Any clinic members ever doped?

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

That was lucky.

Remember all those young Dutch riders dying of heart failure in the early 90's?

That may not actually have happened. According to a thread here from merckx index.

I've not read that thread. If you can find it, could you link to it, please?

The deaths certainly happened, and as far as I can recall they were attributed to inexplicable heart failure during sleep. Very unusual for such a pattern of deaths in healthy young athletes, in one sport, in one small country (well, two if you count Belgium) The speculation, by some pretty eminent haematologists, is that epo may have had a hand in this because it is known to increase the risk of thromboembolic complications, especially when combined with dehydration after exercise. I've yet to see any informed opinion that refutes the possibility of these deaths being attributable to epo use, but then I haven't really looked hard for it either. It is quite a long time ago now.

EDIT: Ah! 'Merckx index'. Sorry, I thought the poster was called Merckx, and you were telling me to 'index' Found the poster and the thread now, thanks!

 

[Digger]

didn't dope obviously but took prednisone this year and anyone who says, like froome did, that he didn't get a gain from it, is taking BS...it's brilliant I loved it and almost wished my chest infection didn't clear....train longer, less fatigue, mental lift, more power and clears the lungs - like the monty python sketch 'but other than all that what have the romans ever done for us.'
I

 

[wendybnt]

Better living through chemistry

Yes, I can second what Digger says. I had a few weeks of it some years back during my triathlon era. Let's just say it helped more than just a bit. The physical also boosted the mental. It was great.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Bah, Dr. Feelgood can have all his drugs back...

I'd rather have my shitty lungs and absolute no performance back than having to experiment with all this again.



(I have to say I have felt a bit tempted to use the "Epipen" [adrenaline], but then they'd have to monitor me in the ER for hours to see how I'd come down from it, so I just thought better not.)

 

[Bolder]

When I raced, I had my own "program": eggs/toast for breakfast, small cup of coffee. drive to race, drinking water all the way. Get to course, set up, use facilities. Then, just before race, double espresso and 2-3 ibuprofen. So probably 300 mg of caffeine and 400 mg of ibuprofen.

So yeah, rudimentary doping, totally legal of course.

There's no question (pats self on back) in my mind that I wouldn't have used anything illegal. Mostly cause I was scared of the side affects. There were a few over the counter supplements that I tried that seemed to have a positive effect but I didn't really feel the cost was worth it -- or the effort of sticking to a post-/pre workout routine.

 

[blackcat]

So yeah, rudimentary doping, totally legal of course.

There's no question (pats self on back) in my mind that I wouldn't have used anything illegal. Mostly cause I was scared of the side affects. There were a few over the counter supplements that I tried that seemed to have a positive effect but I didn't really feel the cost was worth it -- or the effort of sticking to a post-/pre workout routine.

see this is the question innit.

"totally legal"

i wont outright contest this.

but two things i will raise:
i) whose rules?
ii) does one justify, it is totally natural?

also, what is the objective?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

didn't dope obviously but took prednisone this year and anyone who says, like froome did, that he didn't get a gain from it, is taking BS...it's brilliant I loved it and almost wished my chest infection didn't clear....train longer, less fatigue, mental lift, more power and clears the lungs - like the monty python sketch 'but other than all that what have the romans ever done for us.'
I

also, I raise the question to you Digger, you are so anti-doping and anti PEDs, you admit you received a performance benefit from the cortisone like drug, did you choose to sit out of competition when you knew you were receiving a boost?

and if you did not sit out, why did you not sit out?

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I've not read that thread. If you can find it, could you link to it, please?

The deaths certainly happened, and as far as I can recall they were attributed to inexplicable heart failure during sleep. Very unusual for such a pattern of deaths in healthy young athletes, in one sport, in one small country (well, two if you count Belgium) The speculation, by some pretty eminent haematologists, is that epo may have had a hand in this because it is known to increase the risk of thromboembolic complications, especially when combined with dehydration after exercise. I've yet to see any informed opinion that refutes the possibility of these deaths being attributable to epo use, but then I haven't really looked hard for it either. It is quite a long time ago now.

