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Andre Cardoso positive for EPO

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Jun 27, 2009
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just thought I'd throw this up here, it's the new improved EPO detection and analysis how to do sheet... Personally, I'm amazed with the amount of steps and their complexity, not to mention using a witch's brew of stuff like milk powder, mouse anti-human EPO antibody, and secondary goat anti-mouse IgG (H+L), conjugated with a horseradish peroxidase.... ?? Hard to think that a accurate and viable positive can be derived from all of this.. and so conveniently to a member of a major rival's team just before the world's biggest cycle race... I'm smelling set up...

http://www.dyeagnostics.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Application_Note_Improvements-for-EPO-detection_Schwenke_2015.pdf
 
Re:

S2Sturges said:
just thought I'd throw this up here, it's the new improved EPO detection and analysis how to do sheet... Personally, I'm amazed with the amount of steps and their complexity, not to mention using a witch's brew of stuff like milk powder, mouse anti-human EPO antibody, and secondary goat anti-mouse IgG (H+L), conjugated with a horseradish peroxidase.... ?? Hard to think that a accurate and viable positive can be derived from all of this.. and so conveniently to a member of a major rival's team just before the world's biggest cycle race... I'm smelling set up...

http://www.dyeagnostics.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Application_Note_Improvements-for-EPO-detection_Schwenke_2015.pdf
No, this is standard procedure. Milk proteins are used to reduce non-specific binding, i.e., binding of the primary antibody to proteins other than the target, in this case, EPO. The secondary antibody is used to detect the primary antibody, and thus EPO. Horseradish peroxidase, very commonly used in this procedure, is attached to the secondary antibody. It catalyzes the conversion of certain substrates to a chemiluminescent product, that is, something that emits light or glows.

Thus in a nutshell, the EPO molecules are separated by molecular weight on gels, which they move through when an electric charge is put across the gels. The gels have pores of a certain size. The smaller the EPO molecule, the more easily it passes through these pores, and thus the further down the gel it travels in a given length of time. So the molecular weight, which is used to identify the type of EPO, is inversely proportional to the distance down the gel it’s found. The EPO molecules in the gel are located by chemiluminescence, after binding to the antibodies. You actually see colored bands on the gels, and by measuring the intensity of the color, one can quantify the amount of EPO present in the band.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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I find it interesting that everybody uncritically assumes he tested positive for EPO.
Just because uncle Brian and the UCI say so?
Seems we didnt learn much from Floyd's case.
Might as well believe Cookson and UCI, too, then, when they say the sport is largely clean, motors are not a problem, etc.

Sad fact of the matter is, in current 'antidoping' climate, we don't really know what he tested positive for.
 
Re:

sniper said:
I find it interesting that everybody uncritically assumes he tested positive for EPO.
Just because uncle Brian and the UCI say so?
Seems we didnt learn much from Floyd's case.
Might as well believe Cookson and UCI, too, then, when they say the sport is largely clean, motors are not a problem, etc.

Sad fact of the matter is, in current 'antidoping' climate, we don't really know what he tested positive for.
You'd be the world's worst journalist! You'd end up never writing a single story. :D
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Squire said:
sniper said:
I find it interesting that everybody uncritically assumes he tested positive for EPO.
Just because uncle Brian and the UCI say so?
Seems we didnt learn much from Floyd's case.
Might as well believe Cookson and UCI, too, then, when they say the sport is largely clean, motors are not a problem, etc.

Sad fact of the matter is, in current 'antidoping' climate, we don't really know what he tested positive for.
You'd be the world's worst journalist! You'd end up never writing a single story. :D
Touche.
Well, I understand that sports reporters put it in print as a fact. It's their job to do so.
But we as anonymous wankers happen to be in the lucky position that we can question these things.

Cookson/UCI, in turn, happen to be one of the most unreliable sources on (anti)doping, so I'm surprised people took this as fact immediately after it was announced.

Not saying Cardoso didn't test positive for EPO. He might well have. But I can also imagine other scenarios.

