Any clinic members ever doped?

[malakassis]

Back on topic:

i doped with my brother. and many other overambitios/narcissists do.

off season: 6 weeks testosterone-enantat 500mg/week to provide muscle gain rather than fat while hard legworkout. high % of musclemass is useful to quickly burn fat for season.

in season: 4 weeks adractim (DHT-gel) cycle in may. and morning before races.straight on the scrutum,to hit most # of androgen-receptors. great to establish lean muscle mass and get rid of water retention. it cant convert to estrogen. huge impact on aggression and endurance. not longer than 4 weeks because it increases LDL and lowers HDL.

Mala, I'd like to explore the topic of testosterone use with you a bit. If you don't mind, and be as general or specific as you feel comfortable:

What region did you race? italy,austria,slovenija

What was your age at the time? early 20ies

What was your specialty? mountainous one day races

How did you procure your drugs? via internet

Edit: I'd like to get an idea of the timeframe to better understand the cultural implications as well.

i was just an ambitious amateur rider during my studies. i did never win a race. my brother was riding more (12-15k/year) and did win. also i was always a bit scared of androgens. i already have high hematocrite (ciao damiano!) and i didnt want to risk any cardiovaskular issues as androgens even increase red blood cells.

still sometimes today i use a bit of andractim-gel for tough days. but only like once/month.

Agree with DW.

What was the timeframe? 2005/06 until summer 2009

Can you describe the decision-making process and the forces that shape it?

we were racing in austria and slovenija and always amongst the very good riders. when we started racing in italy, this was different. for sure, italy is THE cycling-nation and the amount of active cyclists is huge (northern italy). but many people dropped us like sandbags even significantly older men (35-40 ys maybe). my brothers ego suffered from that, mine not that much. he started the doping then in 2005/06. in the 2006 maratona dles dolomites he beat me by almost 25mins. in clean 2005 it wasnt even 5! so i started myself. in theses doped years we always went to our doc who knew it and he did bloodworks. i stopped it when for me cycling became just a recreational thing wihout the ambition.
my hematocrite is always between 48,5 (when i force myself to drink 4 liters water) and 50.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you mind if I ask -- once you started, how much did you improve? That is a great Hct, although the headroom means EPO would not be as helpful for you, perhaps.

 

[King Of Molehill]

Raced as a Jr then Cat 2 in Canada in the mid 80's through to 93. I never did anything more than some extra caffeine in the morning. The biggest thing going at that time was amphetamine. I personally knew three guys who were using it regularly for races, even the local weekly club runs. They were addicted to it. They were called 'greenies' by Major League Baseball players. Easy to get, effective. I also knew a couple of guys who used codeine, not sure how effective they were and (after just looking it up) the IOC removed it off their banned list and allowed it for therapeutic use in 93.

 

[Irondan]

I think the info that Malakassis is interesting, but I want to remind anyone that wants any more detail into his doping that this is where the train ends.

Please do not ask for any more detailed doping information than is already here.

It's still just general information which is why I've let it stand.

Specific doping instruction is strictly prohibited on CN forums.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

I have. Extensively.
To be clear, I was a competitive bodybuilder, and was not cycling at the time. As there are no rules regarding PED use in the NPC or IFBB, what I was doing wasnt against any rules or regulations. I last took any PED about 14 years ago. I am 43 now.

The list includes all kinds of stuff, steroids, fat burners, beta agonists, thyroid, etc. I have a pretty good record of what I took, for how long, in what dosages, so if you have questions...ask away.
Everything that I took- with the exception of GHB- was purchased at legit pharmacies, so the dosages were accurate. From what I read, things are very different today, with underground labs supplying most of the PED's on the market.

Anadrol
Anavar
Clenbuterol (liquid and tab)
Cytomel
Deca Durabolin
Dianabol
Equipoise
Halotestin
Masteron
Primabolon
Test Cypionate
Test Enanthate
Test Propionate
Test Suspension
Sustanon
Synthroid
Winstrol (inj and tab)
Arimidex
Nolvadex
HCG

Ill come back to this list as I think of different prep cycles.

I would imagine that the dosages that I took would be significantly greater than anything that a cyclist would take. For example ************edited by mods************* At times, I was taking *******edited by mods**********.
At the time Gh, IGF-1, and other exotic stuff was too expensive for me, so I cant personally comment on how they work. I also never touched insulin, or some of the newer things like SARMS, etc..which are really amazing and largely undetectable by conventional testing methods.
What I can say is this: it is difficult to quantify and articulate just how good these drugs work. I can only say that while some people respond better than others to various compounds, the difference between using and not using is so vast, that it really seems like to different athletes entirely, even at lower dosages.