EDIT: Ah! 'Merckx index'. Sorry, I thought the poster was called Merckx, and you were telling me to 'index' Found the poster and the thread now, thanks!

oh, you found this. good, so i dont have to try a dozen different searches. I just read the EDIT: as i am posting this redundant reply

 

[wendybnt]

When I raced, I had my own "program": eggs/toast for breakfast, small cup of coffee. drive to race, drinking water all the way. Get to course, set up, use facilities. Then, just before race, double espresso and 2-3 ibuprofen. So probably 300 mg of caffeine and 400 mg of ibuprofen.

So yeah, rudimentary doping, totally legal of course.

There's no question (pats self on back) in my mind that I wouldn't have used anything illegal. Mostly cause I was scared of the side affects. There were a few over the counter supplements that I tried that seemed to have a positive effect but I didn't really feel the cost was worth it -- or the effort of sticking to a post-/pre workout routine.

...and if you depended on it for your income? To keep a roof over the heads of your wife and children and food in their mouths?

I can't say I wouldn't, to be honest.

 

[blackcat]

i cant say i wouldnt. I dont think i would, but then I have not been placed in such a situation. tho I think Wendy's hypothetical may be a little "hypothetical",

 

[carton]

inhaler for ski racing/ road races, but I had sports induced asthma - but that's kind of a bulls*** diagnosis for the most part.

I could tell the difference between performances especially when it was really really cold.

Exercise induced asthma is a real thing. It's also an overused diagnosis, no question. But I had asthma as a kid and cold rainy weather max efforts will yield me a cough. It's usually a light reaction that goes away on its own (I hate using an inhaler) but every once in a while (maybe twice a year) I get a real fit. It's never really felt as absolutely out-of-breath suffocating as they did when I was a kid but they're still really rough.

There's nothing to criticise - we all choose our own paths and make choices. I chose to take roids and although I look back on it as a silly thing it took me down a path I doubt I would never have trodden without. I certainly wouldn't have had the conquests either

OP, I'm sorry but however much you feel the decision contributed to your personal growth I cannot agree with you if you cannot admit that it was the wrong decision. Cheating is cheating and it is wrong. PEDs can have dramatic effects not only on yourself but on others, not only via the unwarranted disappointment of clean athletes you beat and the bad example you set for younger kids and the fact that you're could be purchasing drugs from smugglers and financing their operations. You were both a victim and a contributor to an environment where dangerous illegal supra-medical experimentation is being done which can have dangerous and even deadly effects on all participants. And in the case of steroids in particular, there's an additional risk you're taking on behalf of others.

That was the day I told myself I was gonna use PEDs. I felt like nature had been unfair to me. Yes, I couldn't accept my body boundaries. And yes, I wanted to be better than all of them who did nothing the whole summer, even if it was a stupid 8th division game.

I have very mediocre hand-eye coordination. While you were working extra hard on your fitness, I stayed after every practice to work on my shooting and my dribbling. And I would go down to a basketball hoop in my neighborhood on days where we didn't have practice and just drill myself, trying to overcompensate lack of any natural talent with sheer repetition. And I was a three year varsity player in grade school and two year starter because of my fitness (likely muscle efficiency and endurance more than sheer engine, which as a cyclist I've found isn't particularly good), my work ethic (coaches love that) and because I could guard anyone from 5'10" to 6-8". Specially at the end of games.

It's a continuum but if we compare ourselves to the top .01% of athletes, nature will have likely "cheated" at least 99% of us.

Then, the day after, I thought about it again and let it go, I didn't need to be the best, I just wanted to have fun and be healthy.

That's the most important bit.

 

[ray j willings]

This whole thread

 

[HelmutRoole]

When I raced, I had my own "program": eggs/toast for breakfast, small cup of coffee. drive to race, drinking water all the way. Get to course, set up, use facilities. Then, just before race, double espresso and 2-3 ibuprofen. So probably 300 mg of caffeine and 400 mg of ibuprofen.

So yeah, rudimentary doping, totally legal of course.

There's no question (pats self on back) in my mind that I wouldn't have used anything illegal. Mostly cause I was scared of the side affects. There were a few over the counter supplements that I tried that seemed to have a positive effect but I didn't really feel the cost was worth it -- or the effort of sticking to a post-/pre workout routine.

...and if you depended on it for your income? To keep a roof over the heads of your wife and children and food in their mouths?

I can't say I wouldn't, to be honest.

