Ashenden and omertà

[sniper]

Sara Errani disagrees. Ranking end 2011: 45. Ranking 2012: 7 (well almost)

And if the other top players were clean, which they are not, she would be ranked number 1.


But totally agree with Agrajag. Doping isn't that visible in tennis and the fans just want to see a good backhand. Us cycling fans want to see riders drive themselves in to the ground in the beautiful sport of cycling, and feel cheated by the doping that completely alters the reality and the level playing field. Don't think the doping alters the level playing field as much in tennis if everyone dopes(doesn't make it ok).

it wasn't. until the spanish armada came along.

edit: by the way, interesting stat on errani. It's rather upsetting (though hardly surprising) that her performances haven't been questioned in the media (let alone by the WTA), in spite of the Del Moral link.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

Yannick Noah caused a stir last year with this:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2011/11/19/la-potion-magique-par-yannick-noah_1605664_3242.html

 

[RownhamHill]

Nice comment, you can say they are two sides of the same coin, if the tests largely don't work then the volume of them is just as irrelavant as the test.

Ermmm, surely if the tests largely don't work, then a higher volume of them is absolutely critical to try and catch anyone. The volume of tests is only irrelevant if the tests don't work at all.

 

[RichWalk]

Ermmm, surely if the tests largely don't work, then a higher volume of them is absolutely critical to try and catch anyone. The volume of tests is only irrelevant if the tests don't work at all.

conversely, if the tests did work, the volume and financial outlay could be reduced while at the same time the incentive to dope increases, if only......

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Anyone who thinks that the distorting effect of doping on tennis would be mild is very naive indeed, or hasn't watched a match in a long time. Finesse players are almost extinct at the top in a sport dominated by speed, power and endurance.

 

[sniper]

Anyone who thinks that the distorting effect of doping on tennis would be mild is very naive indeed, or hasn't watched a match in a long time. Finesse players are almost extinct at the top in a sport dominated by speed, power and endurance.

+1
though federer is an exception of course.

Back in the 80s and 90s there was still scope for pure finesse players like Stefan Edberg to reach the top. Of course he doped, just like McEnroe and others did, but it was clearly less decisive at that point. A fragile guy like Edberg being nr. 1 in the world is unthinkable now. Just look at Gasquet, who for me is one of the most talented guys out there, but never seems fit and/or strong enough to really challenge the top guys. I assume in a non-doping field he would be at the top, and in fact he was the nr. 1 ranked in the youth categories, above nadal.

 

[zigmeister]

Good luck to Ashenden, I hope he isn't painted as a disgruntled utopian idealist.

The way he is on this PR, self-serving global tour now, too late for that. Utopian idealist, or somebody who wants the attention for himself apparently.

There is a payoff for every behavior you have. What is Ashenden's payoff for all of this? Certainly only a fool can actually believe in the Utopian dream of clean cycling, so it must be something else.

 

[Jack Aubrey]

Ashenden's opinion is just as that, his opinion - and a highly subjective and embellished one it is.

 

[RichWalk]

The way he is on this PR, self-serving global tour now, too late for that. Utopian idealist, or somebody who wants the attention for himself apparently.

There is a payoff for every behavior you have. What is Ashenden's payoff for all of this? Certainly only a fool can actually believe in the Utopian dream of clean cycling, so it must be something else.

Agree, i suspect he is making noises in line with landing some new role/potential new role if as we hope the UCI implodes or at least has its doping control influence removed and given to a purely independant body

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

would be at the top, and in fact he was the nr. 1 ranked in the youth categories, above nadal.

The history of all sports is full of promising juniors who don't make it at senior level, so to assume Gasquet would be top of anything as a senior is any circumstances is not really justifiable, I'd say. You could be right, but the odds are against it.

Interestingly, Gasquet's highest ever ranking came in 2007 after reaching the semis at Wimbledon. He was just 21 at the time, and if he could mix it with top guys at that age, then his decline since then would appear to be more than physical. He never seems to have recovered from losing to Murray at Wimbledon in 2008 after serving for the match in the third set.

 

[ToreBear]

I don't think people are pointing elsewhere to support the behavior, but rather say that this is not anyhow unique but a larger problem in professional sports and to really get somewhere we should dig deeper to the primary causes.

No, in my opinion cycling is unique. Thinking of this as something thats bigger than cycling is to deflect.

It doesn't matter how little percentage you gain from doping/cheating, especially if the risk of getting caught is almost nonexistent, if that is a decision maker of winning millions of price money and sponsorship deals. Sums around cycling are really pocket money comparing to eg. soccer and tennis players

In football you can't clone messi or ronaldo. If you put a team on dope they will run longer, they will not pass better, place themselves better, tackle better. You can't put a medium team on a Ferrari program and win the champions league.