More later.

Edit- Sorry Irondan. didnt realize there were things that were not open for discussion.

 

[Irondan]

We will delete any specific doping methods/practice/timing/amounts/instructions, ect.

Doping discussion is encouraged, but teaching how to dope in this forum is not permitted.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re:

I will delete any specific doping methods/practice/timing/amounts/instructions, ect.

Doping discussion is encouraged, but teaching how to dope in this forum is not permitted.

Is there a reason why I cant respond to your PM, nor contact you? Just curious.

 

[Irondan]

Yes, it's because you have less than 10 comments saved to your profile. You only need a couple more so post some easy ones till you get to 10, i'll delete them later.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thanks .Froomestrong.

To be clear, when I asked malakassis how much he improved, I did not think I was asking for his doping protocols and it was a fair and useful question? It could, for example, shed light on the claim by JV that his high Hct meant he did not benefit much from doping (EPO specifically). Because in this context I have come to realise (again) that if you make the discussion about EPO and its lack of boost for a high Hct athlete, you are now forgetting / ignoring the incredible recuperative benefits from test, hgh, etc, which can be as powerful a boost in allowing you to train harder more often. JV, for example (as he has shared his doping data here) claims a very small boost, but fails to discuss any of the other things he was doing. Like hiding in plain sight.

I am guessing those other things were helping significantly. It's an educated guess.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re:

Yes, it's because you have less than 10 comments saved to your profile. You only need a couple more so post some easy ones till you get to 10, i'll delete them later.

Got it- thanks.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re:

Thanks .Froomestrong.

To be clear, when I asked malakassis how much he improved, I did not think I was asking for his doping protocols and it was a fair and useful question? It could, for example, shed light on the claim by JV that his high Hct meant he did not benefit much from doping (EPO specifically). Because in this context I have come to realise (again) that if you make the discussion about EPO and its lack of boost for a high Hct athlete, you are now forgetting / ignoring the incredible recuperative benefits from test, hgh, etc, which can be as powerful a boost in allowing you to train harder more often. JV, for example (as he has shared his doping data here) claims a very small boost, but fails to discuss any of the other things he was doing. Like hiding in plain sight.

I am guessing those other things were helping significantly. It's an educated guess.

While I fully agree that giving advice/protocols/practices would be imprudent, it seems a fine line.
I fully regret my decision to use PED's- even though it wasnt against the rules- and now am adamant about not taking anything on the WADA list.
My hope was that we could have a discussion treading that fine line, but it looks like the mods are not going to have it. Understandable, in fact.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was just curious of the improvement. We all know it helps, so asking is not going to reveal a new concept, just quantify the improvement.

I am sure people can easily find protocols on other forums, I know I have read more than a few when researching GW50516 and Aicar information.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re:

I was just curious of the improvement. We all know it helps, so asking is not going to reveal a new concept, just quantify the improvement.

I am sure people can easily find protocols on other forums, I know I have read more than a few when researching GW50516 and Aicar information.

As I said, the improvement is simply massive. You are basically a completely different athlete when you are on the gear. This is not an exaggeration.

A few examples- at 210lbs, six weeks precontest, eating a very carb and calorie restricted diet...

Seated dumbbell press with 110lbs dumbbells, for 12 reps. Clean, I could maybe manage 80lbs, for 8-10 reps.
Squats for 405 for 8-10 reps, 465 for 5, 315 for 20. Clean, I could manage 315 for 8-10.
Incline barbell bench press, 365 for 4, 315 for 8. Clean, 275 for 5.

The amazing thing was the recovery. I trained with a real ferocity. There were days that I could barely walk out of the gym after leg training. On gear, I could do the same thing again in 3 days. Clean, it would be 7-8 days before I could even consider it.
This had considerable psychological effects. It got to the point that I simply would not train clean. Ever. What started as a "cycle", became "I never come off" because the difference was so profound.
Once I came off for good, it was a few years before I even wanted to train again, at all.
I can imagine that oxygen vector doping would have similar effects for endurance athletes. Scary.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Now imagine if your pay went from $70k to $2M because of that dope. And not only did you perform better for your own gratification, but the press talked about you, the podium girls kissed you, people paid attention to you, people started following you on twitter, companies wanted to pay you to use their products, the team starts riding for you.

