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Bahati deliberately crashed out?

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Mar 18, 2009
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amerikaantje said:
I doubt much will come from USA Cycling...

As for Crits in the US vs. BE/NL.... Totally different games being played. In the states the speeds are much higher but the races are shorter. Euro's don't take anywhere near the risks through the corners. Plus, you will be hard pressed to find a sold criterium finish stateside.

Personally I didn't find that at all...however, you are very correct about risks in the corners.
 
Ferdinand Artichoke said:
If Bahati wasn't so keen to try and steal a wheel and slot himself onto the remains of the HealthNet train... have a look at the clip


Yes, but there are better ways to respond. At least ways other than blatently swerving into his wheel.

I'd probably given up my wheel and let the big black barstool in... but then I'm not getting paid to race my bike

+1 Probably why I'm not a good crit racer ;)
 
Apr 10, 2009
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Ferdinand Artichoke said:
If Bahati wasn't so keen to try and steal a wheel and slot himself onto the remains of the HealthNet train... have a look at the clip

The race winner's take on it in the post race interview was it was an ongoing 'fight'.... that's for position...
(explanation follows for shocked softkok forum members who probably never raced at above 80% of there max for more than the last 400m) it got nasty and the little guy lost it and pushed back too hard.

Imagine that big Bahati leaning on you when your screaming at 90% the whole time trying to do your job for your team... remember its at 2 to go.

I'd probably given up my wheel and let the big black barstool in... but then I'm not getting paid to race my bike

Do you know Rahsaan? I am just curious, as he is not that big. Tall maybe, but big, hardly. He hooked him, period. And yes, I have raced above 80% of my max for more than 400 yards with both Bahati and the race winner, Cantwell too. I understand fighting for position, this was not that, Cantwell was being politically correct in his answer.
 
Ferdinand Artichoke said:
If Bahati wasn't so keen to try and steal a wheel and slot himself onto the remains of the HealthNet train... have a look at the clip

The race winner's take on it in the post race interview was it was an ongoing 'fight'.... that's for position...
(explanation follows for shocked softkok forum members who probably never raced at above 80% of there max for more than the last 400m) it got nasty and the little guy lost it and pushed back too hard.

Imagine that big Bahati leaning on you when your screaming at 90% the whole time trying to do your job for your team... remember its at 2 to go.

I'd probably given up my wheel and let the big black barstool in... but then I'm not getting paid to race my bike

Ferdinand, I've raced around 70 crits myself, been caught up in 5 or 6 crashes, and yes of course have had many battles for wheels with much banging of elbows, shoulder banging, and leaning hard into other riders.

All of these things happen in criterium racing and are certainly part of the game. But none of these things involve deliberately crashing out a competitor, especially with a blatant swerve to chop the front wheel.

I'm sorry but an appeal to toughness just does not work here my friend. Crashing out a competitor is simply NOT a part of bicycle racing. It's against the rules, it's morally wrong, and furthermore it's no way to "win" a battle for a wheel with any shred of dignity or honor. It ain't right.
 
Sep 18, 2009
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slowoldman said:
Do you know Rahsaan? I am just curious, as he is not that big. Tall maybe, but big, hardly. He hooked him, period. And yes, I have raced above 80% of my max for more than 400 yards with both Bahati and the race winner, Cantwell too. I understand fighting for position, this was not that, Cantwell was being politically correct in his answer.

I'm just watchin' tv... Perhaps no MrT, but Mr Bahati is much bigger than the guy who took him out...

I'm not saying it was an ok thing to do but there was universal one-sided condemnation with utter incomprehension of what the situation was likely to be and some of the evidence - ie Cantwell's comments.

still race or are you a fat boy now?
 
Sep 18, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
I'm sorry but an appeal to toughness just does not work here my friend. Crashing out a competitor is simply NOT a part of bicycle racing. It's against the rules, it's morally wrong, and furthermore it's no way to "win" a battle for a wheel with any shred of dignity or honor. It ain't right.

so tell me Obama,
What do you suppose lead up to the incident?

oh, you don't know! it was not seen... but there is evidence that there was an ongoing fight amongst a bunch of hyped, adrenalysed racers

but still you support a whole thread joining in to slag one guy.

