm concerned, they can race at USA Cycling....CBR's interested in clean racers who don't lie to their peers.

 

[socalvelo]

However this thread was about Leogrande, and I find some irony in him getting ripped by someone posting as SCVelo when I believe his team was registered at Callville Bay as Monster Media p/b SCVelo.

That is ironic!
And it's too bad the name 'sc velo' is now associated with that... but that's why I joined as "socal" and not "scvelo"

I know many members of SCVelo (the team) and also some of the sponsors and ridrs, which is why I was so surprised. (back to my orig post).

 

[BotanyBay]

It's so sad people who should know better let themselves be shills for the likes of Papp.

You guys don't even have the facts straight.
He testified in the Landis case at the same time he continued to sell drugs
He was not turning a new leaf or breaking some "omerta" b.s. Let him try to revise history. We should all stick to the facts.

He's a 2nd rate doper that would have never made any news except for testifying in the Landis trial. Even in that trial, his testimony was worthless because he was a drug dealer. Zero credibility.

my original concern (which started at page 6) and motivation to post here was finding out about my local race scene- Kayle Leogrande and Suzanne Sonye.

I'm no one's "shill". I just have some life experience and perspective that perhaps you do not.

Sometimes when a guy hits the ground at terminal velocity, he has a tendency to bounce a few times before coming to rest and realizing that he was indeed involved in a flat spin. But once one realizes it, good things can happen (and often do).

Once you understand that hypocrisy is a big part of human nature, you get less pi$$ed off about what he was doing while testifying about Landis.

Papp admits to being a doper, even though he was not actually using the product he was busted for at the time. Likewise for Landis. So don't get hung-up too much about the hypocrisy that happened during Landis' farce of a defense and farce of a hearing. Farces and hypocrisy are part of life.

 

[BotanyBay]

If I'm not mistaken, USAC rescinded ALL the reciprocity agreements they had with all the grass roots and independent organizations.

Just curious, when did they do this, and why? Are they strategically moving closer toward enforcing the monopoly they have?

 

[MacRoadie]

Just curious, when did they do this, and why? Are they strategically moving closer toward enforcing the monopoly they have?

That would be a very good guess. There's really no other reason.

As has been stated before, the fields for CBR and USAC races are IDENTICAL (well except for a few outliers with issues). One Sunday the race happens to be USAC, the next it happens to be CBR.

Ironically, to satisfy the USAC requirement that every USAC club promote at least one race per year, many clubs go to Chris Lotts (CBR) to help them promote their race on his courses because his permits are in place with the respective cities, the courses are familiar, and his logistics are all in place.

This year alone, there will be a good dozen or so races on the same courses with the same fields with the only difference being CBR vs. USAC.

 

[fatandfast]

Guess you need to pay attention to what you post instead of cherry picking to try and discredit an honest man.

FROM YOUR OWN POST LINK TITLED "RULES CHANGE THREAD"

2011 CBR rules changes

If USA Cycling refuses to recognize CBR races, then there's no reason to recognize USA Cycling's point system. CBR's reverting back to the old-school USCF upgrade when I upgraded to a Cat. II in 1990: three top-3 or six top-6s. Racers who are interested in advancing do not need experience: they need to place.

2nd change: dopers. Anyone who has ever had suspended racing license, had suffered a revoked racing license, been denied to participate in a race, disqualified from racing or participating in a race as a result of using performance enhancing substances shall not race in CBR-permitted races.

This means that the Steve Heggs, the Tyler Hamiltons & the Floyd Landis' of the world don't race CBR races. Being a cheater is the same as being a liar, and that's a character defect: not an isolated, once in a lifetime mistake. These are not diseased drug addicts with psych problems: these are cheaters, and they are not welcome at local races. They cheat & lie amongst their peers (fellow bicycle racers), as as far as I'm concerned, they can race at USA Cycling....CBR's interested in clean racers who don't lie to their peers.

while I think CBR has a good thing going..I think your holy description is pretty far off. CBR just doesn't want to find themselves in a spot to do any testing. Inviting riders who have been popped puts them where they don't want to be..did you test? The answer is no..but if they have a guy get a result that had a positive in his past..the next question is why not? No race tests anybody..the federation tests people otherwise the organizers don't have the cash or resources for such BS.

and just for the record..Steve Hegg can smoke you drunk,both arms tied behind his back,single speeded and one crank arm removed off his paperboy bike..even in his bloated condition.

