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Are other sports as dirty as cycling?

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if you want an example of public perception on doping in sport then one thing that everyone's forgotten... Female Chinese swimmers. Got busted majorly at the World Championships in Perth, Aust a few years back yet nothing ever really came of it yet we still hear of the slur on cycling while everyone still thinks swimming is clean...

a friend of mine was a national level sprinter, but never went on to international level because they didn't want to get involved in the doping scene. She said that they were all on it, and that the organisation just didn't want to bust them except for the occasional sacrifice to make it look like they were ousting the occasional transgressor...

on a side note, for the constant references to XC skiers, it's the hardest sport for cardio-vascular fitness in the world, and number 2 is XC MTB... I haven't heard of any doping busts in MTB although I'm sure there are some (even if they're like those encountered in the winter olympics for the snow boarders)
 
Archibald said:
if you want an example of public perception on doping in sport then one thing that everyone's forgotten... Female Chinese swimmers. Got busted majorly at the World Championships in Perth, Aust a few years back yet nothing ever really came of it yet we still hear of the slur on cycling while everyone still thinks swimming is clean...

a friend of mine was a national level sprinter, but never went on to international level because they didn't want to get involved in the doping scene. She said that they were all on it, and that the organisation just didn't want to bust them except for the occasional sacrifice to make it look like they were ousting the occasional transgressor...

on a side note, for the constant references to XC skiers, it's the hardest sport for cardio-vascular fitness in the world, and number 2 is XC MTB... I haven't heard of any doping busts in MTB although I'm sure there are some (even if they're like those encountered in the winter olympics for the snow boarders)
Good note.

I have always wondered about swimming too. Michael Phelps in swimming is probably the equivalent of Lance Armstrong in cycling and the majority of us know what we think of Lance's allegations. I wonder if something like that happens in the swimming teams???
 
Escarabajo said:
Good note.

I have always wondered about swimming too. Michael Phelps in swimming is probably the equivalent of Lance Armstrong in cycling and the majority of us know what we think of Lance's allegations. I wonder if something like that happens in the swimming teams???

The Olympics' governing structure, including all the national bodies, is just as corrupt as cycling's structure. It may even be worse. Many nations are doping their athletes or looking the other way when the athletes do dope. I would not trust any big time Olympic sport. I certainly would not trust Olympic swimming.
 
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Escarabajo said:
Good note.

I have always wondered about swimming too. Michael Phelps in swimming is probably the equivalent of Lance Armstrong in cycling and the majority of us know what we think of Lance's allegations. I wonder if something like that happens in the swimming teams???

I have no doubt that he took something. I was a swimmer in high school and swam with a sprinter that would swim against Matt Biondi and this person specialized on one event, and even beat him. Now look at Michael Phelps, specializing in 8 events.......look at all the good publicity he got for the Olympics, sponsors, and etc.....same thing with Armstrong.
 
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BroDeal said:
The Olympics' governing structure, including all the national bodies, is just as corrupt as cycling's structure. It may even be worse. Many nations are doping their athletes or looking the other way when the athletes do dope. I would not trust any big time Olympic sport. I certainly would not trust Olympic swimming.

sounds kinda like big boat... well, he would have said "all" not "many" maybe.
 
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BroDeal said:
The Olympics' governing structure, including all the national bodies, is just as corrupt as cycling's structure. It may even be worse. Many nations are doping their athletes or looking the other way when the athletes do dope. I would not trust any big time Olympic sport. I certainly would not trust Olympic swimming.

+1 on that ! Olympic Swimming has been one of the largest abusers of PEDs for many years. as with any doping that is going on within a sport usually the managers/teams are either aware of it or are suspicious of doping so they look the other way. I think this has become so commonplace nowadays, it almost seems like the norm. that doesn't justify it though.
 
BroDeal said:
The Olympics' governing structure, including all the national bodies, is just as corrupt as cycling's structure. It may even be worse. Many nations are doping their athletes or looking the other way when the athletes do dope. I would not trust any big time Olympic sport. I certainly would not trust Olympic swimming.

And that's of course because the Olympic Games are above all national propaganda. They are a forum to demosntrate the glory of a nation through athletic gesture and political consensus, as were the Berlin games for Hitler and those durring the Cold War between the communist Soviet regime and the capitalist US superpower. And they were even an arm in the Cold War when the US boycotted the 80 Moscow games and then Moscow did the same at the 84 Los Angeles event. Naturally the last Bejing games were an image maker for New China, that has arrived in the global markets and is rapidly challenging the US nation for global economic hegmony.

