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Armstrong and Bruyneel almost quit?!

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auscyclefan94 said:
True. From what Bruyneel said, who i trust more of what he says compared to LA, Conti doesn't think Bruyneel plays a good tatical game because he continually challenges JB's authority. The guy has DS'd 9 tdf's and many other GT victories. I think he knows his stuff. I don't think Bruyneel even knew who was the leader of Astana or it wasn't decided. All the mixed messages from the riders about the leadership said to me that they weren't decided and there were contradictory messages from the riders which says they were making excuses to cover up the in fighting. Imagine if their was no Radioshack and Bruyneel was locked into his contract at AStana. We'd get some real in fighting. It would also be interesting to see LA ride a tdf without bruyneel or bruyneel being on a different team to LA

I don't have any problem figuring out AC from a language stand point--to the extent one can ever no a person through observing them from a considerable distance (and limited observations). That being said, I questioned JB's tactics this year. Simply because they were counter to every race I'd ever seen him DS. No way he would DS that way on USPS or Discovery. Same will be true at RadioShack. Lance will be #1 and the team will ride for his benefit, and his benefit only, from beginning to end (unless he crashes out or something (I wouldn't wish that upon him or anyone else)). It's not like he was fooling any of the other teams. They knew who the strong man was on Astana. And his name wasn't Lance.

I think it's good that he's moved on with Lance. They work well together and it's no sense trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. AC needs to find a DS that can build upon his strengths and not try to make him into Lance 2.0.
 

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Don't get me wrong, the kid is a legend, obviously. People will laugh at this, but I do get the urge to find out what is special about his physiology which allows him to produce so much power. The same feeling as people had about LA and his big heart and lactate tolerance. It's normal to want to know what seperates the greats from everybody else.
 

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Sprocket01 said:
You could just as easily say JB's comments show LA was not concerned about the personal money. But you wouldn't say that.
Or better still I could just quote what he said.....
“I am happy to announce that after talking with my children, my family and my closest friends, I have decided to return to professional cycling in order to raise awareness of the global cancer burden,"

Or what he said in a video on his website when he announced his return.
"I have decided to return to Professional Cycling in 2009 the reason for this is to launch an international cancer strategy..."
 
scribe said:
It's been said here frequently, but I think you also have to consider the movement of much of the team from Astana to Radioshack as further evidence of the real control of the leadership of the team. It became clear who the strongest rider was as the TdF wore on, but it was never clear the strongest rider had the confidence of the team. Who really knows on the outside? Some make a compelling argument that LA and Bruyneel undermined AC's authority. But who really knows.

I think that's reading far too much into the situation. Astana was a ship without a rudder or a captain. JB had announced he was jumping ship and taking the structure with them. There was real questions about whether Astana would survive. So stay with Astana and no structure or move to Radio Shack with same money and management? It has nothing to do with choosing between AC or LA, and everything to do with stability (financial and otherwise).

But I will agree with you that once LA returned, the entire organization which he built with JB responded to him in ways that it never responded to AC. AC's authority, to the extent it ever actually existed, was fleeting and all but gone upon LA's return. So it should come as no surprise to anyone, least of all JB, that AC didn't trust him any further than he could throw him.
 

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Dr. Maserati said:
Or better still I could just quote what he said.....
“I am happy to announce that after talking with my children, my family and my closest friends, I have decided to return to professional cycling in order to raise awareness of the global cancer burden,"

Or what he said in a video on his website when he announced his return.
"I have decided to return to Professional Cycling in 2009 the reason for this is to launch an international cancer strategy..."

Yes, but your claim is always that he just did it for the money. Now, he would have gotten the money whether he won or lost, as indeed he did, but JB says he almost aborted the comeback because of the break. Your reaction to this is to say this proves the comeback had little to do with cancer awareness. But you could just as easily say the comeback had little to do with the money, given he almost gave up all those appearance fees. You see?

In truth his reputation as a proud champion is all part of the other issues, so they go hand in hand.

Personally I think he was distracted by all the work he did for cancer awareness this year. I hope he concentrates on the training a bit more next time. You can't be meeting PMs and holding dinners and press conferences all the time and expect to be as prepared as you need to be, especially at this stage of his career. We want 100% dedication, and thankfully Contador's remarks about him, and the rest of the hoohaa, should provide the necessarily motivation.
 

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Sprocket01 said:
Yes, but your claim is always that he just did it for the money. Now, he would have gotten the money whether he won or lost, as indeed he did, but JB says he almost aborted the comeback because of the break. Your reaction to this is to say this proves the comeback had little to do with cancer awareness. But you could just as easily say the comeback had little to do with the money, given he almost gave up all those appearance fees. You see?

In truth his reputation as a proud champion is all part of the other issues, so they go hand in hand.

Personally I think he was distracted by all the work he did for cancer awareness this year. I hope he concentrates on the training a bit more next time. You can't be meeting PMs and holding dinners and press conferences all the time and expect to be as prepared as you need to be, especially at this stage of his career. We want 100% dedication, and thankfully Contador's remarks about him, and the rest of the hoohaa, should provide the necessarily motivation.
Clarification:
I have stated that his return has to do with his own competitiveness, ego, pride and indeed money.