I commend CBR's stance on upgrades you should have to place or win to advance. I hope CBR continues to have good races and good turn outs all the anti-doping stuff is overblown..in every aspect of cyber cycling.

 

[Anonymous]

while I think CBR has a good thing going..I think your holy description is pretty far off. CBR just doesn't want to find themselves in a spot to do any testing. Inviting riders who have been popped puts them where they don't want to be..did you test? The answer is no..but if they have a guy get a result that had a positive in his past..the next question is why not? No race tests anybody..the federation tests people otherwise the organizers don't have the cash or resources for such BS.

and just for the record..Steve Hegg can smoke you drunk,both arms tied behind his back,single speeded and one crank arm removed off his paperboy bike..even in his bloated condition.

I commend CBR's stance on upgrades you should have to place or win to advance. I hope CBR continues to have good races and good turn outs all the anti-doping stuff is overblown..in every aspect of cyber cycling.

Who are you calling bloated?

Hegg's as hilarious as ever. I got called out for taking some "amateur" lines this past weekend and spent two laps hearing about it.

I like the guy and he can still lay down some watts.

As to Lotts and the zero tolerance.... I'm not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, there should be very severe penalties for violations. I'm not ready to say that one violation equals banishment for life.

I think the KL and Hegg situations are very different... the big thing is they were 20 years apart. Whomever pointed out that Lotts has put a 23 year suspension on Hegg makes a good point.

As for Kayle... Let him race. His suspension is served. Trust but verify.

Maybe terms for a convicted doper to come back is to pay for (his or her own) independent dope testing.

 

[BotanyBay]

Ironically, to satisfy the USAC requirement that every USAC club promote at least one race per year, many clubs go to Chris Lotts (CBR) to help them promote their race on his courses because his permits are in place with the respective cities, the courses are familiar, and his logistics are all in place.

Oh God, I'm having Ziggurat flashbacks. I once loved that course and eventually came to hate it (raced on it too many times by 1987 or so). I miss the days of the "Pyramid Classic". I think every po-dunk OC club satisfied their 1-race per year requirement at Ziggurat between '86 and '88.

 

[darkcloud]

BotanyBay,
Please drop the accusations of people defending "omerta" when they are not. You accused me and now you level the same accusation at nolimit. JP does what JP does for himself and nobody else. I doubt that he would be helping investigators if they told him that doing so would in no way help his own defense.
Omerta was just fine for all of these dopers until they were offered deals and there is absolutely no honor in that.
Now, don't go twisting my words around.
DC

 

[fatandfast]

Who are you calling bloated?

Hegg's as hilarious as ever. I got called out for taking some "amateur" lines this past weekend and spent two laps hearing about it.

I like the guy and he can still lay down some watts.

As to Lotts and the zero tolerance.... I'm not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, there should be very severe penalties for violations. I'm not ready to say that one violation equals banishment for life.

I think the KL and Hegg situations are very different... the big thing is they were 20 years apart. Whomever pointed out that Lotts has put a 23 year suspension on Hegg makes a good point.

As for Kayle... Let him race. His suspension is served. Trust but verify.

Maybe terms for a convicted doper to come back is to pay for (his or her own) independent dope testing.

a 23 year suspension is no problem for Hegg he will just ask David Brinton to use his license. I will take back the bloated and say puffy

 

[BotanyBay]

BotanyBay,
Please drop the accusations of people defending "omerta" when they are not. You accused me and now you level the same accusation at nolimit. JP does what JP does for himself and nobody else. I doubt that he would be helping investigators if they told him that doing so would in no way help his own defense.
Omerta was just fine for all of these dopers until they were offered deals and there is absolutely no honor in that.
Now, don't go twisting my words around.
DC

If you phrase your words in a manner that indicates Omerta apologism, then I'm going to call them like I see 'em. And I still see 'em that way. You seem to hate the fact that he's turned state's evidence more than the acts of doping or doping sales. If you don't MEAN that, then don't lay-down those kinds of words.