They have thus opened up government sponsored doping programs, with the major labs during the cold war located in East Germany, the US and China as has been well documented. In other words the Olympic Games have led to more than any other sport phenomenon the proliferation of doping, while the international governing body is motivated purely by money and the propaganda of the national governments. Indeed Dr. Conconi was paid by the Italian government to do the first scientific experiments on Italy's athletes with EPO use. From the results of these tests, EPO subsequently spread throughout cycling. The athletes are thus mere tools of their nation's propaganda, who, if they do well, become the heros of their country, whereas if they fail fall literally into disgrace.

The Olympic games thus are ideological and, of course, commercial, and have contributed more than any other sporting event to the foul state in terms of widespread doping usage of contemporary top amatuer and professional sports.
 
Archibald said:
...on a side note, for the constant references to XC skiers, it's the hardest sport for cardio-vascular fitness in the world...
Thus the "need" for doping, due to it's efficacy.

rhubroma said:
In other words the Olympic Games have led to more than any other sport phenomenon the proliferation of doping, while the international governing body is motivated purely by money and the propaganda of the national governments...The Olympic games thus are ideological and, of course, commercial, and have contributed more than any other sporting event to the foul state in terms of widespread doping usage of contemporary top amatuer and professional sports.

Excellent post Rhubroma. Couldn't have said it better. When growing up we (USA) were the "good guys" and the Soviets and East Germans were the "bad guys". Only years later did I realize that while what the DDR did to their athletes was sinister, we were in many ways just as dirty and doped. And yes, now it's all about money. Greed and money. Not much difference between this, and Wall Street.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Thus the "need" for doping, due to it's efficacy.
certainly a perceived need... personally i couldn't do it. would get a much bigger high knowing I'd "won it ugly" and done it all myself without cheating.


As for the olympics - they simply don't want to catch them all or there'd be almost no one left to compete...
 
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I think with the Olympics and athletics in general there is just so much money involved in the sport that all the powers that be don't care as much as they get a piece of it. Everyone is on the inside and they all share the pot and it's a nice family.

The only real big case was Ben Johnson but why was he singled out over all the others at the same games ? Bolt wins by the same margin last time out but then that is fine, much like Big Mig we are told he is a freak of nature and that's why he is so much better than the others.
 
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I was watching Wimbledon yesterday, and during the Karol Beck vs Feliciano Lopez match, there was passing mention of Beck having served a 2 yr suspension for doping a few years ago. I think that's the difference, other sports don't publicise their doping cases quite as much as cycling.
 
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I like Phelps and I think he is clean compared to Lance. If you look at him though, I think he shows clear signs of hGH abuse.

Cant blaim him though...BIG money is what drives the Olympics now!
 
Archibald said:
certainly a perceived need... personally i couldn't do it. would get a much bigger high knowing I'd "won it ugly" and done it all myself without cheating.
I know you don't want to get bogged down in doping talk Archibald, and I'd like you to keep posting. But we've discussed many times the pertinant question: If you knew everyone around you were doping - or at least almost everyone. And your choice was either to dope too, with doctor's supervision, or go back to painting houses, what would you do?

Ben Johnson was indeed singled out. Pretty sure it was later revealed in the Exum report that Carl Lewis had doped with amphetamines and uppers of some sort multiple times leading into the Olympics - but the USOC ignored it. Lewis claims it was "over the counter supplement, taken on accident". Whatever.

Anyone who thinks a clean Usain Bolt can run .11 seconds faster (3-4 steps) than a doped up Ben Johnson did, while coasting across the finish line, is living in dreamland.

Anyone remember this (link)? The days of very light drug testing. Record still stands 21 years later, and no one has gotten close. Listen to Marty Liquori when he says in disbelief, "Ahhh, can not be. No one can run that fast." Unless you're a pharmacy with legs, that is.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Anyone remember this (link)? The days of very light drug testing. Record still stands 21 years later, and no one has gotten close. Listen to Marty Liquori when he says in disbelief, "Ahhh, can not be. No one can run that fast." Unless you're a pharmacy with legs, that is.
That's a brilliant clip. The disbelief of the time, and them justifying it by saying it must be an equipment error.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Ben Johnson was indeed singled out. Pretty sure it was later revealed in the Exum report that Carl Lewis had doped with amphetamines and uppers of some sort multiple times leading into the Olympics - but the USOC ignored it. Lewis claims it was "over the counter supplement, taken on accident". Whatever.

