Anyone ever seen Contador's blood values?

[Hugh Januss]

while I can agree with some of what you said, you also have to take into account that the guys who were caught are NOW the ones spilling the beans. They sure weren't doing it when THEY were profiting from it.....

THAT.....................is where the rub is with me..................


it's like if I can't **** in my sandbox.............. you can't either attitude is the problem

No it's not the problem, it is the beginning of the solution. No organized crime ring has ever been busted without somebody turning 'states evidence'.

 

[Anonymous]

in the name of true transparency, lance should call in some favors with radioshack, mount a webcam on his helmet, and broadcast it online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i'm sure the good people at astana could manage something similar. what happens on commercial breaks is anyone's business.

Well, the injections would be easy to do during a Michelob Ultra commercial, but we know from Floyd and Lance's shower break that it takes about 20 minutes to transfuse, so we would also need an FRS infomercial occasionally.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

No it's not the problem, it is the beginning of the solution. No organized crime ring has ever been busted without somebody turning 'states evidence'.

I'm sorry you missed the part of the "loser who got caught" now turns on everyone because HE CANNOT BENEFIT for the same cheating he employed so well before to earn a living..............


you don't see the irony in that?

if that "clown" had any integrity he would have come forward before getting caught...........NOT AFTER............

 

[slowoldman]

in the name of true transparency, lance should call in some favors with radioshack, mount a webcam on his helmet, and broadcast it online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. i'm sure the good people at astana could manage something similar. what happens on commercial breaks is anyone's business.

So would that be called (P)EdTV? (I am sure Matthew Mcconaughey would reprise his role)

 

[Parrot23]

LOL, okay, let's keep it to Bertie: what are the choices he faces?

Is it like politicians and public vs. private adultery. The former is much more "fun" for the "audience" (the Oprah dimension), the latter more discreet for the voters (the Euro version)?

Are there "victims" only with the former, and not the latter?

 

[Magnus]

a 100% agreed. Numbers mean nothing nowadays since virtually anything can be fixed/regulated/controlled to appear normal.
AC is smart like his compatriot Indurain, whose attitude towards those numbers/values was very reserved & kept them private as much as possible, to avoid any possible controversy.

But hct is hct right? And significant for performance? Or can you have one hct and have the test show another?

 

[Anonymous]

while I can agree with some of what you said, you also have to take into account that the guys who were caught are NOW the ones spilling the beans. They sure weren't doing it when THEY were profiting from it.....

THAT.....................is where the rub is with me..................


it's like if I can't **** in my sandbox.............. you can't either attitude is the problem

I agree with Hugh, this is the beginning in many ways. You also have to look at the fact that some who dope and get caught return straight back at the top. Some are not allowed this, and the underlying issue with those who are still shunned would naturally create an animosity in anyone who went through that. I put myself in that position and being faced with not being able to ride at the top level regardless of whether or not I spill the beans, I say "f*ck it" and spill the beans. If you screw me over and think I will take it with a smile on my face, you misunderstand human interaction.

 

[ilillillli]

if that "clown" had any integrity he would have come forward before getting caught...........NOT AFTER............

I think that's the only thing (maybe) that can really help. There's got to be someone still achieving modest-to-good results in the peloton that comes forward and fesses up and exposes the systematic doping that's going on. They'd be ending their career, but they'd be doing a service to the sport.

Maybe. After thoughtforfood's post I realize I might not even be that against doping itself. Just intense hypocrisy. In either case, someone currently in the peloton needs to fess up and save it. Vandevelde? Someone...

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry you missed the part of the "loser who got caught" now turns on everyone because HE CANNOT BENEFIT for the same cheating he employed so well before to earn a living..............


you don't see the irony in that?

if that "clown" had any integrity he would have come forward before getting caught...........NOT AFTER............