I was just trying to make the point

BTW 70 crits aint ****e- 2 and a half years- pecker
 
Ferdinand Artichoke said:
so tell me Obama,
What do you suppose lead up to the incident?

oh, you don't know! it was not seen... but there is evidence that there was an ongoing fight amongst a bunch of hyped, adrenalysed racers

but still you support a whole thread joining in to slag one guy.

I was just trying to make the point

BTW 70 crits aint ****e- 2 and a half years- pecker

Well I tried to respond nicely but now I see that you are simply trolling.

Anyway, the point is that it doesn't matter what lead up to the incident; nothing justifies it.
 
Apr 10, 2009
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Ferdinand Artichoke said:
I'm just watchin' tv... Perhaps no MrT, but Mr Bahati is much bigger than the guy who took him out...

I'm not saying it was an ok thing to do but there was universal one-sided condemnation with utter incomprehension of what the situation was likely to be and some of the evidence - ie Cantwell's comments.

still race or are you a fat boy now?

I still race, never been slim climber type.....:D
 
Sep 18, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
Ferdinand, I've raced around 70 crits myself, been caught up in 5 or 6 crashes,

so you crash once in every 11 or 12 starts!!! You should be banned to keep us safe!

hilarious that you think you have an opinion worth listening to.

Please notify of any plans you have to race outside of Ohio
 
Apr 10, 2009
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ImmaculateKadence said:
Was that him? I've never heard anything that would indicate anything otherwise, but why were they jawing at him? Bahati and two other said something while he was limping off the road.

I think he just happened to be the representative of UHC still there. Rahsaan and Matt were just venting at him for what Keough did, not saying it is right, just happens. Eric is a good guy, although he has been known to fight for position too. ;)
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Lots of valid points here. Yes hooking somebody and giving them a pavement scrub is always in bad taste. Bahati acting crazy after hitting the deck at 40mph and tossing his Oakleys was bad, but you do lots of bad things with a 180 heart rate and lots of anger and andreniline. The little Healthnet guy was leaning way too hard on Bahati and he just slipped off of whatever part of his body he was leaning on and made what looked like a hard right turn right in front of him. Sh-it happens. The difference between the really good and good US sprinters is that the guy who is really good weasels his way into the draft you thought you had, Bahati tried and failed, but he has some pretty good results using this same, getting a lead out from somebody else's team technique. He should get a small fine and have 2 tweet an apology or 2 for his hyper aggressive behavior. He should also be given a very low fine seeing as how he was trying to win intribute of his dead team mate. watching the video a few times you can see the Healthnet guy has not played a lot of MTN bike polo or went arm on arm at a traffic light to balance on a fellow rider. 1 thing for sure he squirted some pee in his pants after staying up in a situation where he should have been ground into the pavement. To the ***-hole who wrote big black bar stool wtf? Bahati should always be given the benefit because his lead out man is the ever sorry Landis
 
Sep 18, 2009
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fatandfast said:
To the ***-hole who wrote big black bar stool wtf? Bahati should always be given the benefit because his lead out man is the ever sorry Landis

yeah that was me....sorry. I have deleted that bit- I didn't mean to sound racist...I was just trying to paint a picture of desperation from the perspective of the crash causer guy... y'know, defence attorney style.

I don't get the Landis reference though
 
Jul 14, 2009
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Ferdinand Artichoke said:
yeah that was me....sorry. I have deleted that bit- I didn't mean to sound racist...I was just trying to paint a picture of desperation from the perspective of the crash causer guy... y'know, defence attorney style.