So your question is, would I take peds to secure a hefty six-figure salary and a life on the playground?

Come on.

Of course.

There's really only two answers: yes and I don't know.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So your question is, would I take peds to secure a hefty six-figure salary and a life on the playground?

Come on.

Of course.

There's really only two answers: yes and I don't know.

I don't think I would, to be honest, but if I was going to, it's not the money that would appeal to me. Perhaps because I am older, but the travel, and being (hopefully, not going to try to get on JV's team!!) looked after as an athlete, and basically riding my fricken bike all over the world for a job.

I mean.

Seriously.

Have you ever sat in an office on a Monday morning surrounded by people coughing and spluttering unhealthy germs on you, phones ringing, computers playing up, with a perfect blue sky outside a distant window, having spent the entire weekend inside because it was raining?

Get me the fck out of here.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And there's a lot of riders riding in the pro peloton for a lot less than 6 figures.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re:

And there's a lot of riders riding in the pro peloton for a lot less than 6 figures.

According to the Union Cycliste Internationale, the average salary for a Continental pro in 2009 was about $81,000 USD. The average salary for a Pro Tour cyclist that year was $185,000 USD.

And yes, riding your bicycle... that's the playground. People who describe bicycle racing as a job, I have to think they've never had one. That, or they're romanticizing the notion of being a pro athlete.

I do appreciate that you qualified your statement: "I don't think I would..."

I didn't use peds as an amateur because the guy offering them to me was someone I could always beat. But, had I known the power of peds administered competently I would've been all over it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

And there's a lot of riders riding in the pro peloton for a lot less than 6 figures.

According to the Union Cycliste Internationale, the average salary for a Continental pro in 2009 was about $81,000 USD. The average salary for a Pro Tour cyclist that year was $185,000 USD.

And yes, riding your bicycle... that's the playground. People who describe bicycle racing as a job, I have to think they've never had one. That, or they're romanticizing the notion of being a pro athlete.

I do appreciate that you qualified your statement: "I don't think I would..."

I didn't use peds as an amateur because the guy offering them to me was someone I could always beat. But, had I known the power of peds administered competently I would've been all over it.

Average means sweet FA.

Given most teams have multi-million dollar contracted riders, the median would be a better figure to use, IMO.

I read a story where some riders are riding free. They get paid but have to pay for flights, etc themselves.

Granted this is 5 years before your 2009 example, but I have no reason to believe it's any different in terms of spread now.

20% of the riders on any team (30) are going to be making 80% of the money on that team.
6 riders get 80%
24 riders get 20%

If we look at the USPS model, 23 riders --> 20% = top 4 salaries:

top 20% = 4 riders: ~@5089581
total salary: 6424000
5089581/6424000 = 79%

I'm pretty darn confident this will still be the case today.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

So your question is, would I take peds to secure a hefty six-figure salary and a life on the playground?

Come on.

Of course.

There's really only two answers: yes and I don't know.

I get the urge to characterize doping as the fabric of sport culture, but come on. It is a choice, and it is possible for a person to make that choice ahead of time. And it is possible to act on your own moral fiber when making that choice.

If you're going for the "you can't know how you will react in the actual moment" angle, that's just silly. You can. You might as well question every time you pick up a cutting knife, wondering if you can trust yourself to not stab the person next to you.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

And there's a lot of riders riding in the pro peloton for a lot less than 6 figures.

According to the Union Cycliste Internationale, the average salary for a Continental pro in 2009 was about $81,000 USD. The average salary for a Pro Tour cyclist that year was $185,000 USD.

And yes, riding your bicycle... that's the playground. People who describe bicycle racing as a job, I have to think they've never had one. That, or they're romanticizing the notion of being a pro athlete.

I do appreciate that you qualified your statement: "I don't think I would..."

I didn't use peds as an amateur because the guy offering them to me was someone I could always beat. But, had I known the power of peds administered competently I would've been all over it.

Can you post the link where you got this information?

This link breaks down salary structure completely different.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2010/11/how-much-do-pro-cyclists-make/

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So your question is, would I take peds to secure a hefty six-figure salary and a life on the playground?

Come on.

Of course.

There's really only two answers: yes and I don't know.

I get the urge to characterize doping as the fabric of sport culture, but come on. It is a choice, and it is possible for a person to make that choice ahead of time. And it is possible to act on your own moral fiber when making that choice.

