Astana transfusion equipment "Criminal"

[Publicus]

Nobody is singling out Armstrong then, huh?

We don't have AC's blood values or anybody elses.

We have Armstrong's because he posted them this year to prove to the haters that he is clean. He took them down because someone noted that his TdF values were . . . um, suspicious.

On a non-troll related note, do they indicate where/when they found this stuff? I'd be interest to pinpoint the stage.

 

[CentralCaliBike]

Of course, another factor here is there is DNA and then there is DNA. You can get fragmentary DNA off anything and everywhere. Something that was thrown in a bag or left on the floor might not be very reliable. It seems if they had hard evidence then they would have produced it by now, so I am doubtful the DNA is of high quality enough to be useful in a court of law.

The more I think about it, the more this just looks like a rehash of the old story. They said they found IV equipment and other stuff with DNA on it when this story was first released a couple of months ago. I doubt anything will come of this.

I think we need to see the results (which will not happen anytime soon if history can predict the future), however, DNA can be found in several types of biological samples. In this case I would expect that the DNA to be identified as blood cell and there would be little room for excuses as to how it got there.

 

[frenchfry]

As python pointed out, this is a criminal investigation, not an anti-doping institution (WADA, AFLD) investigation. Therefore the rules are different.

Transfusions are not allowed in any case (anti-doping rules or criminal law) except for medical emergencies, and I don't believe defending a podium place at the TDF qualifies as a medical emergency.

The investigation is targeting Astana as a team, Contador and Armstrong are mentioned because they are the high profile riders for the team. Neither of them are singled out otherwise.

This should be interesting, but my bet is that the whole thing will fizzle out for lack of political will. Obviously the UCI will bring out the big guns to put a quick end to this.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Nobody is singling out Armstrong then, huh?

We don't have AC's blood values or anybody elses.

I'm quite happy to single out Armstrong and Bruyneel.
They've played, "catch me if you can", for years, with the French.
7 different DNA samples in syringes and 7 riders (less Lucky Levi) signed for his team.
It's more than just coincidence.

 

[Rex Hunter]

We have Armstrong's because he posted them this year to prove to the haters that he is clean. He took them down because someone noted that his TdF values were . . . um, suspicious.

Yes it was a no-win situation for him. No gain and only potential pain. Even his Giro results, that raised no questions at all, didn't stop people from making allegations, so it wasn't worth it. This has been covered in other threads.

On a non-troll related note, do they indicate where/when they found this stuff? I'd be interest to pinpoint the stage.

Thanks, this thread has enough trolling. I don't think they found it after a particular stage, they rummaged through the bags they collected from Astana that were supposed to be for medical waste, and then went over their hotel room like a scene from CSI.

No witch hunt then.

 

[blackcat]

As python pointed out, this is a criminal investigation, not an anti-doping institution (WADA, AFLD) investigation. Therefore the rules are different.

Transfusions are not allowed in any case (anti-doping rules or criminal law) except for medical emergencies, and I don't believe defending a podium place at the TDF qualifies as a medical emergency.

The investigation is targeting Astana as a team, Contador and Armstrong are mentioned because they are the high profile riders for the team. Neither of them are singled out otherwise.

This should be interesting, but my bet is that the whole thing will fizzle out for lack of political will. Obviously the UCI will bring out the big guns to put a quick end to this.

defending a podium place at the TDF is very definitely a medical emergency for StrongArm, how else do you think he could compete.

 

[Publicus]

Yes it was a no-win situation for him. No gain and only potential pain. Even his Giro results, that raised no questions at all, didn't stop people from making allegations, so it wasn't worth it. This has been covered in other threads.



Thanks, this thread has enough trolling. I don't think they found it after a particular stage, they rummaged through the bags they collected from Astana that were supposed to be for medical waste, and then went over their hotel room like a scene from CSI.

No witch hunt then.

The Giro results were what made the TdF results stand out. The whole transparency stunt (and really, that's what it was) is what I call a "self-inflicted wound."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well it seems....

DDSS, eh Sproket01?

Ok - Lemonds Iron injection was in 1989 - that was 20 years ago!

So what do the UCI in their Prohibited List for 2009(adopted from WADA) have to say about this...

M2. Chemical and Physical Limitations:
2. Intravenous infusions are prohibited except in the management of surgical procedures, medical emergencies or clinical investigations.

 

[RTMcFadden]

back to the point.

where does it say under wada restrictions that tranfusion bag use is illegal?

this is the stick in the point

we are not talking about injections.

Let's get a few things straight. First, the article uses the term "perfusion", which means infusion, not transfusion. In other words, they were IV bags, not blood bags.

Second, there is wording in the regs that says infusions are a violation unless........ So, while they are technically banned, they are not so much so.

Third, this is re-cycled information. The original story came out in Oct, if I remember correctly. Although, I don't recall them saying they have seven distinct DNA profiles.

Fourth, AFDL has their blood, so they should be able to do a match without the consent or assistance of the UCI or the riders.