But that is never how it works. You expect Contador or Lance or anyone with something to lose to just come spill the beans? Show me the example of that in any venue. People don't come forward with their dishonesty until the gig is up. There are rare exceptions, but 99% of the time it does not break down that way. Do you go around admitting your dishonest behavior prior to being caught for that behavior? I think we all try to do that some, but I am far from perfect in that area. The big difference here is that my whole livelihood is not contingent upon a Faustian bargain, but if it were, I have to say that if I chose badly, I wouldn't then turn around and tell everyone about it before I got busted. People are not like that.

Contador isn't trying to play that game. He rides and doesn't try to prove one way or the other. He just does what he does, and rides. That is what Floyd did...until he felt cheated by a system of cheats. Honor among thieves is myth.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that's the only thing (maybe) that can really help. There's got to be someone still achieving modest-to-good results in the peloton that comes forward and fesses up and exposes the systematic doping that's going on. They'd be ending their career, but they'd be doing a service to the sport.

Maybe. After thoughtforfood's post I realize I might not even be that against doping itself. Just intense hypocrisy. In either case, someone currently in the peloton needs to fess up and save it. Vandevelde? Someone...

That would be great to see, and maybe we are at a point where that can happen. I would like to see the UCI institute an amnesty policy, but I don't think that will happen because it would destroy McQuaid's "cycling is clean" narrative.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I'm sorry you missed the part of the "loser who got caught" now turns on everyone because HE CANNOT BENEFIT for the same cheating he employed so well before to earn a living..............


you don't see the irony in that?

if that "clown" had any integrity he would have come forward before getting caught...........NOT AFTER............

How do they have any less integrity than the ones who are still cheating and lying. [edited by mod]

 

[Parrot23]

I see another poster on another thread (I think a Lance supporter) has posted an Ann Gripper quote, which goes against published results:

"The problem with releasing results is that every single amateur arm-chair haematologist and physiologist starts getting involved and making comments. ...it kind of opens them up for unfair attacks from all these armchair people who sit around and think they know how to interpret these results." - Ann Gripper

 

[Deagol]

Contador has a smarter PR strategy IMO. He appears to keep a low profile and flies under the radar off the bike. Maybe his image is different in Europe, or more particularly Spain? I am not sure. He did handle last year’s situation much more maturely than LA. Not publishing his numbers is probably pretty smart, he seems to be more a stone-waller rather than an attacker (on the PR front, that is). All I can say is Pat’s ringing endorsement of AC and that the TDF would be clean for several years made me very uncomfortable with the whole thing.

 

[goober]

I see another poster on another thread (I think a Lance supporter) has posted an Ann Gripper quote, which goes against published results:

"The problem with releasing results is that every single amateur arm-chair haematologist and physiologist starts getting involved and making comments. ...it kind of opens them up for unfair attacks from all these armchair people who sit around and think they know how to interpret these results." - Ann Gripper

"Basso shows a 10% decrease in the last week while Armstrong shows a 10% increase. Rest day blood bags do wonders for old dudes." says Race Radio MD. Prepare myself for the fanboy, groupie jargon.

 

[Race Radio]

"Basso shows a 10% decrease in the last week while Armstrong shows a 10% increase. Rest day blood bags do wonders for old dudes." says Race Radio MD. Prepare myself for the fanboy, groupie jargon.

It does not take an advanced math degree to come up with those calculations.

Of course it is far from armchair commentators, multiple experts in the field have questioned them. Even the head of the UCI, Pat McQuaid, has said the natural response to a three week GT is a decrease in Hct.

Armstrong has not even attempted to explain the questionable numbers, he knows that just attacking anyone that questions the myth is good enough for his groupies.

 

[wattage]

Is there a drug that can hide your actual hematocrit? I mean if a rider has way over 50% HCT but come drug test time lower that well belowe 50% limit? Is it still possible to ride at 60% like Riis and Pantani?

 

[ilillillli]

Is there a drug that can hide your actual hematocrit? I mean if a rider has way over 50% HCT but come drug test time lower that well belowe 50% limit? Is it still possible to ride at 60% like Riis and Pantani?

this seems completely impossible to me, given that hematocrit is the percentage of blood volume that is RBCs. it's sort of a physical reality; either those cells are there or they're not. i'm really not sure how you would/could hide that beyond massive insanely massive hydration. which i suppose is possible, but isn't exactly a drug.