If you're going for the "you can't know how you will react in the actual moment" angle, that's just silly. You can. You might as well question every time you pick up a cutting knife, wondering if you can trust yourself to not stab the person next to you.

Yes, there's no way I would take drugs to be a pro anything.

Some people can say that with confidence, others can't. That's fine. Cheating is not for me.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Just eyeballing your chart, looks like the median salary for a USPS rider in 2004 is 20k shy of six figures? If so, that's still good money.

I don't doubt there are guys racing for peanuts, especially in North America. I've met plenty of them. But I have to think guys racing on the pro tour are making pretty decent money, or at least that's what I'm basing my hypothetical on. I'd bet most of the guys racing the Tour are in the higher pay grades.

Anyway, the guys I was racing with in the 80s, given that set of influences, I'm confident that under the right circumstances we would've all used. The guy offering, we called him the doctor because he carried with him a black doctor's bag filled with pills, syringes and vials. In retrospect it was likely testosterone, steroids and amphetamines. Not the game changer EPO was, but at the right dosages, effective. I know this now but at the time, the doctor was consistently out of shape and slow so we paid him no mind.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

And there's a lot of riders riding in the pro peloton for a lot less than 6 figures.

According to the Union Cycliste Internationale, the average salary for a Continental pro in 2009 was about $81,000 USD. The average salary for a Pro Tour cyclist that year was $185,000 USD.

And yes, riding your bicycle... that's the playground. People who describe bicycle racing as a job, I have to think they've never had one. That, or they're romanticizing the notion of being a pro athlete.

I do appreciate that you qualified your statement: "I don't think I would..."

I didn't use peds as an amateur because the guy offering them to me was someone I could always beat. But, had I known the power of peds administered competently I would've been all over it.

Can you post the link where you got this information?

This link breaks down salary structure completely different.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2010/11/how-much-do-pro-cyclists-make/

http://www.uci.ch/news/article/report-reveals-men-professional-cycling-healthy-position/

 

[HelmutRoole]

So your question is, would I take peds to secure a hefty six-figure salary and a life on the playground?

Come on.

Of course.

There's really only two answers: yes and I don't know.

I get the urge to characterize doping as the fabric of sport culture, but come on. It is a choice, and it is possible for a person to make that choice ahead of time. And it is possible to act on your own moral fiber when making that choice.

If you're going for the "you can't know how you will react in the actual moment" angle, that's just silly. You can. You might as well question every time you pick up a cutting knife, wondering if you can trust yourself to not stab the person next to you.

You would never make it as a pro tour cyclist.

Reference stabbing people, you're over simplifying. Take a look at the footage from the Milgram Experiment.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there aren't clean riders at the Pro Tour level. There are. But only a handful last more than a season. Gaimon is a likely example of a guy who raced PT clean. If so, he's a good example of what happens to clean riders at that level. He talked the talk but when he walked the walk, they showed him door.

Look, this isn't akin to cheating on a spelling test or if it is it's a distant cousin. In a spelling test, the proctor will give you an F for cheating. Not so with the UCI. So put yourself in a room full of students cheating on a test and the proctor knows it, is okay with it, actually condones it and did it himself as a student. If you're going to be one of the one or two students not willing to cheat, you have my respect.

But talk is cheap.

 

[oldcrank]

So your question is, would I take peds to secure a hefty six-figure salary and a life on the playground?

Come on.

Of course.

There's really only two answers: yes and I don't know.

I get the urge to characterize doping as the fabric of sport culture, but come on. It is a choice, and it is possible for a person to make that choice ahead of time. And it is possible to act on your own moral fiber when making that choice.

If you're going for the "you can't know how you will react in the actual moment" angle, that's just silly. You can. You might as well question every time you pick up a cutting knife, wondering if you can trust yourself to not stab the person next to you.

Yes, there's no way I would take drugs to be a pro anything.

Some people can say that with confidence, others can't. That's fine. Cheating is not for me.

You have told us that you have a British passport, my friend,
so obviously you would not be a cheater/doper. That goes
without saying.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You have told us that you have a British passport, my friend,
so obviously you would not be a cheater/doper. That goes
without saying.

That's the first time I've laughed here in a long time.