 

[blackcat]

The Giro results were what made the TdF results stand out. The whole transparency stunt (and really, that's what it was) is what I call a "self-inflicted wound."

but StrongArm was still on a whole host of products at the Giro. They just are less obvious on the profile.

 

[Rex Hunter]

Transfusions are not allowed in any case (anti-doping rules or criminal law) except for medical emergencies, and I don't believe defending a podium place at the TDF qualifies as a medical emergency.

Yes but they're allowed to have those kits for the medical emergency (dehydration).

 

[Rex Hunter]

but StrongArm was still on a whole host of products at the Giro. They just are less obvious on the profile.

You see what I mean?

 

[Rex Hunter]

Let's get a few things straight. First, the article uses the term "perfusion", which means infusion, not transfusion. In other words, they were IV bags, not blood bags.

Second, there is wording in the regs that says infusions are a violation unless........ So, while they are technically banned, they are not so much so.

Third, this is re-cycled information. The original story came out in Oct, if I remember correctly. Although, I don't recall them saying they have seven distinct DNA profiles.

Fourth, AFDL has their blood, so they should be able to do a match without the consent or assistance of the UCI or the riders.

+ 1.

(Right, got to take the dog out and then do a work out so i can look all hunky for Christmas)

 

[poupou]

Fourth, AFDL has their blood, so they should be able to do a match without the consent or assistance of the UCI or the riders.

I do believe that blood was sent to Lausanne lab

 

[Biciclette Bianchi]

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Yeah, just like Puerto... Sadly, I'll guess that when all is said and done, nothing will have played out, except months or years of public recriminations and bluster. That just seems to be the way that these things go.

 

[blackcat]

You see what I mean?

you reckon StrongArm went forward while guys like Thomas Lovkvist and Thomas Rohregger went backwards. Riders getting stronger, is indicative.

 

[RTMcFadden]

I do believe that blood was sent to Lausanne lab

You may be right for the samples collected during the tour, but what about all of the other samples that they've taken over the past few years. What I don't understand is why they haven't profiled all riders from blood that was already drawn. Running the profiles isn't that complicated and should run about $1000 per sample. It's not like the profile is ever going to change. Once they have the profile, they're set. Whenever they get a sample of unknown origin, they run it against the library they created and if it matches, then it's a rider. If it doesn't, then it's not.

 

[Anonymous]

All i will say, is what ive said before, the 2010 tour could be the widest fought in years... (depending on something happening to AC)...

Those who said contador wasnt a cert to win the tour next year may be about to be proven correct..

my gut is though that this yet again will prove to be a storm from lequipe and the french as always.. the peptides will prove to be natural, things will get explained and nothing will happen..

my second gut says that this has all been planned by JB to stitch up AC

 

[red_flanders]

Here's the money quote as to where all this will stop:

The newspaper also claims that DNA testing on the seized Astana team's material revealed the presence of seven unique DNA fingerprints, but linking the evidence to individual riders would rely upon the UCI sharing its blood profile data with the French authorities.

I'm sure the UCI will be forthcoming, doing all it can do clear up this mess.

 

[poupou]

You may be right for the samples collected during the tour, but what about all of the other samples that they've taken over the past few years. What I don't understand is why they haven't profiled all riders from blood that was already drawn. Running the profiles isn't that complicated and should run about $1000 per sample. It's not like the profile is ever going to change. Once they have the profile, they're set. Whenever they get a sample of unknown origin, they run it against the library they created and if it matches, then it's a rider. If it doesn't, then it's not.

It's illegal to profile DNA without justice agreement. Now there is an official investigation, judge can ask to do theme for some people.

 

[blackcat]

Pat will work this out, make it all go away. You da man Paddy

 

[python]

all blood samples are stored in lausanne. all. whatever the procedure was involved:biopassport, antidoping, health. for over a decade lausanne is the only long term contractor to the uci for blood work including on-site (health) testing. that said, the french can legally claim 2008 tour samples as they were not taken under the uci auspices and the lausanne lab will furnish them regardless of the uci position. thus, the french theoretically have access to the dna samples of all riders including the hair samples they've taken and store in france.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

all blood samples are stored in lausanne. all. whatever the procedure was involved:biopassport, antidoping, health. for over a decade lausanne is the only long term contractor to the uci for blood work including on-site (health) testing. that said, the french can legally claim 2008 tour samples as they were not taken under the uci auspices and the lausanne lab will furnish them regardless of the uci position. thus, the french theoretically have access to the dna samples of all riders including the hair samples they've taken and store in france.

How many of the AStana riders at the TdF this year were at the TdF in 2008?

Susan

 

[zoeart]

How many of the AStana riders at the TdF this year were at the TdF in 2008?

Susan

Haimar w/Eukatel and Popo w/Silence.

 

[python]

How many of the AStana riders at the TdF this year were at the TdF in 2008?

Susan

you hit the nail on the head, susan. off the top of my head i can only think of popo and zubeldia. armstrong's dna as i said several times they also have. i believe they also have dna of several riders they tested ooc while they trained in france. there other ways to obtain the dna legally of all astana riders. they just need to want to get to the bottom of it.