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Are other sports as dirty as cycling?

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Thoughtforfood said:
I am not sure why I differ in my view. I guess it is hypocrisy, and I am ok with that. I think the difference may be that I believe the drugs make NFL competition better where as in cycling I think it makes the racing less interesting.

Let me ask you this. Let's just say that eliminating race radio makes the sport of cycling much more exciting. We see more wild time shifts, amazing breakaways, etc.

Would you then be more likely to ignore the doping issue in cycling, the way you do in the NFL?
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
You haven't tried racing as an XC skier, have you? Just watch the first 1:40 of this link and you'll understand why I say this.

i defer to you on that. being an american i'm not exposed to it much.

i take it you are saying the events are harder over a longer period of time that the grand tours.

i see they've had their "troubles" too.
 
Snake8 said:
Centric, I know we like to bang heads here, but I would argue that's a pretty naive view of cycling in the context of other sports and is part of why you get so upset at some of my posts. You put these guys on a pedestal that frankly doesn't exist and never has. The image of purity is a mirage my friend.

Titan, I was not saying cycling is more or less dirty. I was asking what others think, because it seems to me that at least part of cycling's problem is just as much with the culture of doping and the culture of being obsessed with doping. This forum is essentially a doping forum with an occasional cycling discussion. If other sports are just as dirty, why if cycling tests the most, catches the most, why is it perceived to be dirtier?

I actually agree with you. I can assure you that I certainly don't put pro riders on any sort of pedestal. I am one cynical ******* and I think that should be obvious from my posts.

As to the image of purity - I can tell you from personal experience and that of many of my friends as long-time amateur bike racers that cycling can most certainly can be pure and good for the body, mind and soul. The problem is that at the pro level this experience and image has been corrupted. Yes it sucks, but it is what is and I still watch and follow the sport because I love it anyway.
 
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BikeCentric said:
I actually agree with you. I can assure you that I certainly don't put pro riders on any sort of pedestal. I am one cynical ******* and I think that should be obvious from my posts.

As to the image of purity - I can tell you from personal experience and that of many of my friends as long-time amateur bike racers that cycling can most certainly can be pure and good for the body, mind and soul. The problem is that at the pro level this experience and image has been corrupted. Yes it sucks, but it is what is and I still watch and follow the sport because I love it anyway.

I knew we'd find something to agree on eventually. I find purity in cycling but that is my time on the bike. And i can attest that it is good for the mind because i did not ride today yet and I am grumpy and p.o'd for no good reason other than I have not had my time on the bike today.

And Alpe, you continue to be the voice of reason here when it comes to dopetalk afaiac. Thanks.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
I just don't think that is true. They get away with it just as much now. The NFL doping policy is a sham made so by the player's union.

I know many people's opinion of doping in cycling is "let the do whatever they want, I just want to watch a good race." (not saying that is your opinion jack). In the NFL, I honestly believe that if you polled hardcore fans of the NFL, you would find that most couldn't care less what they are on. They just want to see a good game with big hits and speed.

In both cases I understand the reasons for this, and really don't judge them too harshly. Sometimes I think that camp may be right. In fact, while I deplore drug usage in cycling; I won't give up my seats for the Panthers regardless of whether they dope or not. I am not sure why I differ in my view. I guess it is hypocrisy, and I am ok with that. I think the difference may be that I believe the drugs make NFL competition better where as in cycling I think it makes the racing less interesting.

My mother in law was asking me why I don't like Armstrong, and the reality is that it is not because of his doping. It is because of his actions towards others when challenged. He is also prime example of how racing is made less interesting when you can afford to get the best juice given by a practitioner who has taken the time to figure out the most effective regimen. He can materially afford to beat his fellow competitors. Looking at what domistiques are paid, it isn't even a fair comparison to other professional team sports. If NFL players only made 30K per year, maybe my opinion would change about the sport.

As it stands, I will just have to live with the fact that I don't have a consistent opinion about doping in athletics.

what you say about football fans may be true but most cycling fans may not have much in common with the average cycling fan.

even some players that used to use steriods claim you can't get away with it anymore in the nfl. they test for epo too.

not to be harsh but, yes you're stance is extremely hypocritical given how hard you are on this sport.

if we go through a tdf where there's a lot of marking of wheels and not alot of aggressive moves what are you going to say?

last years giro we know was dirty as all get out. yet it was more interesting overall watching it at the time, even with ac winning conservative, than this years was

this years dauphine was a snooze. a paid training ride. and the tour de suisse hasn't exactly been on fire.

if we want the sport clean we might have to accept that it may look less aggressive or big D dramatic than it has at times in the last ten years.

what i'm seeing so far is the racing being closer and less aggressive than last year.

even today is was kind of cool to see the last minute move but it wasn't very steep at the end, and their wasn't a lot of drama on the steep part. all said and done there was almost no gap in the end.

maybe i'd feel a little different about the dauphine and suisee if i could actually SEE much of it here in america.

the free internet has been difficult for both.

do most people on this forum paid to get better feeds?

on the issue of low paid riders all you have to do is look at the revenue generated by the different sports.

even the top riders don't make the big money nlb, nfl, and nba guys make.
i'm always for the rider making more. they do the work. it should be hard for owners deciding if they can afford a certain rider.
 