In cycling you can.

I don't know anything at all about tennis.

ps. Football has signed up to the Wada code, so there is testing.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

If you put a team on dope they will run longer, they will not pass better, place themselves better, tackle better.

They won't improve their peak standards in respect of these items, but by experiencing less fatigue, they will be able to maintain standards much longer and will be less prone to making mistakes. Many games are decided by a tired player making a mistake in the closing stages, so doping will be effective. I would agree that it is going to be less effective than in a sport like cycling, where the main skill is delivering/utilising oxygen.

 

[ToreBear]

They won't improve their peak standards in respect of these items, but by experiencing less fatigue, they will be able to maintain standards much longer and will be less prone to making mistakes. Many games are decided by a tired player making a mistake in the closing stages, so doping will be effective. I would agree that it is going to be less effective than in a sport like cycling, where the main skill is delivering/utilising oxygen.

Yep there might be some benefits, but they are minor compared to cycling. Also if your team gets a doper, it affects the hole club, even worse if it's proven to be part of a system. Clubs can't just change their sponsor/name and have everyone involved be back at the top level within a year or two. Cycling can. A major part of football is the way fans support their clubs and their country. The cost involved with doping for all involved is much much higher, and the benefit is much much lower.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yep there might be some benefits, but they are minor compared to cycling.

The impact can be huge, though. League titles are often decided by a point or even goal difference. (And the same for relegation iisues.) Thus, one mistake can make or break a season.

Given the financial implications of staying in the top flight vs relegation or being in the Champions League vs the Europa League etc, a minor benefit performance-wise can translate to literally tens of millions of pound/euros/dollars. So it's no surprise that doping is strongly suspected.

 

[RownhamHill]

No, in my opinion cycling is unique. Thinking of this as something thats bigger than cycling is to deflect.




In football you can't clone messi or ronaldo. .

If you take one look at Ronaldo and think he's not on drugs then you must be mental.

 

[hrotha]

No, in my opinion cycling is unique. Thinking of this as something thats bigger than cycling is to deflect.




In football you can't clone messi or ronaldo. If you put a team on dope they will run longer, they will not pass better, place themselves better, tackle better. You can't put a medium team on a Ferrari program and win the champions league.

In cycling you can.

I don't know anything at all about tennis.

ps. Football has signed up to the Wada code, so there is testing.

The difference between cycling and other sports is that other sports never had a Festina case. Not because there wasn't anything to dig up, mind you (hello, teamwide doping at Juventus), but because the media didn't make a story out of it. Presumably because it was July and there was nothing bigger going on.

Once the media got the ball rolling, there was no turning back: it attracted more media attention, it made the fans more conscious of the problem, and it forced the UCI to deal with it. And so, cycling developed its current doping/antidoping image.

That's the only difference between cycling and other sports: media following of its scandals.

 

[_frost]

No, in my opinion cycling is unique. Thinking of this as something thats bigger than cycling is to deflect.

So you say that other sports do not have a doping problem or it doesn't matter? That it wouldn't help cycling at all if the whole matter of doping was understood better and discussed more openly?

In football you can't clone messi or ronaldo. If you put a team on dope they will run longer, they will not pass better, place themselves better, tackle better. You can't put a medium team on a Ferrari program and win the champions league.

You are badly limiting your point of view if you think only about EPO or endurance improving dope.

I don't know anything about football but I would somehow imagine that if you have a team full of 10 second 100m runners that can keep up that for 2 hours against "mere humans" then it really doesn't matter how skillful they are.

I don't know anything at all about tennis.

Do you know anything about swimming, skiing, weight lifting, power lifting, track&field?

 

[ToreBear]

The impact can be huge, though. League titles are often decided by a point or even goal difference. (And the same for relegation iisues.) Thus, one mistake can make or break a season.

Given the financial implications of staying in the top flight vs relegation or being in the Champions League vs the Europa League etc, a minor benefit performance-wise can translate to literally tens of millions of pound/euros/dollars. So it's no surprise that doping is strongly suspected.

Perhaps, but are there drugs that make you superhuman in key games? Don't think so. For doping to have an effect team wide doping from the pre season would be more sensible. But then if you are caught how much does the club loose? Use Man Utd as an example. How much money is tied to their brand? How much of that money could they loose if caught? How long will the club be known as dirty and suffer a reduced brand value?

