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Armstrong's 09/10 blood values

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I believe the AFLD were able to provide some of the missing pieces to the values. Passport + AFLD and gaps were filled.

Blood, urine and hair.

He knows it as well. The hope was the AFLD would never see the passport and vice versa.

I hope he doesn't accuse the Federal Agents who obtained the samples of tampering.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Trond Vidar said:
here you are, with google translate

http://translate.google.com/transla...ur_de_france/lance_armstrong/7936858/&act=url

He is saying that it is nearly impossible to manipulate the values to get as low as Lances hemoglobin in these tests. If he were to manage it, the blood values would not be stable - thus detectable.

The file in that story was modified by Lance. he changed multiple values after people questioned them.

Lance sure could clear this up if he released the 2010 values. Most experts who specialized in sports doping agree the 2009 values were questionable, wonder why he is hiding the 2010 values?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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The modification of Lance blood values , he never explained if it was a mistake of UCI.
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Hemoglobin values are too low that it is possible to manipulate down there. I interpret this to mean that he must be clean

I don’t understand what he’s saying. If he means LA could not have natural Hb levels of 15-16, fine, but so what? The point is that his levels did not drop during the TDF. The fact that his natural levels that remained more or less constant during the Tour were low has nothing to do with the question of manipulation. If you have a natural Hb level of 13, you can use transfusion/EPO to stabilize that level during a GT just as easily as if you have a natural level of 15-16. Maybe I’m missing something, but his point is not clear to me.

Another important point he doesn’t address: LA’s Hb values are in line with his HT, which is in the low 40s. This is indeed on the low end of the average for males, but this would have potentially given him an advantage. It means he could raise his HT to higher levels without tripping the 50% criterion. And IIRC, he did indeed have HT levels close to 50% in the late 90s, before there was a test for EPO. The riders who stood to benefit most from EPO were always the ones with naturally low HTs.

Even after the test for EPO was available, as long as he could beat that test—by microdosing, by blood transfusion, maybe by masking—he could manipulate his HT through a considerable range. Up to his initial retirement in 2005, the main thing he had to be concerned about was his off-score, but as discussed here at length, transfusion combined with saline/plasma infusion (to lower HT) and EPO (to raise retics) could beat that test. Even in 09/10, when the passport system was in effect, the same trick would work. Ashenden himself has published articles showing how the passport system could be beaten.

Of course. This is how Hb/HT values are manipulated, by adjusting the volume of the system. He's just saying there is an explanation for fluctuations in values, which of course is true. This is why it's so difficult to make a case using the passport.

This is very important, because it means that when you look at blood values like those shown in this link you are probably seeing the tip of the iceberg. That value of 43 right after the first rest day of the Tour might have been a 44-45 that was lowered with saline. Likewise, the retics value of 0.7 might have been a lower value pumped up with a little EPO. Same thing with the even higher HT and lower retics in the middle of June, when he might have undergone a pre-Tour transfusion.

No matter what you had to read out of the test results, Heier believe that they have no clout. The International Cycling Union (UCI), which has taken samples of Armstrong, has not expressed any suspicion in the wake of the Tour de France.

This seems to be correct. As I said in the OP, I think these values are only useful as corroborative evidence, not standalone proof of doping. Of course, there are other values we haven’t seen. But again, it is quite easy to beat the passport if you don’t get greedy. If you are willing to limit your increase in HT to 2-3 points, enough to stabilize it over the course of a GT, you can escape sanction. The final decision on passport data is made by a group of experts, and they are known to throw out many highly suspicious profiles—with values 99% above the baseline—because of the difficulty in ruling out some non-doping cause. As Heier says:

If you drink more than you sweat, the values ​​decrease, but if you do not compensate fully for the loss of fluid, they will rise.

Of course, this is why it's so difficult to make a case based on passport data alone. As always, only the really dumb and careless riders get caught.

Edit: Another possibility, of course, is an artificial oxygen carrier, such as HemAssist. The enormous advantage of this is that no manipulation of the measurable blood parameters is necessary.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Thanks for the links, not quite such a simple question then.

In the original Norwegian article, Heier appears to be starting from the assumption that a doped athlete would have a much higher hemoglobin concentration. Perhaps 16 g/dL instead of the 14 g/dL

As far as I can tell from the translation, he is arguing that there is no masking technique that could bring the measured hemoglobin concentration down to 14g/dL from at least 16 g/L. He basically says that neither using hydroxyethyl starch (HES), nor withdrawing blood would do the job. However, he doesn't talk about using plasma or saline infusion to drop the hemoglobin concentration. This method is the most discussed way to "dilute" the blood and mask a high hemoglobin concentration, so it seems most odd that he doesn't address the possibility.

The dilution required to drop hemoglobin concentration 2g/dL is less than 15%, or roughly 750ml for a person with 5L of blood. That volume is perfectly doable medically. As long as the test was done before the body had time to compensate e.g. by moving plasma out of the bloodstream for storage elsewhere, it should work. Plasma infusion in the shower while the testers wait should do it! But it may be that there are some constraints on this process that I'm not aware of, I'm an interested non-expert in this field.

There are other less technical clues though. Haier says he has been on Ventoux, and it is almost impossible to hang with such low hematocrit. Since LA did "hang" on Ventoux, this suggests his measured hematocrit and hemoglobin concentration didn't give an accurate picture of his total hemoglobin mass. In short, his low blood values don't match his performance. Perhaps the performance was a miraculous event inexplicable to science. :rolleyes:

So really, Haiers comments don't add much to Morkebergs. There are natural explanations for hemoglobin concentrations on the low side. There are natural explanations for hemoglobin concentrations increasing or staying stable during a grand tour (dehydration/****s). None of those explanations should allow you to be competitive on the bike though. The only known explanation that fits all the evidence is doping and masking. Because blood values fluctuate naturally, there isn't quite enough evidence to prove doping; after all there might be some other currently unknown explanation.....Somethong to do with unicorns perhaps.
 
Merckx index said:
The USADA letter claims that Armstrong’s blood values from 2009/10 are consistent with manipulation. This raises an obvious question: if they are so suspicious, why wasn’t he sanctioned, or at least flagged, before?

Snipped for brevity>

QUOTE]

Thank you for clearing this up as I was wondering who was responsible for the Bio-passport during 09-10. Even though I have always thought the UCI should have no role in anti-doping. The more I discover, the more critical it becomes that one of the outcomes of this investigation should be that the UCI will be removed compoletley from the picture.