Anyone who thinks a clean Usain Bolt can run .11 seconds faster (3-4 steps) than a doped up Ben Johnson did, while coasting across the finish line, is living in dreamland.

Anyone remember this (link)? The days of very light drug testing. Record still stands 21 years later, and no one has gotten close. Listen to Marty Liquori when he says in disbelief, "Ahhh, can not be. No one can run that fast." Unless you're a pharmacy with legs, that is.

How about Kratochvilova's 800m record? Or Marita Koch's 400m? Doping was rampant in East Germany during the 70's and 80's, there were women in discus throwing, shot put and hammer that had to shave their face every morning because they were on a beastly hormone therapy. Flo-Jo dying at 39 and no one coming close to her record since it was set says a lot.
 
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1988 Olympics trials with Florence Griffith Joyner set the world record for the 100meters by .3 seconds and blew away the field, non wind aided. It is basically unheard of a record set by that large of a margin.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Reminds me of the fighter pilots that shot up the Canadians (British?) with friendly fire, and were later found out to be on amphetamines - something that's apparently pretty common.

They were Canadian.

That whole scenario was bad stuff, and don't know how much the amphetamines played a role in it. Chances are they were on a legit approved substance to sustain longer station time and sortie rotations...
 
sherer said:
I can't access you tube at work :( can someone tell me what the clip is of ?
FloJo winning the 1988 Olympic Trials. Must be seen to be believed. It's tragic that she died, but let's be honest...
sherer said:
don't get me started on East German shot putters. It's amazing the things some of these athletes put themselves through
Don't completely blame them. The DDR had most of their athletes on a mandatory doping program where they had no choice, and in many instances the athletes had no idea what they were being doped with. Pretty good Frontline episode on PBS a couple of years ago about the women American swimmers going over to Germany and visiting some of the DDR women - many of whom have had serious health issues since then, and I believe one of them has since died. Pretty sad stuff. (Not to imply the Americans were squeaky clean, but at the time the American women weren't on steroids, or too much of anything. Now, God only knows.).
 
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thanks for filling me in. I read about the DDR and also comments on how Ullrich grew up with this too. At a young age everyone was measured etc and if you fit into the scientific formula then you were selected for a specific sport. After that you had to ride or train for that sport and if you did you got extra food for the family and stuff. You got vitamin injections and i'm sure a lot of these also included extras and stuff too. Taking all this from a young ages gets athletes into the system so by the time team doctors start doing this stuff they don't even question it
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Don't completely blame them. The DDR had most of their athletes on a mandatory doping program where they had no choice, and in many instances the athletes had no idea what they were being doped with. Pretty good Frontline episode on PBS a couple of years ago about the women American swimmers going over to Germany and visiting some of the DDR women - many of whom have had serious health issues since then, and I believe one of them has since died. Pretty sad stuff. (Not to imply the Americans were squeaky clean, but at the time the American women weren't on steroids, or too much of anything. Now, God only knows.).

There was a class action lawsuit some years back, where former DDR athletes were suing the national federation, or the government. Many had health problems, some died, after being injected with god knows what.
I have no idea what came of it. Maybe someone can dig it up?

Found the link:http://overlawyered.com/2005/12/update-east-german-athletes-steroid-suit/
 
Good call on Kratochvilova and Koch's records, Zoncolon.

I guess being an American I focus more on my own compatriots. To me FloJo stands out not only because it's painfully obvious to many that she was doped, but how she died young, and how many people cannot accept that her record was PED aided during an era of heavy doping and had to have been from "great talent" and wind aided with faulty equipment (which would make it the only time in history this was accepted), when it's simply not so, and as an American for me to see this it's almost painful; as embarrassing as Barry Bonds home run records. I watch it, and want to look away.

I know someone may come on here and argue with me, or chide me for speaking ill of the dead, but watch that race again. FloJo ran .16 faster than a doped Marion Jones (who ran wind aided +1.1), and .24 faster than Chris Arron (plus wind aided +2, the limit). A lot of people like to talk about advancement in training and nutrition. Well, Tori Edwards ran the fastest time in years at last year's Olympic Trials, and only 10.78. This is a stunning .29 slower than Joyner, and it was heavily wind aided (+1.8). A third of a second is a lifetime in 100m sprints.