What did the club gain? One season in the champions league vs the Europa league? Thats pocket change compared to what they make on their brand. Same with relegation. They might loose some money short term, but come back stronger.

The upside is not worth the potential downside.

Sure someone might be doped sometimes but I don't see that as comparable to cycling. Especially if you remember how many top football players there are compared to top cyclists.

If you take one look at Ronaldo and think he's not on drugs then you must be mental.

I thought he was mental? Drug withdrawal symptoms? Well anyway please tell me if you see a Ronaldo clone on any other team.

 

[ToreBear]

The difference between cycling and other sports is that other sports never had a Festina case. Not because there wasn't anything to dig up, mind you (hello, teamwide doping at Juventus), but because the media didn't make a story out of it. Presumably because it was July and there was nothing bigger going on.

Once the media got the ball rolling, there was no turning back: it attracted more media attention, it made the fans more conscious of the problem, and it forced the UCI to deal with it. And so, cycling developed its current doping/antidoping image.

That's the only difference between cycling and other sports: media following of its scandals.

I don't think any sport has had any scandal like Festina. TdF is the premier event in the cycling season. In 1998 there were police raids and arrests, entire teams with kilos of dope were captured. Is there any other sport were this has happened I am not aware of? Any drug raids at the FIFA world cup?

You are saying the media did'nt follow up stories, how often has this happened? Did no one write about the Juventus case? Football is much bigger than cycling, so I think there was plenty of media scruteny. Still the case came to nothing because there was no evidence. There was smoke, but no one could prove any fire.

I'm pretty sure the amount of press the juventus scandal got was pretty huge. Then again it doesn't really compare to Festina, since no one in the Juventus case got sentenced for anything by either CAS or the courts.

Newspaper write about the news, it's nothing personal. And I'm sure they would have written about some other story, unless Festina was the bigger story.

Interestingly France won the world cup for the first time, and on home soil in july 1998.

I think you are wrong if you think the media has taken a special interest in cycling scandals compared to other sports. The reason cycling is so connected to doping is that there are?/ have been so many dopers. In the juventus case there was apparently smoke without any proven fire, while in cycling there were so many fires that some journalists pretended they didn't exist.

 

[ToreBear]

So you say that other sports do not have a doping problem or it doesn't matter? That it wouldn't help cycling at all if the whole matter of doping was understood better and discussed more openly?

I'm saying before one starts to look at other sports one looks at cycling first. One should also accept that cycling has a much larger doping problem than all other sports.

You are badly limiting your point of view if you think only about EPO or endurance improving dope.

I don't know anything about football but I would somehow imagine that if you have a team full of 10 second 100m runners that can keep up that for 2 hours against "mere humans" then it really doesn't matter how skillful they are.

Endurance was an illustration to simpify the sentence and make the argument.

Football is very much about technique. 10 super sprinters would get beaten by just about everyone. They need to be able to dribble, pass, tackle, bring down the ball, shoot etc.




Do you know anything about swimming, skiing, weight lifting, power lifting, track&field?[/QUOTE]

I follow skiing a lot, but not the other sports.

 

[_frost]

I'm saying before one starts to look at other sports one looks at cycling first.

Every one is looking at cycling. This is a cycling forum after all.

One should also accept that cycling has a much larger doping problem than all other sports.

That would depend on the exact definition of "problem". I guess you don't know too many bodybuilders, weightlifters or powerlifters.

Endurance was an illustration to simpify the sentence and make the argument.

Football is very much about technique. 10 super sprinters would get beaten by just about everyone. They need to be able to dribble, pass, tackle, bring down the ball, shoot etc.

As I said I don't know about football, but you probably understand that was also for illustration purposes. If you forget about the limits of real life somewhere there is a threshold after which speed and endurance beats the skill and having very similar skill level, even minor improvement in strength, speed and endurance are payed off.

I follow skiing a lot, but not the other sports.

Luckily Norwegian skiers, contrary to Finnish dope suckers, are doing it all pure with just torsk og surkål

 

[ToreBear]

Every one is looking at cycling. This is a cycling forum after all.



That would depend on the exact definition of "problem". I guess you don't know too many bodybuilders, weightlifters or powerlifters.




As I said I don't know about football, but you probably understand that was also for illustration purposes. If you forget about the limits of real life somewhere there is a threshold after which speed and endurance beats the skill and having very similar skill level, even minor improvement in strength, speed and endurance are payed off.



Luckily Norwegian skiers, contrary to Finnish dope suckers, are doing it all pure with just torsk og surkål

I think the Finns have got their act together. Juha Lallukka was a dissapointment, but he was AFAIK working outside of the team using devious methods of Finnish skiings past.