Armstrong Retires, Again

[Dr. Maserati]

What part of 99 did he stop working with him? Pre giro then Ferrari must have been overated. After giro then Ferrari's legendary ability to elude the tests is overated. Please clarify because you may be straying from the cw.

Well, you need to clarify - are you asking a question or answering it?

Pantani's career went downhill after 99 Giro.
No idea where your getting the blue from - pretty easy to elude a test that wasn't around until 2001.

What does CW mean?

I didn't introduce the theory, I'm just rehashing the sentiment that many on here have with regards to Ferrari's power to produce champions.

I will ask you once again not to dissect every word of my post. This is an internet Forum, not a court of law. The implication of my post is obvious.

As far as the list of riders under other doctors, It proves that Ferrari was not the only option when it came to doping. If Armstrong had chosen one of those doctors instead of Ferrari, maybe the outcome would have been the same?

The implication of your post is indeed obvious - and exceedingly shortsighted.
Cecchini was the master in the early 90's and Ferrari was his star pupil - where Ferrari earned his reputation was transforming riders like Rominger in to GT contenders, this was why his reputaion surpassed Cecchini.

Funny how you try and suggest that I am saying that the forum is some sort of Court of Law - and then you write your list "proves" something.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Well, you need to clarify - are you asking a question or answering it?

Pantani's career went downhill after 99 Giro.
No idea where your getting the blue from - pretty easy to elude a test that wasn't around until 2001.

What does CW mean?

CW = conventional wisdom.

I am asking when Pantani stopped working with Ferrari. You say until 99 that means Pantani scorched the giro in 99 without his services. I am asking you to clarify. If you say after the giro then one of the big rumors about Ferrari was that he was so good he could manipulate testing so his clients don't get caught. You know part of the unfair advantage Lance had over the others, along with his seemingly unique situation of paying off the UCI that also infect the test results of all challengers in the tour over that 7 year period. You line me out on that lol so I don't want to digress any more on that yessireee.

Pantani got busted for 50+ crit right? So what happened there if he was working with Ferrari in that giro?

 

[Race Radio]

CW = conventional wisdom.

I am asking when Pantani stopped working with Ferrari. You say until 99 that means Pantani scorched the giro in 99 without his services. I am asking you to clarify. If you say after the giro then one of the big rumors about Ferrari was that he was so good he could manipulate testing so his clients don't get caught. You know part of the unfair advantage Lance had over the others, along with his seemingly unique situation of paying off the UCI that also infect the test results of all challengers in the tour over that 7 year period. You line me out on that lol so I don't want to digress any more on that yessireee.

Pantani got busted for 50+ crit right? So what happened there if he was working with Ferrari in that giro?

He wasn't. Pantani stopped working with him after the double in 1998

 

[Skandar Akbar]

He wasn't. Pantani stopped working with him after the double in 1998

OK thank you Mr. Radio. Doc likes to play gotcha and play word games but you come striaght. Now you and others imply ferrari was reason Pantani was good do you not? If that is the case how was Pantani so good in 99 up until he got caught? If one didn't know anybetter one might think this ferrari = dope god may be a little overblown. But it is a good line to take to bash Lance. I'm sorry I say this please everybody don't call me names.

 

[Ferminal]

OK thank you Mr. Radio. Doc likes to play gotcha and play word games but you come striaght. Now you and others imply ferrari was reason Pantani was good do you not? If that is the case how was Pantani so good in 99 up until he got caught? If one didn't know anybetter one might think this ferrari = dope god may be a little overblown. But it is a good line to take to bash Lance. I'm sorry I say this please everybody don't call me names.

Where has anyone suggested that?

Armstrong... maybe
Pantani... no

 

[Race Radio]

OK thank you Mr. Radio. Doc likes to play gotcha and play word games but you come striaght. Now you and others imply ferrari was reason Pantani was good do you not? If that is the case how was Pantani so good in 99 up until he got caught? If one didn't know anybetter one might think this ferrari = dope god may be a little overblown. But it is a good line to take to bash Lance. I'm sorry I say this please everybody don't call me names.

I think that Ferrari was only part of the story. If you combine Ferrari with a willingness to take risks, advanced notice of testing and you have a killer combo.

 

[andy1234]

Well, you need to clarify - are you asking a question or answering it?

Pantani's career went downhill after 99 Giro.
No idea where your getting the blue from - pretty easy to elude a test that wasn't around until 2001.

What does CW mean?


The implication of your post is indeed obvious - and exceedingly shortsighted.
Cecchini was the master in the early 90's and Ferrari was his star pupil - where Ferrari earned his reputation was transforming riders like Rominger in to GT contenders, this was why his reputaion surpassed Cecchini.

Funny how you try and suggest that I am saying that the forum is some sort of Court of Law - and then you write your list "proves" something.

Cecchini was Ferrari's pupil but I'm sure you know that...

