Armstrong will never be caught for EPO or blood boosting and here's why!!

[Dr. Maserati]

This is probably true as well. Some people respond to drug therapy better than others. Willy Voet pointed out in his book how Alex Zulle generally didn't respond well, and an overmix of cordicoids cost him the 1998 Giro. Shame, Alex was an extremely talented rider.

Another way to look at this is tuning. You start with a master doctor (Ferrari), a willing patient (Lance) and you can spend the time tuning the program. The more you win, the more money you have, the more tuning you get. The further up the ladder, the better the stuff, the more attention to getting you perfect, and the less likelihood you'll get caught. This, as much as anything to me, is why doping sucks, and needs to be suppressed (it will never be eliminated).

Totally agree on the 'why doping sucks' comment.

I have mentioned this book before, but in The Death of Marco Pantani there is a chapter that explains how different athletes respond to EPO and that that there is a clear advantage for some people over other's.

There is a widespread view among many that if all athletes are doped that it is a level playing field - and that chapter shows clearly that is not the case.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There is a widespread view among many that if all athletes are doped that it is a level playing field - and that chapter shows clearly that is not the case.

Good post. Completely not the case. See my post in BigBoat's thread on legalizing doping with EPO for the simplest example.

Going back to Zulle. I don't remember all Voet wrote, but Alex was a very talented rider, a great time trialist who could climb very well. I think in a level playing field he would have won more than he did. Maybe a lot more. His poor response to synacten cost him the 1998 Giro, and I still think they couldn't get him tuned or he just didn't respond well enough to EPO, which is why he had so many bad days, and so often would get dropped or completely fade for no reason. His body likely didn't process the way Riis (or Armstrong, etc.) did.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Good post. Completely not the case. See my post in BigBoat's thread on legalizing doping with EPO for the simplest example.

Going back to Zulle. I don't remember all Voet wrote, but Alex was a very talented rider, a great time trialist who could climb very well. I think in a level playing field he would have won more than he did. Maybe a lot more. His poor response to synacten cost him the 1998 Giro, and I still think they couldn't get him tuned or he just didn't respond well enough to EPO, which is why he had so many bad days, and so often would get dropped or completely fade for no reason. His body likely didn't process the way Riis (or Armstrong, etc.) did.

Yeah that makes sense. Plus another thing just came to my mind: in the JV/FA-Chat, it was said Ullrich never had a hematokrit above 42 in the TdF (i wonder where those drivers got that information). And you posted the white/grey/black-Thing. So it seems Riis and Lance were heavy dopers, while Ullrich did not overuse it (dark grey), coz he may wanted to survive (meaning not winning at all costs like Riis, Virenque and Lance). This all makes it more bitter for us that Ullrich is the scapegoat and Lance brings back his old style (what he formerly did to Bassons, Simeoni he now tried to Sastre, Vandevelde). Ullrich should never have waited 2003 when Lance was falling. But he tried to be fair. Bitter, bitter.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That info on Ullrich's hct came from the JV/Andreu IM where JV says with surprise that Kevin Livingston, who went from USPS to T-Mobile said that at that time (2001-2002) T-Mob didn't have a doping program, and Ullrich's hct was often down to 39. I'm going to add one big thing though, that Kevin didn't say: As far as he knew. There's ample room to think that T-Mob was cleaner during that time frame, and Kevin was left out of any loops.

On 2003. Where it hurt Jan was that he is a rhythm climber. He, more than any other GC contender in recent years, couldn't not accelerate much at all on the climbs. He was indeed a big diesel. So while they were all riding along near maximum, for him to have to break that rhythm and wait for Lance put a much bigger damper on him than it did Hamilton and the others in that group. It's not like Lance zoomed up to them, and right on past, no. But Jan was definitely derailed when that happened. This is especially evident when you watch the preceding stages and climbs in comparison.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

That info on Ullrich's hct came from the JV/Andreu IM where JV says with surprise that Kevin Livingston, who went from USPS to T-Mobile said that at that time (2001-2002) T-Mob didn't have a doping program, and Ullrich's hct was often down to 39. I'm going to add one big thing though, that Kevin didn't say: As far as he knew. There's ample room to think that T-Mob was cleaner during that time frame, and Kevin was left out of any loops.