Snake8 said:
But are there any other sports that have a better testing regime? Part of me is curious why so much attention in cycling is on doping? I mean NFL/MLB etc give a slap on the wrist if caught compared to cycling.
MLB also gets a lot of bad media. But their case was worsened by not having a testing program in the nineties. Cycling had it but it was worthless back then. Similar situations in this respect.
 
BikeCentric said:
I think the reason is because cycling is simply about you and your body smashing the pedals harder than the guy next to you and who can withstand more pain. Doping F's with this equation by essentially allowing one rider to inflict more pain on another and also up their power output at any given effort level. Furthermore it is well know that competitive cyclists have to hone their bodies to extremely high levels of physical fitness through the proverbial "living like a monk" - very high quality diet, avoiding alcohol, sleeping lots, etc. The idea of adding drugs to this image of purity is a harsh juxtaposition.

cyclists are mosochists. It is the most grueling sport out there, along with skate cross country skiing. No doubts. I have suffered more on a bike than anything else. Cycling pushes you to absolute limits and beyond. It becomes simply the most obvious sport for doping. But not the only. Olympic track athletes are doped to there teeth, even if they don't suffer as much. Evidently cycling is too romantic and bizzare to be loved. It is loved by the tifosi, but hated by the sporting public. Thus the negative publicity...
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Let me ask you this. Let's just say that eliminating race radio makes the sport of cycling much more exciting. We see more wild time shifts, amazing breakaways, etc.

Would you then be more likely to ignore the doping issue in cycling, the way you do in the NFL?

I don't know, I'd have to see the racing.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
I won't give up my seats for the Panthers regardless of whether they dope or not.

OEEE you got a seat! Wish I could say that :D. Although I moved to DC, I am a little hardheaded that the Redskins will ever have any success...
 
Cycling's drug problems are a big issue in countries like the U.S. because the vast majority of the fans participate in some way in cycling. They are largely middle and upper middle class, and they ride for fitness. People with that background and that reason for cycling do not find doping compatible with why are cyclists. They want to believe that the pros are just like them, but they are not.

By contrast the average NFL viewer is a fat american slob whose personal involvement with the sport amounts to distant memories of watching his high school team play. :)
 
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rhubroma said:
It is the most grueling sport out there, along with skate cross country skiing. No doubts. I have suffered more on a bike than anything else. Cycling pushes you to absolute limits and beyond. It becomes simply the most obvious sport for doping. But not the only.

To illustrate, in the book written by Mart Smeets, in which he interviewed amongst other Steven Rooks, Gert Jakobs and Matthieu Hermans, Gert Jakobs (equipier) admits the use of EPO in the the early 90s. He stated "I did it to survive the TdF. I wouldn't have been a GC contender anyway, but it allowed me to complete a TdF easier."

Obviously, this has an upward spiralling effect. If domestiques do it to assist leaders, you can't really send a clean team to the tour, because the team will fail to do its duties. So the more people use, the higher the speeds, and the more difficult it becomes to compete clean.

BroDeal said:
Cycling's drug problems are a big issue in countries like the U.S. because the vast majority of the fans participate in some way in cycling. They are largely middle and upper middle class, and they ride for fitness. People with that background and that reason for cycling do not find doping compatible with why are cyclists. They want to believe that the pros are just like them, but they are not.

By contrast the average NFL viewer is a fat american slob whose personal involvement with the sport amounts to distant memories of watching his high school team play. :)

Interesting observation. Originally, but I am inclined to believe still in some European countries, cycling was a sport of the lower classes. Miners who needed to increase their poor wages, started competing in local "criteriums" to win prizes or prize money.

It seems that the 'simplicity' of cycling has partly disappeared, with the advent of new, resource intensive technology such as wind tunnels, aero positions, carbon, stifness and other related weightweenyness. This draws a different, perhaps it's fair to say, more middle/upper class crowd, so that the cycling crowd could be divided up (with overlap of course) between the "romantics" and the "progressives". Perhaps this is where the schism between apologists and crusaders comes into existence.
 
jackhammer111 said:
I take it you are saying the events are harder over a longer period of time that the grand tours.

i see they've had their "troubles" too.

What I'm saying is in reference to your comment on climbing stages in cycling races. Believe me, they are indeed very grueling. But for absolute peak demand on the human body, I'd say cycling a 7 hour mountain stage is not as demanding as a 60km XC race that ends on a large climb. This is why in 1987 Stephen Roche collapsed at the top of La Plagne - something you rarely see. But in that video link I posted, almost every XC skier collapsed at the top Val di Fiemme in total exhaustion, which is a somewhat common occurrence in such races.

There are "stage races" in XC skiing too, but nothing like the Tour. No. As far as multi-day events, the Tour probably takes the cake. Though RAAM would be more taxing if the competition were higher.

Oh yes, XC skiing has had many "troubles" as well. :(
 
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Cycling has clearly been "picked on" by WADA due to having little money and no rich owners like other sports have.