Ferrari certainly had a reputation, but until his relationship with Armstrong, he was one of several doctors who riders would call upon for success.
Indurain certainly appeared to have a succesfull relationship with Conconi.

Cecchini also had sucess beyond the early 90's, he produced tour winners in both 96 and 97. A better track record than Ferrari before Armstrong's comeback.

 

[Race Radio]

Cecchini was Ferrari's pupil but I'm sure you know that...

Ferrari certainly had a reputation, but until his relationship with Armstrong, he was one of several doctors who riders would call upon.
Indurain certainly appeared to have a succesfull relationship with Conconi.

Cecchini also had sucess beyond the early 90's, he produced tour winners in both 96 and 97. A better track record than Ferrari before Armstrong's comeback.

Cecchini was NOT Ferrari's pupil. They both worked as research assistants to Conconi and worked on Mosers hour record along with Sassi, Casoni, Grazzi, Santuccione and Mazzoni.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

I think that Ferrari was only part of the story. If you combine Ferrari with a willingness to take risks, advanced notice of testing and you have a killer combo.

Oh yes I agree but I'm just not sure Ferrari was that much better and Pantani in 99 maybe proves that to some extent. I personally do not know how much risk taking was going on unless one was totally stupid during this time. Like I say to doc on that other thread and what I joke about upthread I think more than Lance was paying the authorities but some may think differently and that is cool.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK thank you Mr. Radio. Doc likes to play gotcha and play word games but you come striaght. Now you and others imply ferrari was reason Pantani was good do you not? If that is the case how was Pantani so good in 99 up until he got caught? If one didn't know anybetter one might think this ferrari = dope god may be a little overblown. But it is a good line to take to bash Lance. I'm sorry I say this please everybody don't call me names.

I do try and choose my words carefully - which is why I said "also it is likely that Pantani was a Ferrari customer until 99".
The reason I said 'likely' is because his performance was still good up until Giro 99.

As for me liking "to play gotcha and play word games" - thats a fair observation - as I was impressed that you knew what CW is... haven't heard it in a while.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

I do try and choose my words carefully - which is why I said "also it is likely that Pantani was a Ferrari customer until 99".
The reason I said 'likely' is because his performance was still good up until Giro 99.

As for me liking "to play gotcha and play word games" - thats a fair observation - as I was impressed that you knew what CW is... haven't heard it in a while.

I know alot of things doctor and I have learned alot of those things from some interesting people. I'm sure you understand how life is one big schoolyard and we all soak things in and learn. You know how it is doctor.

Its ok Mr. Radio cleared up that Ferrari stopped working with him prior to 99 so no need to twist yourself up here with your qualifiers like you are so apt to do. Plus I know you are probably waiting for a newspaper article to clear things up for you like with the UCI payoffs.

Funny I thought his performance was good in the 99 giro as well but you say it ws good up to it, which would usually mean in english that his form fell off in the giro. Did Pantani have a rocket in his behind or something in the giro to make up for his poor form?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Cecchini was Ferrari's pupil but I'm sure you know that...

Ferrari certainly had a reputation, but until his relationship with Armstrong, he was one of several doctors who riders would call upon for success.
Indurain certainly appeared to have a succesfull relationship with Conconi.

Cecchini also had sucess beyond the early 90's, he produced tour winners in both 96 and 97. A better track record than Ferrari before Armstrong's comeback.

"Cecchini was Ferraris pupil"??

Thats up there with BPC's assertion that Ferrari developed the 'Conconi test'.

 

[andy1234]

"Cecchini was Ferraris pupil"??

Thats up there with BPC's assertion that Ferrari developed the 'Conconi test'.

"Some sources claim that Cecchini was a pupil of Michele Ferrari who was a student of Francesco Conconi, but Cecchini himself has denied this …..."

He "allegedly" worked under Ferrari at Ariostea.


Interestingly he also denies working under Conconi.

Yes, an honest mistake. Apologies.

It's almost as dumb as "Cecchini was the master in the early 90's and Ferrari was his star pupil"

 

[badskippy]

He should have married a tester or a chaperone. Now that would have been a great spin.

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[Dr. Maserati]

"Some sources claim that Cecchini was a pupil of Michele Ferrari who was a student of Francesco Conconi, but Cecchini himself has denied this*…..."

Yes, an honest mistake. Apologies.

It's almost as dumb as "Cecchini was the master in the early 90's and Ferrari was his star pupil"

I made an honest mistake - I got my Coconi's and Cecchini's mixed up.

But saying Cecchini is Ferrari's student is plain ridiculous. They were both assistants to Conconi.

Can you link the first quote in your posts - as when I goggle it I get 'reference.com' that says:

Cecchini has also been named in doping investigations into the sport. Some sources claim that Cecchini was a pupil of Michele Ferrari who was a student of Francesco Conconi, but Cecchini himself has denied this.