On 2003. Where it hurt Jan was that he is a rhythm climber. He, more than any other GC contender in recent years, couldn't not accelerate much at all on the climbs. He was indeed a big diesel. So while they were all riding along near maximum, for him to have to break that rhythm and wait for Lance put a much bigger damper on him than it did Hamilton and the others in that group. It's not like Lance zoomed up to them, and right on past, no. But Jan was definitely derailed when that happened. This is especially evident when you watch the preceding stages and climbs in comparison.

I wonder how you know so much and still find time to answer to all those posts of pipo. You must be super human
Anyway i like your style of writing and the information you give. Thanks alot i learned some new things since joining the forum. the quality here is much higher then on other forums.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I wonder how you know so much and still find time to answer to all those posts of pipo. You must be super human
Anyway i like your style of writing and the information you give. Thanks alot i learned some new things since joining the forum. the quality here is much higher then on other forums.

+ 1.

There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum who are also objective and able to participate in interesting debates.
I have only been here a couple of weeks but in that time I have learned a great deal.

 

[A moron]

1993-1997 were years of just mega doping. No restrictions on hct, no EPO tests at all, etc.

And still, riders tell me that it's become even worse!!! And even their (clean) doctors tell them that race speed has gone up... All those top riders are faster than in 93-97!

How come, that a rider who won several national titels and is considered a good climber, climbs a pass during the Tour de Suisse in 39-23/25, while Roman Kreuziger is using the big chainring on that very part? And 80kg/176Pound Cancellara climbs as if he had never done anything else?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

+ 1.

There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum who are also objective and able to participate in interesting debates.
I have only been here a couple of weeks but in that time I have learned a great deal.

Yeah its not that black/white talk as in other forums. And the discussing goes much deeper and pipo are not calling names each other if having an opposite opinion. Just still wonder how they find all the time

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks Foxy, Dr. M, appreciate it.

To try to answer the question how I post so much: Mrs. Alpe is currently out of town helping take care of her mother who is in chemo, so I have the house to myself. I've also been working less over the spring-summer, though come late August I'll be back to 40+ hours a week.

As to my knowledge. I'm really just a lay poster. But as I said elsewhere, Mrs. Alpe was once pre-med (pre-vet actually) and went through a year of organic chemistry, a year of biology, a year of physics, and took biochem, and a slew of other sciences. She almost applied to Loyola school of medicine, but it didn't happen. Her best friend is a nurse with a degree in biology, and she has studied hemotology. She knows a lot about EPO and other blood boosters, as she sees them used. She finds me rather odd, and inquisitive, and honstly can't answer a lot of my questions, but is smart. Also one of my best friends is an MD/PhD (yes, double doctor) who works in neural oncology and genetic research. His first project in med school was a study on long term potential for cancer, and metastasis, due to heavy steroid use (the Lyle Alzedo situation) and quite frankly, the guy is a total genius beyond comprehension. I can't always get his time, and there are things he doesn't know about doping (but can figure it out pretty damned quick), but he can be an invaluable resource.

I also used to be a racer years ago, though never above Cat 3 - my VO2 Max is a paltry 66 - and I was fairly connected to a lot of racers above me who shared some stories. I also did a little bit of coaching, but only on an amateur level. I've tried to keep my mind open in the darker side of the sport at times, but admittedly my connections are often minimal, weak, dated.

I'm also good at surfing the net and reading reports, and dissecting info. I pull stuff form other sites, forums like CuttingEdgeMuscle where I lurk. I'm not on the level of Cobbles with my knowledge, no, and Blackcat has what appears better connections and deeper knowledge. BigBoat is probably deeper too, and knows a lot. I just don't blather the way he does about things.

Finally, I know what you mean about other forums. I posted some on CF a few years ago (different screen name. Some have tried to "out" me, but none successful yet!), but less than here. That place got too old and filled with crap and I haven't been there in months. I posted a lot on Bicycling (different name there too, but I'm easier to find and have been "outed" on this one), as it's laid back and more quiet. But there is a tight knit group of people there that don't easily let people in. New members often get hazed and ignored, then give up. I've been elsewhere, but until this place opened up, I've never posted so much with so much frequency as any other message board in my life. It's been awesome here so far, but the last few weeks have seen a shift to more like what happened to CF. Hopefully once the Tour is over things will get more back to normal.

 

[pmcg76]

I wonder how you know so much and still find time to answer to all those posts of pipo. You must be super human
Anyway i like your style of writing and the information you give. Thanks alot i learned some new things since joining the forum. the quality here is much higher then on other forums.