It was Mr. Armstrong who made the claims that his return was about Cancer Awareness.
 
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Sprocket01 said:
Personally I think he was distracted by all the work he did for cancer awareness this year. I hope he concentrates on the training a bit more next time. You can't be meeting PMs and holding dinners and press conferences all the time and expect to be as prepared as you need to be, especially at this stage of his career. We want 100% dedication, and thankfully Contador's remarks about him, and the rest of the hoohaa, should provide the necessarily motivation.

He also started training late for this year's tour, and spent some time in the hospital.

Recall how he did in the Leadville 100 last year? Came in second. That motivated him to get back into the bigs, but indicates where his physical base was. This year he won the thing and he destroyed the course record despite doing a good chunk of it on a flat tire. So now he's motivated, he's got a clearly improved physical state to train from, and he's got his own team with no divided purposes.

AC needs to be a better rider next year, and have more focussed support than this year's.

If both of them have improved ability and teams, doesn't that make the whole TdF a better ticket?
 
Slow news day or what?
This Hogwash is today's cycling forum dish of the day.
Comprises of one half revisionist rubbish and one half pure make believe.

If LA and JB had already planned to use Astana to get him up to speed and set up a new team, he was never going to quit over a broken collarbone.

This comeback was a project, not a whim.
Bruyneel seems to be working on a sequel to his last piece of fiction.
 
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yakko! said:
Has anyone ever heard of this or is it something new?

Actually, it sounds familiar. I think there may have been some contemporaneous info on it, but I can't remember if it was in the press or came out on twitter or what. It just doesn't ring as a surprise. Maybe a blurb in one of LA's twitter-linked videos about thinking about not continuing after the crash.
 
derailleur said:
He also started training late for this year's tour, and spent some time in the hospital.

Recall how he did in the Leadville 100 last year? Came in second. That motivated him to get back into the bigs, but indicates where his physical base was. This year he won the thing and he destroyed the course record despite doing a good chunk of it on a flat tire. So now he's motivated, he's got a clearly improved physical state to train from, and he's got his own team with no divided purposes.

AC needs to be a better rider next year, and have more focussed support than this year's.

If both of them have improved ability and teams, doesn't that make the whole TdF a better ticket?

I must have just stumbled into bizarro world.

seinfeld101.jpg
 

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Dr. Maserati said:
Clarification:
I have stated that his return has to do with his own competitiveness, ego, pride and indeed money.

Thank you. You now have the proof, according to your logic, that you needed that it was little to do with this? That's my point.

It was Mr. Armstrong who made the claims that his return was about Cancer Awareness.

And you were the person who said this story showed it was little to do with this.

But on that issue, though I think the evidence shows his cancer project has been a huge part of this year's programme for him, I'll admit there are cultural differences here. It is a very American thing for successful people to have their own charity and foundation and to promote this as their motivation along side everything they do, even though that is not strictly literally true in every sense. In America they just understand this reality and don't think it hypocritical for an athlete, for instance, to still think like an athlete, and think like a business man, even though they are still doing something for charity. Indeed they expect that - nobody doubts that Armstrong's competitive nature is what also drives him. We've got to factor in American culture.
 

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Sprocket01 said:
Thank you. You now have the proof, according to your logic, that you needed that it was little to do with this? That's my point..

No - I'm afraid thats not proof, even by your logic.

A quick one for you - it has been established that he received a generous fee for his participation in the Tour of Ireland.

Besides Olympic years - when did LA ever race in August after 99? ...
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
A quick one for you - it has been established that he received a generous fee for his participation in the Tour of Ireland.

And not just Ireland:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road...9/lance_armstrong_tdu_prerace_pressconf_jan09

Armstrong also dismissed reports that the appearance fee he has been paid to contest Tour Down Under will go to the charity. Earlier in the week South Australian Premier Mike Rann's media department told Cyclingnews that any monies which may have been paid to Armstrong will go to the Livestrong charity.

"That's not true," he said. "In the past few years I've spent most of my time speaking all over the world just like President Clinton, or Al Gore. I'm not getting paid to race, is there a fee for other things? Yes. But that's not any different to what I've done in the last three or four years."

Cheers
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Sprocket01 said:
Thank you. You now have the proof, according to your logic, that you needed that it was little to do with this? That's my point.



And you were the person who said this story showed it was little to do with this.

But on that issue, though I think the evidence shows his cancer project has been a huge part of this year's programme for him, I'll admit there are cultural differences here. It is a very American thing for successful people to have their own charity and foundation and to promote this as their motivation along side everything they do, even though that is not strictly literally true in every sense. In America they just understand this reality and don't think it hypocritical for an athlete, for instance, to still think like an athlete, and think like a business man, even though they are still doing something for charity. Indeed they expect that - nobody doubts that Armstrong's competitive nature is what also drives him. We've got to factor in American culture.

There is little evidence that his cancer project has "been a huge part of the program"

Armstrong's short visits to hospitals in the TDU and the Giro were PAID appearances. If you were at the ToC it would have been clear to you that the goal was to raise awareness of the Armstrong brand (Nike, Giro, Oakley etc.) There was nothing about cancer, it was all about the Armstrong brand. When he posted his daily videos it was on his FOR PROFIT site, not the .org.