Yet some people would have us believe that in 2006 everyone called a doping truce and just stopped. It suddenly became uncool.

:-/

 

[malakassis]

Re:

Thanks .Froomestrong.

To be clear, when I asked malakassis how much he improved, I did not think I was asking for his doping protocols and it was a fair and useful question? It could, for example, shed light on the claim by JV that his high Hct meant he did not benefit much from doping (EPO specifically). Because in this context I have come to realise (again) that if you make the discussion about EPO and its lack of boost for a high Hct athlete, you are now forgetting / ignoring the incredible recuperative benefits from test, hgh, etc, which can be as powerful a boost in allowing you to train harder more often. JV, for example (as he has shared his doping data here) claims a very small boost, but fails to discuss any of the other things he was doing. Like hiding in plain sight.

I am guessing those other things were helping significantly. It's an educated guess.

the improvement was huge. i didnt measur watts. but we controlled the clibing skills in our "training camp" (really camping) in st.moritz. mortirolo from mazzo was reference. my clean times were 1h +-2. my best doped is 53. this was also due to less bodyfat caused by andractim. and more mental strenght. in the upper part its less steep and you should push on o bigger gear. but pre-dope i just kept the same gear - too exhausted.
the effect on long endurance races (my weakest point because i always lagged of long,flat spring/winter rides) like otztaler radmarathon was significant with 8 vs. 9hs.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That is huge, agreed. Thank you again.

 

[Avoriaz]

Re: Re:

Recent studies in South Africa have shown that school children are willing to take steroids for reasons of vanity and I think a similar trend has been shown in Australia and no doubt any other developed country when access to these things is available. If kids will take steroids to look good it's hardly a leap to think they might also do it to perform well in sport. And yes, people are that rational, it happens in all walks of life where people lie, cheat and do shitty things, even when legal, to further themselves, their careers and their livelihoods. Just look at the guy who bought the rights to pyrimethamine recently and whacked up the costs by 5000%.

This is becoming very true here in Australia. The pressure to "get huge" amongst guys in their lates teens/early 20's is pretty big and it doesn't help when there's girls around who are superficial enough to put up with, and even excuse, the associated behaviour that goes along with steroids. You go out in places like Kings Cross in Sydiney or Fortitude Valley in Brisbane and Friday/Saturday night is fight night. Brunswick Street Mall in Fortitude Valley has police vans waiting at each end from around 9pm on Saturdays and Sundays

It's crazy, go into any gym here in the spring and there's guys working hard to turn themselves into tanks just so they can take off their shirts at music festivals over the summer. None of them play any kind of sport, it's entirely for their own egos. Bizarre, narcissistic behaviour

It's called Bigorexia, and is common in the UK too. Quite funny to see the pumped up arms and chests, but often sparrow like legs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34307044/muscle-dysmorphia-one-in-10-men-in-gyms-believed-to-have-bigorexia

 

[arthurvandelay]

I got to dope...once. I had a terrible rash on my legs (itching, welts, etc.) from wearing a dodgy pair of tights that
had been sitting in the garage for too long and were quite musty from mold, etc.Anyways my doctor prescribed a
five day dose of prednisone.After a few days on this I went on the usual weekend MTB ride with the same group of guys that I always ride with. I am a good bike rider but nothing special. That day I felt like frickin' Superman. Everyone commented that I was crushing it and wanted me to slow down.There was a definite mental high associated with this new found power and stamina as well.

The experience gave me an inkling of what it might be like to do this on a regular basis. I sincerely believe that some competitors dope "just this once" to qualify for a championship, etc. but get such powerful sensations that it is literally addictive both from the highs and the sensation of beating ones rivals.

There appears to be a big issue here in the US with doping at the age group level for old farts like me (55) in my two sports of road racing and triathlon. Anecdotally I notice a lot of my peers coming out of nowhere one season and making quantum leaps in ability accompanied by a lot of irritability and anger....just like any other drug abuser I suppose !

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Digger noticed a similar jump in performance on prednisone as well.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I'd just like to thank those members who have shared their experiences.

 

[twisted pairs]

Raced road in the US for 20+ years. Never better than Cat 3. My rides/races start with a coffee. Sometimes a TUMS if the coffee is acidic (heartburn). Never noticed a benefit from the TUMS. Obvious benefit from the caffeine. Early on suffered from EIA and used Salbuterol before races. Didn't take long for me to discover that I could avoid EIA by doing deep breathing exercises prior to the race and I ditched the inhaler. Sal made me super jittery and I hated it. Haven't needed it in the past 10 years or so.