Alpe is one of the best posters on here, well-read, realistic, balanced, no histrinonics and with a lot of experience as a cycling fan. It is easy to figure this out from his posts. I usually agree with his posts but I have to admit I dont have his stamina for posting so often and intelligently. Oh yeah, I am not his best budddy in case people were wondering, for some reason I always think of Pascal Richard when he posts?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

And still, riders tell me that it's become even worse!!! And even their (clean) doctors tell them that race speed has gone up... All those top riders are faster than in 93-97!

How come, that a rider who won several national titels and is considered a good climber, climbs a pass during the Tour de Suisse in 39-23/25, while Roman Kreuziger is using the big chainring on that very part? And 80kg/176Pound Cancellara climbs as if he had never done anything else?

So what you think? We are already into Gene-Doping? Me too, i wonder. But as far as i remember there were more hills and longer TT in the 90s and we are still not at record pace as of 2005 (41,7 km/h), it got down (40,8)-down (39,2)-up (40,5).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah its not that black/white talk as in other forums. And the discussing goes much deeper and pipo are not calling names each other if having an opposite opinion. Just still wonder how they find all the time

Thankfully we can hide out here in The Clinic - things were getting a bit crazy on the other forum - but hopefully it will calm down once the Tour de Lance is over.
The Clinic reminds me of the Doctor's office that Tony Soprano and Uncle Jun used to hide out in and discuss 'business'.

 

[A moron]

So what you think? We are already into Gene-Doping? Me too, i wonder. But as far as i remember there were more hills and longer TT in the 90s and we are still not at record pace as of 2005 (41,7 km/h), it got down (40,8)-down (39,2)-up (40,5).

Well you can't really compare those, since there were different stages, different weather etc.
What you can compare though is the impression that riders get who have raced for several years... They say it's become worse than ever.
Riders compare the speed of this years Giro and the Tour de Suisse, and they state that the Giro has been much slower than the TdS...

I've heard that there have been races, where riders knew that there would be no testing, and funny things happened... Conti riders made ProTour riders look like club cyclists

btw, that's what happens a lot: I consider many average ProTour riders to be clean, for they are tested so many times... On the other hand some hillbilly Conti-Team riders may have to pee once or twice a year... And UCI/WADA won't run expensive tests for some 2nd class riders!
That's why Conti-Teams sometimes ride like maniacs in UCI 2.HC/2.1/2.2

But I think no one has ever tried Gene-Doping... As long as there's some new, undetectable stuff on the market (EPO 4th generation), no one's gonna take that risk!

 

[BroDeal]

And still, riders tell me that it's become even worse!!! And even their (clean) doctors tell them that race speed has gone up... All those top riders are faster than in 93-97!

And this is one of the things that is really puzzling. It apparently cannot be explained by the drugs and doping techniques that have been exposed so far. But you also have to look at Kohl, who claims he was only blood doping during the Tour, yet he achieved a fantastic result. Ricco and Schumacher with their CERA were also a step above everyone else.

Is it not the top end performance on any given stage that has increased but the average across all stages? That would point to something dealing with recovery.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

For some reason I always think of Pascal Richard when he posts?

Hmmmm, wonder why?!

Pascal was one of my favorite racers, obviously. Always had a smile on his face, and loved to race. Great climber with a bit of a sprint too, making him fun to watch. And he had great style on, and off, the bike. I hear he now owns a high-end Italian designer clothing shop in Geneva. Which I'd believe, but don't know if it's true.

Last post for hours guys, got to go out for a ride.

 

[blackcat]

And this is one of the things that is really puzzling. It apparently cannot be explained by the drugs and doping techniques that have been exposed so far. But you also have to look at Kohl, who claims he was only blood doping during the Tour, yet he achieved a fantastic result. Ricco and Schumacher with their CERA were also a step above everyone else.

Is it not the top end performance on any given stage that has increased but the average across all stages? That would point to something dealing with recovery.

I loved Ricco the little arrogant twerp. Who gives themselves a nickname for god's sake. Big cognitive dissonance on my part, like Clement l'Hotellerie, Ricco was know for his doping exploits as a young junior. Not a junior, a young junior. Those guys had not just reps as normal chargers, but bad reps.

But Ricco was entertaining. I thought he could win the Tour last year. He was in some great form. Pity "form" is just a euphemism for lottery jackpot of perfect correlation with the medical program. Nothing about "form" in it.