I don't get the Landis reference though

I guess you get a free pass on the barstool thing. Your other ref to crashing once out of every 10 outing is misplaced. When you are in the crunch you crash. Guys with helmet cams and toothy smiles roll in after the action is over. If you have won races in the US chance are you have crashed a few times it just comes with 100+ guys curb to curb racing for a pair of socks,waterbottle or a powerbar. Sprinting is dangerous. pack fill and finishers are often amazed at how often guys crash as if it had to do with bike handling. When you get people at their limit of speed, heart rate,cadence. Crashing is a minor inconvenience to sprinters/winners of Us races. ways to many guys with similar ability in really short races. races that have lots of selection (really big steep climb,hairpin turns,log distance ect) don't have leftovers sprinting for a prize they are weeded out by then. The harder the race the less crashes you have.@99% of most US races are designed to be a bloodbath.I crashed and won all the time in the US the races are shaped like a big swarm of bees. Races in Belgium,Germany and the Netherlands are like a single file line of ants. Single file is WAY harder and much safer.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Ferdinand Artichoke said:
ya gotta admit that clip looked fast... maybe your races were slower than that one

Doubt it bud...that was at the end of the race...should be fast...Most of the races I did in Europe (Netherlands, Belgium) were stretched out single file from the gun! I'm not saying US crits are not fast..but they are not nearly as fast as the ones in BENELUX!
 
Mar 18, 2009
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fatandfast said:
I guess you get a free pass on the barstool thing. Your other ref to crashing once out of every 10 outing is misplaced. When you are in the crunch you crash. Guys with helmet cams and toothy smiles roll in after the action is over. If you have won races in the US chance are you have crashed a few times it just comes with 100+ guys curb to curb racing for a pair of socks,waterbottle or a powerbar. Sprinting is dangerous. pack fill and finishers are often amazed at how often guys crash as if it had to do with bike handling. When you get people at their limit of speed, heart rate,cadence. Crashing is a minor inconvenience to sprinters/winners of Us races. ways to many guys with similar ability in really short races. races that have lots of selection (really big steep climb,hairpin turns,log distance ect) don't have leftovers sprinting for a prize they are weeded out by then. The harder the race the less crashes you have.@99% of most US races are designed to be a bloodbath.I crashed and won all the time in the US the races are shaped like a big swarm of bees. Races in Belgium,Germany and the Netherlands are like a single file line of ants. Single file is WAY harder and much safer.

Excellent points Fast...said it perfectly!
 
Oct 29, 2009
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slowoldman said:
I think he just happened to be the representative of UHC still there. Rahsaan and Matt were just venting at him for what Keough did, not saying it is right, just happens. Eric is a good guy, although he has been known to fight for position too. ;)

I figured that was it. They moved on after a few words, so I doubt they were upset with him; he was just in the wrong jersey. I'll never fault a guy fighting for position but to deliberately crash a guy like that is beyond reprehensible. As Keough was exiting the crash, he appeared to look back for a second; it's like he was making sure Bahati went down.
 
Sep 18, 2009
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fatandfast said:
If you have won races in the US chance are you have crashed a few times it just comes with 100+ guys curb to curb racing for a pair of socks,waterbottle or a powerbar.
funny


fatandfast said:
@99% of most US races are designed to be a bloodbath.I crashed and won all the time in the US
didn't anyone ever tell you that exaggeration kills your cred.

Funnily enough, in my second to last race, an Aussie who raced in the states for ColavitaSuttor last year, crashed out from the break of 3 leading the race- he got back on and retained 3rd.. impressive recovery but it was a hell kooky crash. He tried attacking us in a corner as we were passing another grade on the circuit

maybe he bought back some poor habits from you guys!
 
Sep 8, 2009
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Saw the video....

e2xem.jpg


HE THREW HIS SUNGLASSES ^_^ d
 
Jun 19, 2009
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fatandfast said:
I guess you get a free pass on the barstool thing. Your other ref to crashing once out of every 10 outing is misplaced. When you are in the crunch you crash. Guys with helmet cams and toothy smiles roll in after the action is over. If you have won races in the US chance are you have crashed a few times it just comes with 100+ guys curb to curb racing for a pair of socks,waterbottle or a powerbar. Sprinting is dangerous. pack fill and finishers are often amazed at how often guys crash as if it had to do with bike handling. When you get people at their limit of speed, heart rate,cadence. Crashing is a minor inconvenience to sprinters/winners of Us races. ways to many guys with similar ability in really short races. races that have lots of selection (really big steep climb,hairpin turns,log distance ect) don't have leftovers sprinting for a prize they are weeded out by then. The harder the race the less crashes you have.@99% of most US races are designed to be a bloodbath.I crashed and won all the time in the US the races are shaped like a big swarm of bees. Races in Belgium,Germany and the Netherlands are like a single file line of ants. Single file is WAY harder and much safer.