 

[andy1234]

I made an honest mistake - I got my Coconi's and Cecchini's mixed up.

But saying Cecchini is Ferrari's student is plain ridiculous. They were both assistants to Conconi.

Can you link the first quote in your posts - as when I goggle it I get 'reference.com' that says:

Read my edited post.

Almost as rediculous as claiming he worked under Conconi?

"Together with Francesco Conconi and Michele Ferrari, Cecchini has brought cycling to a higher level. But those three names are also linked with doping affairs. Cecchini said: "Everywhere they call me a pupil of Conconi but I only know him from coventions for sports physians. I met him only once. I also was only once at the Ferrara university. Still my name is being linked with that university in the media. Why? I don't have a clue. I also wasn't in close contact with Ferrari. We worked together for one season with Ariostea. Our contact was dry and business related but with mutual respect."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Read my edited post.
Almost as rediculous as claiming he worked under Conconi?

"Together with Francesco Conconi and Michele Ferrari, Cecchini has brought cycling to a higher level. But those three names are also linked with doping affairs. Cecchini said: "Everywhere they call me*a pupil of Conconi but I only know him from coventions for sports physians. I met him only once. I also was only once at the Ferrara university. Still my name is being linked with that university in the media. Why?*I don't have a clue. I also wasn't in close contact with Ferrari. We worked together for one season with Ariostea. Our contact was*dry and business related but with mutual respect."

Again you like to use (unsourced) parts of wikipedia/reference.com articles.

Conconi was the Professor at Ferrara University, he was the one that the IOC and CONI gave funds to, not his assistants.

 

[VeloCity]

Cecchini also had sucess beyond the early 90's, he produced tour winners in both 96 and 97. A better track record than Ferrari before Armstrong's comeback.

Ferrari's, er, abilities and track record were well established long before he started working with Armstrong. At least as early as '94, when he was the Gewiss team doc, the year when Gewiss riders won just about everything. It was his "success" with Gewiss that allowed him to go freelance (after being fired by Gewiss) and line up a stable of big-name clients.

 

[andy1234]

Again you like to use (unsourced) parts of wikipedia/reference.com articles.

Conconi was the Professor at Ferrara University, he was the one that the IOC and CONI gave funds to, not his assistants.

The Cecchini quotes are from an interview in "De Telegraaf"

But go ahead and ignore the fact that Cecchini himself denies being a pupil of Conconi's and only met him once. Ridiculous eh?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

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When I first read the news article regarding Lance’s Retirement I was trying to find an underlying issue that would have caused him to call it quits again. I was unable to put a finger on anything so I guess he just decided to open a big can of quit and sit it out.

It is sad that his character is so weak that he would quit on his team at this time. Some folks were counting on him to be at the TOC and the Coors Classic.

BTW the OP’s assertion that he would want to avoid the revised testing makes no sense at all. He did not need to take PED’s to complete the TOC or the Classic. I think he just decided to be selfish and open that quit can up. Sad sack.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The Cecchini quotes are from an interview in "De Telegraaf"

But go ahead and ignore the fact that Cecchini himself denies being a pupil of Conconi's and only met him once. Ridiculous eh?

Well if you want to take the word of a doping Doctor and not check to see if it might be true, go right ahead - but you might end up making a lot of "honest mistakes".

In Dan Coyles book 'Lance Armstrongs War' it says:

Ferrari was Conconi's prize student, and wrote his thesis on anaerobic threshold; Cecchini studied at Ferrara for one year.

 

[andy1234]

Well if you want to take the word of a doping Doctor and not check to see if it might be true, go right ahead - but you might end up making a lot of "honest mistakes".

In Dan Coyles book 'Lance Armstrongs War' it says:

Next time I will check my facts with Dan Coyle LOL.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Next time I will check my facts with Dan Coyle LOL.

Well I am sure that Coyle didn't check his "facts' on wiki and reference.com like yourself - so it would be progress if you do.

 

[AngusW]

Lance Armstrong Retires, Again

I couldn't let the retirement of the world's greatest ever cyclist pass without making a comment on an internet cycling forum.

However, when Eddy Merckx retired in 1978, there were no internet cycling forums around.

On a side note, have a long and happy retirement, Mr Armstrong. There are people that love you and people that hate you, but wouldn't it be great if they could base their opinions on the truth? Given that the latest myth about you is that you were a professional cyclist for 20 years, I doubt that there will be much truth spoken about you anytime soon.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

On a side note, have a long and happy retirement, Mr Armstrong. There are people that love you and people that hate you, but wouldn't it be great if they could base their opinions on the truth? Given that the latest myth about you is that you were a professional cyclist for 20 years, I doubt that there will be much truth spoken about you anytime soon.

i doubt he'll have either. a 'professional' cyclist means 20 years of doping and cheating, not much of a life to look back on if you ask me. try telling that to your kids, truthfully.

Stephen Swart realised that very quickly after he retired.