 

[BroDeal]

I loved Ricco the little arrogant twerp. Who gives themselves a nickname for god's sake. Big cognitive dissonance on my part, like Clement l'Hotellerie, Ricco was know for his doping exploits as a young junior. Not a junior, a young junior. Those guys had not just reps as normal chargers, but bad reps.

But Ricco was entertaining. I thought he could win the Tour last year. He was in some great form. Pity "form" is just a euphemism for lottery jackpot of perfect correlation with the medical program. Nothing about "form" in it.

I did not mind Ricco. I though he was pretty funny, he had an outrageous style both on and off the bike, and he annoyed people, which is even funnier. I like how he is basically unapologetic while all the other people start cyring like Millar when they are caught.

He will be in a bad position when he comes back. He will need to dope but he will have to very careful. Getting banned for life at a young age would not be good.

Didn't Savoldelli give himself his nickname? I seem to recall that he did?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

At least Paolo's nickname fit. Same with Simoni.

Who gave Cadel his nickname?!

Excellent post, Hayden. Pretty much couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[lwebb12]

I am glad some attention is finally being drawn to these conspiracies. Consider the following:

FACT: there are 5 letters in the word "Lance", and 9 letters in Armstrong. If we take the average, the number is 7. Exactly the number of times he has won the Tour. Coincidence?

FACT: Armstrong consulted with Dr. Michelle Ferrari. Who was the most famous driver of Ferraris? Michael Schumacher. Substitute a "k" for the "ch" and you have Schumaker, which rhymes with "shoe maker." Who is the largest shoe maker? That's right. Nike.

This is comedy golde!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I commend the OP for tossing the chum in the water so we can watch the fanboys stir themselves into a frenzy.

Well done.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Why don't they test his 2004/2005 samples for Cera Epo? Perhaps they will find something. But I doubt it.

My thoughts are that Armstrong isn't on EPO. He has some new drug not widely known other than by the USA Elite/Army, etc. They're always testing new things to make their soldiers stronger/faster.

I've heard and read of tests they recently carried out on rats by gene therapy that made them 1/3 stronger/faster, etc. But the downside was they ate 1/3 more and became more aggressive. I don't know much about Armstrongs eating styles, but the aggressive side fits in okay.

Before you think I'm crazy think of the following facts.
He is good friends with George Bush and Co. He was as good as dead with cancer. What did he have to lose by using himself as a guinea pig to test some product or allow changes to be made to his genes. It would explain his superhuman efforts that were so unlike him prior to cancer. Remember Indurain blasting past him in the timetrial!! Weight loss won't have sped him up there!!. Armstrong winning has benefited the USA immensely. Why wouldn't the USA allow him (the best USA cyclist at the time) to make them look good.

You are one crazy, conspiracy theorist. With an interview on an american tv show, I was amazed how much he knew about genetic doping and how that was going to be the way of the future.

http://bodensonline.com/images/***.jpg

 

[auscyclefan94]

I am glad some attention is finally being drawn to these conspiracies. Consider the following:

FACT: there are 5 letters in the word "Lance", and 9 letters in Armstrong. If we take the average, the number is 7. Exactly the number of times he has won the Tour. Coincidence?

FACT: Armstrong consulted with Dr. Michelle Ferrari. Who was the most famous driver of Ferraris? Michael Schumacher. Substitute a "k" for the "ch" and you have Schumaker, which rhymes with "shoe maker." Who is the largest shoe maker? That's right. Nike.

FACT: LA moved to and trained in Aspen, which is short for Always Scrutinizing Performance Enhancing Novelties

FACT: LA has 4 kids named Luke David, Isabelle Rose, Grace Elizabeth and Max. If you take the alphabetical-order-numbers corresponding to the first letters of their names and dial this number (1249187513) in Italy you'll get an automatic telephone service with Michele Ferrari's voice saying when and where the next meeting will be

That's crazy but funny!!!!

 

[auscyclefan94]

At least Paolo's nickname fit. Same with Simoni.

Who gave Cadel his nickname?!

Excellent post, Hayden. Pretty much couldn't have said it better myself.

Daniel Friebe

 

[Boeing]

It might have more to do with his and Livestrongs leverage in the Pharmaceutical Lobby

but I just made that up and dont give a SHI anymore about the dope topic

 

[red_flanders]

You are one crazy, conspiracy theorist.

Yeah, that was pretty convoluted. You think maybe he's just been blood doping since about 2000, like almost everyone else? Hmmm.

You can't get enough Bob Ross, btw...