You're right about the swarming thing. It comes from too many dedicated "sprinters" mingling with riders just trying to survive. This happens more in the early season because of the disparity in fitness, I guess. I think faster, strung out races are easier because you can use less energy to move up. Chopping corners, jacking the breaks and reaccelerating is harder. You can always tell the difference between a good track rider in a crit and a chunky-bully rider. The bully wants to move up without working.
 
I think you have to take into account the course at Dana Point. The last corner (turn 6) is actually pretty narrow and leads into a VERY short finishing straight (+/- 150 meters). They only use half of Del Prado so you only have the right side of the street to make a right turn (effectively maybe 10 meters of road going in to the turn) so there is lots of hard braking as well.

Lining it out from turn 5 isn't in everyone's best interest as you don't have enough time from the corner to the line to move up if you've got it floored (you aren't going to pick up 2 or 3 bike lengths if you're already at 60 kph).

Even though the race is only 3 years old, a pattern is already emerging wherein you'll see alot of monkey business and blocking prior to and coming through that final turn. I think there is a level of panic that sets in when teams don't have their fast guys positioned far enough up on that last lap.

I think slowoldman will remember three years ago when Thurlow actually sat up going into that last corner to spring DeMarchi (?) free.

4521817710_0015e42b38_b.jpg
 
Having raced crits in both places I have to say the crits in NL are not actually faster, but they are harder. The courses in NL are always tighter and more technical...the average speeds are actually a little lower...though still harder. The crits in the US are fast fast fast...but they often have fairly wide corners and are not so technical. You can see the crits that are technical in the states often end up looking a little more Dutch.

Dutch crits are more fun...the morons racing crits in the states are a danger to everyone around them (just a minority...but enough).

I would add that, Dutch riders don't necessarily rock US crits...it's a different style and takes time to adapt to (on both sides).


Mongol_Waaijer said:
Why are US crits so dangerous? Is the speed not always high enough to line the bunch out?

Here in NL the speed is so high from the off it's single file 95% of the race, so the only real chance of a crash is overcooking a corner, the sprint finish, or drunken supporters crossing the street (I've seen it happen)

The classics on the other hand are absolute lunacy. 180 guys all trying to ride at the front all the time on a road as wide as a car in a force 5 sidewind etc. constant braking and panic....

I used to like crits as a break from the nervousness of RR's.
 
Apr 10, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
I think you have to take into account the course at Dana Point. The last corner (turn 6) is actually pretty narrow and leads into a VERY short finishing straight (+/- 150 meters). They only use half of Del Prado so you only have the right side of the street to make a right turn (effectively maybe 10 meters of road going in to the turn) so there is lots of hard braking as well.

Lining it out from turn 5 isn't in everyone's best interest as you don't have enough time from the corner to the line to move up if you've got it floored (you aren't going to pick up 2 or 3 bike lengths is you're already at 60 kph).

Even though the race is only 3 years old, a pattern is already emerging wherein you'll see alot of monkey business and blocking prior to and coming through that final turn. I think there is a level of panic that sets in when teams don't have their fast guys positioned far enough up on that last lap.

I think slowoldman will remember three years ago when Thurlow actually sat up going into that last corner to spring DeMarchi (?) free.

4521817710_0015e42b38_b.jpg

Good points Mac. And yes, I do remember when that happened with Thurlow and DeMarchi. Did you do the race the inaugural year when we used the alley between Amber and Violet? That was FUN. Dana has always been a course to get to the front and hold your position. Corner 6 is always tough for the final few laps, especially so this year as there was a headwind all the way down Del Prado, so it caused some bunching through that last corner.