Either way it's good PR for Cookson, and he's no doubt happy to see everybody take it as fact.
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Re: Re:

Merckx index said:
S2Sturges said:
just thought I'd throw this up here, it's the new improved EPO detection and analysis how to do sheet... Personally, I'm amazed with the amount of steps and their complexity, not to mention using a witch's brew of stuff like milk powder, mouse anti-human EPO antibody, and secondary goat anti-mouse IgG (H+L), conjugated with a horseradish peroxidase.... ?? Hard to think that a accurate and viable positive can be derived from all of this.. and so conveniently to a member of a major rival's team just before the world's biggest cycle race... I'm smelling set up...

http://www.dyeagnostics.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Application_Note_Improvements-for-EPO-detection_Schwenke_2015.pdf
No, this is standard procedure. Milk proteins are used to reduce non-specific binding, i.e., binding of the primary antibody to proteins other than the target, in this case, EPO. The secondary antibody is used to detect the primary antibody, and thus EPO. Horseradish peroxidase, very commonly used in this procedure, is attached to the secondary antibody. It catalyzes the conversion of certain substrates to a chemiluminescent product, that is, something that emits light or glows.

Thus in a nutshell, the EPO molecules are separated by molecular weight on gels, which they move through when an electric charge is put across the gels. The gels have pores of a certain size. The smaller the EPO molecule, the more easily it passes through these pores, and thus the further down the gel it travels in a given length of time. So the molecular weight, which is used to identify the type of EPO, is inversely proportional to the distance down the gel it’s found. The EPO molecules in the gel are located by chemiluminescence, after binding to the antibodies. You actually see colored bands on the gels, and by measuring the intensity of the color, one can quantify the amount of EPO present in the band.

Well, I have to thank you for taking the time to thoroughly explain the science behind the test, I'm that much more informed now.... Cheers
 
Aug 2, 2012
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portugal11 said:
Incredible is why sky riders aren't caught...

we have an 'idea' why the majority of the peloton are not caught...........but

no-one knows absolutely

as to cordosa? that's a myth busted..........the myth that no-one gets caught..........and

don't say team sky /brian arranged this to scupper berto

Mark L
 
Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
Valv.Piti said:
Not a difference maker. Felline and Mollema potentially are. Will you do me a favour and stop acting like Mollema is illoyal before its actually proven he is? He may just ride his heart out. Its tiring so hear that over and over again.
Cardoso is an excellent domestique. He would have been around the 20th strongest climber in the race, as he always is, he would put in the same level of performance every day, and as a career domestique with zero personal ambitions he's supremely loyal. Because he never, ever, rides for his own chances he is often underrated. He's not a "difference maker" in the sense that he's suddenly going to smash the race up and reduce the leader's group to six riders or something, but he's very, very useful.

Agreed on the Mollema part, by the way.
Exactly. Cardoso is a perfect domestique. But of course, it's no surprise to see Valv.Piti spin this to make it seem this won't harm Contador's chances at all. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Not a difference maker. Felline and Mollema potentially are. Will you do me a favour and stop acting like Mollema is illoyal before its actually proven he is? He may just ride his heart out. Its tiring so hear that over and over again.
Even if he is loyal, he has a Giro in his legs and has never ever had to work for someone. He just doesn't know how to pull on the front for ages, he can only hang on. We saw it in Catalunya, he did a pull for 1 minute and then dropped and finished a few places behind Contador.
And anyway, among Dutch fans it is known Mollema is quite arrogant, there was a big issue in the national team some years ago. And let's not forget Mollema hasn't been too friendly with Contador in the past.
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
Zinoviev Letter said:
Valv.Piti said:
Not a difference maker. Felline and Mollema potentially are. Will you do me a favour and stop acting like Mollema is illoyal before its actually proven he is? He may just ride his heart out. Its tiring so hear that over and over again.
Cardoso is an excellent domestique. He would have been around the 20th strongest climber in the race, as he always is, he would put in the same level of performance every day, and as a career domestique with zero personal ambitions he's supremely loyal. Because he never, ever, rides for his own chances he is often underrated. He's not a "difference maker" in the sense that he's suddenly going to smash the race up and reduce the leader's group to six riders or something, but he's very, very useful.

Agreed on the Mollema part, by the way.
Exactly. Cardoso is a perfect domestique. But of course, it's no surprise to see Valv.Piti spin this to make it seem this won't harm Contador's chances at all. :rolleyes:
As I said, he will be hanging on for dear life until he gets dropped and will therefore be very similar Zubeldia. Maybe a slight downgrade, but nothing more really. Pantano can smash it up a climb, Felline can as well on his good days (really hard accelerations early, like in Andalucia) and Mollema whose ceiling is much higher, therefore potentially much more useful.

By the way, Im not trying to spin anything. I have just not seen anything that would suggest to me Cardoso actually would be of great use compared to a Zubeldia. I could also make roll-eyes at you and say its typical LF to try to spin everyone not 110% loyal to Contador should be left out the team (thats what you basically have been saying about Mollema, I guess you are still have bad memories about Kreuziger and Majka?).
 