I never said I think the guy should be given a medal for cooperating, but I think it's good that he has done so. Take that at face value. You seem to have pointed disdain for his having also cooperated, as if he should just shut-up and take his "longer" punishment (why you think he should choose this path is unclear to me... shut-up so that he spends more time in jail? shut up to uphold Omerta? you need to pick).

Everyone on planet Earth is out for themselves. Get past it.

 

[BotanyBay]

a 23 year suspension is no problem for Hegg he will just ask David Brinton to use his license. I will take back the bloated and say puffy

Brinton is a cool guy. You saying he's involved in cheating?

 

[Elagabalus]

...

Cowards cheat because they believe, to the core, they can't do it.
Vultures peddle cowardice to justify their own lack of self-worth.
Children mock the actions of men because they don't understand what it means to stand up for your convictions...

To be fair, after perusing other threads on the CBR Blog ALL the comments (and commenters) seem to be firmly planted in the "Children" category!( No matter where they stand wrt this issue). In fact, after staying a bit too long over at the CBR Blog I am now seriously worried I might have a skewed testosterone/epitestosterone ratio. The testosterone veritably flew off those pages into my computer out to my mouse and into my hand! I suppose I shouldn't complain-thanks for reminding me why I never do group rides anymore.


... meanwhile back on topic...

It seems KL, while riding for Rock Racing, got to stay with the Pro-Tour guys in house #1 with a private chef while the rest of the domestic racers had to settle house #2 and frozen dinners. I wonder why that might be ...

check out this interview with Cesar Grajales

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/

about halfway done right after the photo of Ball and his Merc

 

[Semper Fidelis]

So where do YOU stand? Pro-doping or anti-rat?

No limits--- man--- No limits.

 

[darkcloud]

If you phrase your words in a manner that indicates Omerta apologism, then I'm going to call them like I see 'em. And I still see 'em that way. You seem to hate the fact that he's turned state's evidence more than the acts of doping or doping sales. If you don't MEAN that, then don't lay-down those kinds of words.

I never said I think the guy should be given a medal for cooperating, but I think it's good that he has done so. Take that at face value. You seem to have pointed disdain for his having also cooperated, as if he should just shut-up and take his "longer" punishment (why you think he should choose this path is unclear to me... shut-up so that he spends more time in jail? shut up to uphold Omerta? you need to pick).

Everyone on planet Earth is out for themselves. Get past it.

BotanyBay,
Had JP turned these guys in BEFORE he was busted, I'd give him all the accolades in the world and respect him for coming clean. That would be have been HONORABLE.
Doing so AFTER he was busted is nothing more than looking out for number one. That is good in the over-all scheme of things, but he gets no free pass or a*s kissing from me. He would still be cheating and fu*king other riders out of results had he not been busted. BIG DIFFERENCE. Get off your omerta accusing jihad and stop twisting words around.
Pretty simple actually. Give your act a rest.
DC

 

[BotanyBay]

BotanyBay,
Had JP turned these guys in BEFORE he was busted, I'd give him all the accolades in the world and respect him for coming clean. That would be have been HONORABLE.
Doing so AFTER he was busted is nothing more than looking out for number one. That is good in the over-all scheme of things, but he gets no free pass or a*s kissing from me. He would still be cheating and fu*king other riders out of results had he not been busted. BIG DIFFERENCE. Get off your omerta accusing jihad and stop twisting words around.
Pretty simple actually. Give your act a rest.
DC

See, you're twisting MY words. I never said he deserved "accolades" (nor do I even demand that others offer him respect) for cooperating. It's merely the right thing to do, and beats the alternative chosen by 99% of those who have been caught. No medals awarded, but perhaps he can be awarded a few points for choosing the better path. Few choose it. I have no knowledge as to any kind of "understanding" that exists between he, USADA and the Feds, and neither do you. So how can you possibly know his motivation? But since he's made the right choice, I'm willing to say "good on ya" and cease kicking a man who is clearly down.