I remember reading somewhere that all the ProTour teams budgets added up to 185 million euros in 2006... Yet One single top soccer team has a larger budget! What a joke! Do you know how much those hockey players get paid... Ite not even funny!

TONS of soccer players jacked on epo or blood doping. Yet WADA wont touch that with a 10 foot pole. Why? Because they dont want to pi$$ owners off who wield large amounts of money and power....

Go after big league soccer and see how long they last LOL... The anti=dopers will end up at the bottom of the Mediterranean with cement blocks tied aroud their ankles.
 
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Those Williams sisters.. Serena and Venus, I'd bet the house they are on steroids.... and if you look at their muscles...its not possible for a girl who plays Tennis. LOL :) The "power stroke" is huge in Tennis.
 
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Remember a while back when D$ck Pound made that comment about steroids in Hockey... Boy that was a F up by Pound...! I thought he might have gotten linched by those Canadians LOL. He got out of it though and then made a racial comment about some of their native americans... Got to give him credit for having balls.

He was trying to set an example for WADA people to stop hiding like panzies.
 
BigBoat said:
Those Williams sisters.. Serena and Venus, I'd bet the house they are on steroids.... and if you look at their muscles...its not possible for a girl who plays Tennis. LOL :) The "power stroke" is huge in Tennis.

Another load. While I think steroid use is probably rampant in tennis, you cannot look at someone with the body of a tennis player and determine that they are juicing. It is not exaclty a situation where you can look at a guy's distended abdomen and ridiculously unnatural sized muscles, like that of a pro body builder, and your immediate reaction is that the guy must have been exposed to gamma rays. Good genetics, good nutrition, and good training go a long way.
 
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BroDeal said:
Another load. While I think steroid use is probably rampant in tennis, you cannot look at someone with the body of a tennis player and determine that they are juicing. It is not exaclty a situation where you can look at a guy's distended abdomen and ridiculously unnatural sized muscles, like that of a pro body builder, and your immediate reaction is that the guy must have been exposed to gamma rays. Good genetics, good nutrition, and good training go a long way.

being able to wack the ball like those two 8 balls do is not possible without some juicing. LOL :)

What about poor Cheroponov or whatever her name is... She's not on steroids. I mean loook at her.
 
BigBoat said:
being able to wack the ball like those two 8 balls do is not possible without some juicing. LOL :)

What about poor Cheroponov or whatever her name is... She's not on steroids. I mean loook at her.

When I look at Sharapova I am not thinking about drugs...other than Viagra.

SharapovaRedTennisCourt.jpg
 
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Snake8 said:
Wondering if you all think other sports are as dirty as cycling? Why or why not?

Weightlifting, Kickboxing-boxing, and believe it or not shooting are three that imediately spring to mind. Kick-boxers at K1 level go almost untested believe it or not. The tests they do do are always notified in advance.

Snake8 said:
Lastly, are there any other sports that test as much as cycling?

None even come close!
 
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Snake8 said:
Wondering if you all think other sports are as dirty as cycling? Why or why not?

If as some allege on here that cyclists are so sophisticated with their doping and that it is still rampant, and that they have essentially found ways to elude the tests, why wouldn't other athletes be doing the same things?

Lastly, are there any other sports that test as much as cycling?

anybody mention bodybuilding? lol

governator still shows up at his arnold classic here in columbus to hang out with the steroid monsters every year.

i've seen a couple of these guys... they tell me there's actually a human being in there somewhere.
 
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subzro said:
Weightlifting, Kickboxing-boxing, and believe it or not shooting are three that imediately spring to mind. Kick-boxers at K1 level go almost untested believe it or not. The tests they do do are always notified in advance.



None even come close!

it's not drugs but they caught a guy cheating at the soap box derby one year.

the cars are held on the ramp by a metal plate that drops to let issac newton do his thing... a guy put a magnet on the inside where the plate would rest on the out side. when the plate drops the magnet follows the plate and.... presto... about a 2 to 4 inch advantage at the start that becomes 6 feet at the bottom of the hill...... imagine the gall it would take to cheat the soap box derby....

the penalty should be that each of the podium finishers each and every year get to slap him hard one time across the face.

as long as he lives.
 
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Snake8 said:
Wondering if you all think other sports are as dirty as cycling? Why or why not?
It's not just sport, a friend of mine wanted to become a fireman(in Australia); he went on the roids to pass the physical tests. He felt there was no way he could get to the strength level required in the amount of time given. He said he was not alone.
 
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if you want a dirty sport, look no further then baseball. All of their home run kings admit to pumping the roids (not that any one seems to care)
 
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I think part of the problem is money. There is more money in athletics and football and so they can hire better lawyers and so scare off these stories with legal action. There is less money in cycling and so these things go public quicker.

Just look at OP. When that broke in Spain we were told this went far bigger than cycling and players of Real Madrid, Barca, and other top sportsmen were involved. So far the only names in the public domain are those of cyclists. Why ?

Sure cycling has done a lot to clean up it's image but that's more because with less money they can't hush up the stories so instead tackle the root of the problem. Although you still have to question why serial dopers can have 20 tests and only have one found negative and then the B sample then gets cleared due to the tests being bad or not following procedures.