Around 5 years ago, I tried really, really hard to become "race thin." I'm a reasonably thin guy normally and have appropriate amounts of muscle, but always recognized that shedding those elusive 10 lbs would be a huge improvement to performance. Duh. Long story short, I couldn't do it with training load and constant food cravings. Tried clen for a couple of months after the season ended. Definitely worked, but I backed out and discontinued because it too made me feel spacey/loopy. Also wasn't going to commit to using it during the season although I recognized that benefits gained in the off season constitute doping in season. I think I truly justed wanted to see what it was like to ride lighter. It wasn't smart and in fact was selfish. Having said that, I'm not especially remorseful and no one starved because I took bread from them.

 

[malakassis]

Re:

I have. Extensively.
To be clear, I was a competitive bodybuilder, and was not cycling at the time. As there are no rules regarding PED use in the NPC or IFBB, what I was doing wasnt against any rules or regulations. I last took any PED about 14 years ago. I am 43 now.

The list includes all kinds of stuff, steroids, fat burners, beta agonists, thyroid, etc. I have a pretty good record of what I took, for how long, in what dosages, so if you have questions...ask away.
Everything that I took- with the exception of GHB- was purchased at legit pharmacies, so the dosages were accurate. From what I read, things are very different today, with underground labs supplying most of the PED's on the market.

Anadrol
Anavar
Clenbuterol (liquid and tab)
Cytomel
Deca Durabolin
Dianabol
Equipoise
Halotestin
Masteron
Primabolon
Test Cypionate
Test Enanthate
Test Propionate
Test Suspension
Sustanon
Synthroid
Winstrol (inj and tab)
Arimidex
Nolvadex
HCG

Ill come back to this list as I think of different prep cycles.

I would imagine that the dosages that I took would be significantly greater than anything that a cyclist would take. For example ************edited by mods************* At times, I was taking *******edited by mods**********.
At the time Gh, IGF-1, and other exotic stuff was too expensive for me, so I cant personally comment on how they work. I also never touched insulin, or some of the newer things like SARMS, etc..which are really amazing and largely undetectable by conventional testing methods.
What I can say is this: it is difficult to quantify and articulate just how good these drugs work. I can only say that while some people respond better than others to various compounds, the difference between using and not using is so vast, that it really seems like to different athletes entirely, even at lower dosages.

More later.

Edit- Sorry Irondan. didnt realize there were things that were not open for discussion.

this is a huge amount of roids. may i ask if your hormonal axis is still working properly? and how did you restart it? HCG & SERMs i would guess?

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Well, its been almost 15 years since I last used, so its all good now. Its remarkable what a human body is capable of in terms of repairing itself. I should also say that I may just have good genetics to allow for this repair.

As you suggest, I did use all of the available PCT options. Did they work? I dont know, to be honest. I wasnt having blood work done at the time to determine a before/after.

Funny thing is that I didnt really see my usage as very heavy. I trained with guys who were taking 2x and 3x the amounts I was taking, and they were NEVER coming off, ever. I also used mostly 2-3 compounds at a time, so it wasnt like I was taking 10 different roids at once. Regardless, it was reckless and stupid to do any of it. I wish I could have been smart enough to never have done it, but Im not that bright...

 

[proffate]

Re:

Tried clen for a couple of months

How did clen work compared to dieting? Did it suppress your food cravings? Presumably you still have to eat less for clen to work.

I've often wondered about the genetics of super skinny riders. Sure some dope to get there, but some probably just have a different response to dieting (leptin and all that) or their bodies go off the catabolic cliff at a different bf%. How does clen play into this dynamic?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Tried clen for a couple of months

I've often wondered about the genetics of super skinny riders. Sure some dope to get there, but some probably just have a different response to dieting (leptin and all that) or their bodies go off the catabolic cliff at a different bf%. How does clen play into this dynamic?

An unnoticed piece of (clean) dieting has to do with periodization, both on big, big scales, and shorter. Genetics of course matter, just like the genes that got them to the starting line, but years of manipulating the metabolic systems stack up, just like training. Max fat oxidation, for example, can be trained. RMR can be manipulated too. Adding/avoiding resistance training changes the hormonal profile and the way those hormones effect the body's processing of the next meal. I think there are other examples I can't remember right now...

Thanks to those who have shared so far. To what extent did you figure things out for yourself, or follow a doctor's/friend's/coach's program? How much individualization went into your experience? (If there is a way to answer without explaining what you did specifically)