Being that few (if any) riders just get off the bike, call Travis on the phone and admit to using PEDs without first getting caught, I'm willing to settle for Papp's post-bust choices.

Beware of these:

 

[JustOld]

Who are you calling bloated?

Hegg's as hilarious as ever. I got called out for taking some "amateur" lines this past weekend and spent two laps hearing about it.

I like the guy and he can still lay down some watts.

As to Lotts and the zero tolerance.... I'm not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, there should be very severe penalties for violations. I'm not ready to say that one violation equals banishment for life.

I think the KL and Hegg situations are very different... the big thing is they were 20 years apart. Whomever pointed out that Lotts has put a 23 year suspension on Hegg makes a good point.

As for Kayle... Let him race. His suspension is served. Trust but verify.

Maybe terms for a convicted doper to come back is to pay for (his or her own) independent dope testing.

I was trying to post this and it disappeared. If a similar post shows up, sorry. Hegg used to do CBR races and this year Lotts goes zero tolerance and calls out Hegg for a 1988 caffeine positive. He then blogs about Steve's family life. The reason Lotts was mad is because he was trying to bang some cat 4 chick and she liked Hegg.
Scott I'm not sure how long you've been around. Hegg and I were talking before his race and he was complaining that, "some of the new guys take wierd lines in the corners." Obviously, he was still thinking this when you guys raced and you had it verbalized to you. We also talked about Lotts, since his posts about Hegg are part of why I won't do his races. Like Steve said, "Don't **** where you eat."

 

[Semper Fidelis]

BotanyBay,
Had JP turned these guys in BEFORE he was busted, I'd give him all the accolades in the world and respect him for coming clean. That would be have been HONORABLE.
Doing so AFTER he was busted is nothing more than looking out for number one. That is good in the over-all scheme of things, but he gets no free pass or a*s kissing from me. He would still be cheating and fu*king other riders out of results had he not been busted. BIG DIFFERENCE. Get off your omerta accusing jihad and stop twisting words around.
Pretty simple actually. Give your act a rest.
DC

Anata wa, nani ga ....................

Hontoni?

 

[Anonymous]

BotanyBay,
Had JP turned these guys in BEFORE he was busted, I'd give him all the accolades in the world and respect him for coming clean. That would be have been HONORABLE.
Doing so AFTER he was busted is nothing more than looking out for number one. That is good in the over-all scheme of things, but he gets no free pass or a*s kissing from me. He would still be cheating and fu*king other riders out of results had he not been busted. BIG DIFFERENCE. Get off your omerta accusing jihad and stop twisting words around.
Pretty simple actually. Give your act a rest.
DC

WOW, you know eeeevvvveeeerrrrrryyyyything...

 

[Race Radio]

Anata wa, nani ga ....................

Hontoni?

Targzissians are obviously reptilian.

 

[BotanyBay]

Great tool for twisting words:

http://www.gizoogle.com/

 

[Anonymous]

I was trying to post this and it disappeared. If a similar post shows up, sorry. Hegg used to do CBR races and this year Lotts goes zero tolerance and calls out Hegg for a 1988 caffeine positive. He then blogs about Steve's family life. The reason Lotts was mad is because he was trying to bang some cat 4 chick and she liked Hegg.
Scott I'm not sure how long you've been around. Hegg and I were talking before his race and he was complaining that, "some of the new guys take wierd lines in the corners." Obviously, he was still thinking this when you guys raced and you had it verbalized to you. We also talked about Lotts, since his posts about Hegg are part of why I won't do his races. Like Steve said, "Don't **** where you eat."

I don't know the deal between Lotts and Hegg. If it's as you say then that's unfortunate.

I've been bumping around the masters cycling scene for over 10 years. I've been in events with Hegg many, many times before... He can be 'vocal'. I don't know him except at the races but you can't help but like the guy. Oh, and then there is his palmares.