Re:

Anderis said:
If riders like Cardoso actually dope, that makes you think if it's even possible that most of the much better riders than him don't.
They only dope to achieve the level of the top guys, who are naturally gifted and don't need that hellish thing. :)
 
May 26, 2010
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Re:

Anderis said:
If riders like Cardoso actually dope, that makes you think if it's even possible that most of the much better riders than him don't.
Some riders are pushed into cycling from a very young age and families fund them for long years, whether they like it or even have the required talent to get to WT level. Hard to turn around to that and say at 17/18 sorry but the last 10 years you spent all the money and time on for me to be a pro is not for me!!!!!!

I dont much sympathy for dopers and cheats but what i do have it is towards the riders.

I have witnessed young boys out training with a parent or uncle when they should have been in school.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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He should be banned for cycing for life and give away all the money he earned in cycling the last 2 years.
Of course today the few cheaters (I mean world Tour, not the rest) play with an samall dosis, but in a clean cycling that small dosis could be important.
Portugal is not Sud America, but it is close, lot to change in cycling.
Nice to see today controls works. not a big surprised to be Cardoso, and I hope to see a 100 % clean Tour.
 
Aug 6, 2015
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Re:

Taxus4a said:
He should be banned for cycing for life and give away all the money he earned in cycling the last 2 years.
Of course today the few cheaters (I mean world Tour, not the rest) play with an samall dosis, but in a clean cycling that small dosis could be important.
Portugal is not Sud America, but it is close, lot to change in cycling.
Nice to see today controls works. not a big surprised to be Cardoso, and I hope to see a 100 % clean Tour.
Do you really beleive the anti doping system works? :confused: :confused:
 
Re:

del1962 said:
And for whom it is important what this clown says! His buddy Tom Danielson was caught twice and he's still defending him (something is apparently off with this case to him, although Danielson got 4 year ban), and he rides frequently with another proven doper Levi Leipheimer. Yet he somehow thinks he has the right to act as a anti-doping spoke person! And somehow Paco Mancebo (who by the way is almost 100% a doper, but he was never caught unlike 2 very close friends of Phil Gaimon) is some kind of a worst thing that happen to cycling! And on top of that he attacks his former teammate Andre Cardoso even before his B sample is confirmed, allegedly his defence is poor, cycling fans won't believe, blah, blah. I think he should really keep his mouth shut on the matters of doping.
 
Re: Re:

Ricco' said:
Anderis said:
If riders like Cardoso actually dope, that makes you think if it's even possible that most of the much better riders than him don't.
They only dope to achieve the level of the top guys, who are naturally gifted and don't need that hellish thing. :)
As I chuckle I know you meant that with sarcasm, as I ponder the likes of Lance, Ulrich, Basso, Pantani, Museeuw, just to name a few. :)
 
Re: Re:

on3m@n@rmy said:
Ricco' said:
Anderis said:
If riders like Cardoso actually dope, that makes you think if it's even possible that most of the much better riders than him don't.
They only dope to achieve the level of the top guys, who are naturally gifted and don't need that hellish thing. :)
As I chuckle I know you meant that with sarcasm, as I ponder the likes of Lance, Ulrich, Basso, Pantani, Museeuw, just to name a few. :)
It's the stock defence when low-rent participants get popped in any sport.

Highly prevalent in rugby where it's only amateurs and semi-pros taking steroids to try and compete, the pros are all clean as a whistle.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Re: Re:

portugal11 said:
Taxus4a said:
He should be banned for cycing for life and give away all the money he earned in cycling the last 2 years.
Of course today the few cheaters (I mean world Tour, not the rest) play with an samall dosis, but in a clean cycling that small dosis could be important.
Portugal is not Sud America, but it is close, lot to change in cycling.
Nice to see today controls works. not a big surprised to be Cardoso, and I hope to see a 100 % clean Tour.
Do you really beleive the anti doping system works? :confused: :confused:

Of course in WT. But there will be always people trying to cheat

Cardoso has showed a very high level some races...but I read here and people think that a normal rider can be Quintana just with a few EPO.

Cardoso has been always a suspicious rider and finally they got him. Happy about.

I dont think Contador dopes now, but probably he didnt mind if Cardoso did. That is the difference between him an some other riders who came from other era.
In some way you can think is fare...I dont mind if my team mates dopes becouse still they are weakers than my main rivals team mates...and yes, maybe lot of things are unfair in cycling..but those are the rules...and to dope is no allowed and has made lot of pain to this sport. People doping now deserves no mercy.
 

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