 

[goober]

It does not take an advanced math degree to come up with those calculations.

Of course it is far from armchair commentators, multiple experts in the field have questioned them. Even the head of the UCI, Pat McQuaid, has said the natural response to a three week GT is a decrease in Hct.

Armstrong has not even attempted to explain the questionable numbers, he knows that just attacking anyone that questions the myth is good enough for his groupies.

I did not question division of simple numbers - I am sure you can do that. You added "Rest day blood bags do wonders for old dudes." which based on context indicates you are interpreting the results Dr Radio.

Now we have Dr. McQuaid? Yes 'experts' have questioned them and said they 'possibly' indicate doping while other have indicated the values 'actually' indicate he is clean.

And you want Armstrong to become Dr. Armstrong and explain blood values?

I know you have read it many times:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

 

[BroDeal]

this seems completely impossible to me, given that hematocrit is the percentage of blood volume that is RBCs. it's sort of a physical reality; either those cells are there or they're not. i'm really not sure how you would/could hide that beyond massive insanely massive hydration. which i suppose is possible, but isn't exactly a drug.

Infusing half a liter of saline would drop hematocrit by about 10%, or 50 -> 45.5 assuming a starting blood volume of five liters. It probably helps to get a tip-off before the test.

 

[doxter]

can i ask what happens in the situation where LA delayed taking his test by showering and then potentially diluting his levels - would this impact his capabilities the next day and if not is it right to assume that the rider would lift the levels dramatically to ensure his performance was back to 'normal' . how would that be done ?

would any of this be subsequently readable by testers ?

 

[ilillillli]

Infusing half a liter of saline would drop hematocrit by about 10%, or 50 -> 45.5 assuming a starting blood volume of five liters. It probably helps to get a tip-off before the test.

saline infusion... "insanely massive hydration"... to-may-to, to-mah-to. you and your "science"

in any case, i guess the only way to lower your RBC-to-volume ratio while still maintaining a ridiculously high number of RBCs is to increase the volume. pump in the water.

does anyone know: how much volume can the circulatory system tolerate? what happens if it gets too high?

 

[ilillillli]

can i ask what happens in the situation where LA delayed taking his test by showering and then potentially diluting his levels - would this impact his capabilities the next day and if not is it right to assume that the rider would lift the levels dramatically to ensure his performance was back to 'normal' . how would that be done ?

would any of this be subsequently readable by testers ?

a lower hematocrit does only means a lower RBC/volume ratio... NOT a lower number of RBCs. if you just dilute your blood with saline (as is extremely possible in this scenario) you still maintain the same number of RBCs and hence the same oxygen carrying capacity as before you watered yourself down.

i think.

 

[BroDeal]

Here is a question. If you infuse half a liter of saline, how long does it take for the body bring the blood volume down to what it was previously?

 

[Squares]

can i ask what happens in the situation where LA delayed taking his test by showering and then potentially diluting his levels - would this impact his capabilities the next day and if not is it right to assume that the rider would lift the levels dramatically to ensure his performance was back to 'normal' . how would that be done ?

would any of this be subsequently readable by testers ?

I am under the impression that half of the "surprise" test only take urine samples (that are tested for T/E ratio, and EPO, etc...) and some take both blood and urine.

Does anyone know for sure that blood was taken on the days of the delays for a shower?

The shower could also be used as time to insert a catheter and supply a bladder full of warm clean urine.

But then again, most people seem to think it was blood that was taken on that day. Anyone know for sure.

Also, the other thing that is interesting is that in topping off the blood, a doper also has to make sure that the retic count matches or it triggers suspicion in the off score. Anyone know if the half life of retics and mature red blood cells are the same at 4C?

 

[Hillavoider]

i would luv to have seen contadors blood levels in the 2007 tour when he and chicken were spinting up mountains together without even breathing hard. that tour was the funniest i have ever seen. an even bigger joke then all the others.