It is clear that the return has been financially rewarding for him. Over $3,000,000 in race fees. His enhanced visibility has resulted in a new 3 year endorsement for crappy beer and a new magazine. Meanwhile his "Global Cancer intuitive" floundered for almost a year before he announced anything.

We can all agree that the comeback being about cancer awareness is as believable as the Catlin testing program.
 

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Dr. Maserati said:
No - I'm afraid thats not proof, even by your logic.

Am I not comunicating very well or something? Right, you say JB's remarks show that it had little to do with Cancer Research. But if we were to use that logic, we could just as easily say his comeback had little to do with these appearance fees (that for reasons unknown to myself people are very upset about). Why? Because if he quit he would not have got those appearance fees. Therefore, using your own logic, JB's comments show his comeback had little to do with the money. He almost quit!

A quick one for you - it has been established that he received a generous fee for his participation in the Tour of Ireland.

Besides Olympic years - when did LA ever race in August after 99? ...

I don't understand what is this supposed to prove? Given that he could have gotten generous appearance fees for most of his career for appearing in races past August, this shows you that the money is not the main motivation. Or at least there has to be more than that - like his Cancer Awareness project.
 

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Race Radio said:
If you were at the ToC it would have been clear to you that the goal was to raise awareness of the Armstrong brand (Nike, Giro, Oakley etc.) There was nothing about cancer, it was all about the Armstrong brand. When he posted his daily videos it was on his FOR PROFIT site, not the .org.

He's spoken to pms across the world this year about the cancer issue and their williness to work on joint projects. It's been a huge success for cancer victims around the world who naturally see him as an icon. You are wrong to so casually dismiss this just because its not something that you are interested in.

Yes he had never made any bones about his like for these sponser companies you cite. I think there is quite a lot of ideological objection to Armstrong's activities from some people which is more to do with a political view of the world than Armstrong as an individual.
 
Sprocket01 said:
Am I not comunicating very well or something? Right, you say JB's remarks show that it had little to do with Cancer Research. But if we were to use that logic, we could just as easily say his comeback had little to do with these appearance fees (that for reasons unknown to myself people are very upset about). Why? Because if he quit he would not have got those appearance fees. Therefore, using your own logic, JB's comments show his comeback had little to do with the money. He almost quit!



I don't understand what is this supposed to prove? Given that he could have gotten generous appearance fees for most of his career for appearing in races past August, this shows you that the money is not the main motivation. Or at least there has to be more than that - like his Cancer Awareness project.

I don't understand. A man so commited to raise cancer awareness but then requires fees for getting in races. Didn't Armstrong said in the beginning of the year that his comeback wasn't for his own profit, but only for raising cancer awareness?
 

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Sprocket01 said:
Am I not comunicating very well or something?
....thanks for the laugh.

Sprocket01 said:
Right, you say JB's remarks show that it had little to do with Cancer Research..
Correct.

It was Armstrong - not me - but Armstrong who said his return was about raising Cancer Awareness. Can you explain why a broken collarbone would stop him from raising Cancer Awareness?
 
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afpm90 said:
I don't understand. A man so commited to raise cancer awareness but then requires fees for getting in races. Didn't Armstrong said in the beginning of the year that his comeback wasn't for his own profit, but only for raising cancer awareness?

where did he say he wasn't in for $$$?
 

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afpm90 said:
I don't understand. A man so commited to raise cancer awareness but then requires fees for getting in races. Didn't Armstrong said in the beginning of the year that his comeback wasn't for his own profit, but only for raising cancer awareness?

No, he said that he wouldn't take a salary from the team. At the time I thought this seemed like a transparent attempt to ensure he was allowed to race for Astana, who didn't need him and whose owners are particulaly awkard. I didn't think for one second that he was saying he wouldn't be earning money from other sources - I didn't get that impression at all. That was just obvious and perfectly normal. It's only when it gets onto an internet forum that it all gets twisted into something dodgy and underhand.

LA could have got huge appearance fees for turning up at races throughout his career, but turned most of them down, so it shows you that he's not primarily motivated by money.
 

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Dr. Maserati said:
It was Armstrong - not me - but Armstrong who said his return was about raising Cancer Awareness.

You keep saying that. I know. When did I say that Armstrong did not say that? But you're the one saying these remarks show that his comeback had little to do with cancer awareness. So you therefore must also accept the logic that these comments show it had little to do with the money? Why do you have so much trouble accepting your own logic? Stop dodging.

Can you explain why a broken collarbone would stop him from raising Cancer Awareness?

But you haven't answered my question yet. But being an also-ran would lower his star power a bit and have an effect on his campaign, yes.
 

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Sprocket01 said:
But you haven't answered my question yet. But being an also-ran would lower his star power a bit and have an effect on his campaign, yes.

Ok, I have gone back and read over your posts.

The only question you aked that makes any sence is this.........
Sprocket01 said:
Am I not comunicating very well or something? .
Being blunt, NO.