Bahati deliberately crashed out?

[MacRoadie]

Good points Mac. And yes, I do remember when that happened with Thurlow and DeMarchi. Did you do the race the inaugural year when we used the alley between Amber and Violet? That was FUN. Dana has always been a course to get to the front and hold your position. Corner 6 is always tough for the final few laps, especially so this year as there was a head wind all the way down Del Prado, so it caused some bunching through that last corner.

Yes! That alley was NASTY!

 

[this_is_edie]

If Bahati wasn't so keen to try and steal a wheel and slot himself onto the remains of the HealthNet train... have a look at the clip

The race winner's take on it in the post race interview was it was an ongoing 'fight'.... that's for position...(explanation follows for shocked softkok forum members who probably never raced at above 80% of there max for more than the last 400m) it got nasty and the little guy lost it and pushed back too hard.

Imagine that big Bahati leaning on you when your screaming at 90% the whole time trying to do your job for your team... remember its at 2 to go.

I'd probably given up my wheel and let the big bloke? in... but then I'm not getting paid to race my bike

Interestingly one rider that was injured in the crash also names Bahati as a problem.

“Bahati was fighting big time,” Van Uden said. “I think he expected everyone to just give him the win for free because of what had happened with his teammate. But everyone’s still there to win the race, and no one was going to back down. Then he egged on a fight with one of the United Health guys, and it ended pretty bad for a lot of guys, including myself; ruined his own race as well.”

What Keough did was uncalled for but I have a hard time believing that he wanted to crash Bahati intentionally.

The post-race quotes from many riders do seem to say that Bahati was out of control at the race.

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

opinion time

http://www.insidecyclingtv.com/videos/129/dana-point-grand-prix

Look at about 1:28. If getting caught for DHEA is worth a two year ban, how long should this be worth? Ban Keough.

Considering the discussion, would you still ban the guy?


BTW that video shows many, many 'racers' hitting those fast cornerson the hoods!? unbelievabley kooky & beggin' for a prang...
That includes Bahati at one point... though to be fair it looks like he was in the hooks when he got taken out by that little guy

 

[kurtinsc]

Considering the discussion, would you still ban the guy?


BTW that video shows many, many 'racers' hitting those fast cornerson the hoods!? unbelievabley kooky & beggin' for a prang...
That includes Bahati at one point... though to be fair it looks like he was in the hooks when he got taken out by that little guy

Yes... I'd ban him.

I understand it's a situation like in many sports where the guy who throws the first punch gets away with it, but the guy who throws the second gets punished. I understand Bahati might have been doing dangerous things as well.

But you can't intentionally cause a crash in my mind. If that just gets "forgiven"... it' sets a really bad precedent in my eyes.

 

[Black-Balled]

I don't think the intent was there, to take Bahati out.

Just 2 guys who refused to yeild. Something's got to give.

 

[Boeing]

These things tend to take care of themselves, if you know what I mean...

the unwritten rule of any peloton. yup

 

[joe_papp]

I see intent.

I don't think the intent was there, to take Bahati out...

Really? Wow. Because I see something very different than what you see.

 

[Black-Balled]

Really? Wow. Because I see something very different than what you see.

Really...from 3k mi away too! I got powers like that 'coz I am a Libra- you can trust my decision.


But really, are you referring to the footage around 1:24? I don't find that any less inconclusive than other vids I have watched.

With all due respect to you, Joe, I am holding my position. I believe they were both at fault and that Bahati got the gravity end of it.

 

[joe_papp]

Really...from 3k mi away too! I got powers like that 'coz I am a Libra- you can trust my decision.


But really, are you referring to the footage around 1:24? I don't find that any less inconclusive than other vids I have watched.

With all due respect to you, Joe, I am holding my position. I believe they were both at fault and that Bahati got the gravity end of it.

I respect your opinion and won't try to change it. But saying they're both at fault assumes that it was either an accident, or that Bahati was trying to knock-down Keough, while Keough was trying to crash Bahati (and at least one of Keough's own teammates, along with 10 other riders)! Unless someone shows that Bahati rode himself into the back of Keough's wheel (example - could be anything) and knocked himself down (while Keough was not making physical contact w/ R.B. or bike-to-bike or body to bike), then it still seems to me that the cause of the crash was a combination of Keough's using his body to oppose the forward movement of Bahati, while also possibly deviating from his line, cutting sharply to the right or otherwise generating an impulse in that direction to destabilize Bahati (by sweeping his wheel? applying a force to Bahati's bars?) and cause him to lose control and crash.

I'm not saying that what the sprinters who were there reported isn't true - that there was some argy-bargy and sustained physical contact (however, without the intent to cause a crash) during the final 15 laps, but Keough has the misfortune to be caught on tape engaging in very questionable riding immediately before Bahati went down - so much so that he appears (to me, and others) to cause the crash.

Only Keough can speak to his motivation, just as Bahati has claimed that he was an innocent victim of that particular incident...and so far he hasn't issued a formal statement, has he?

I'm not even overly-fond of Bahati...I just think that it's very likely that Keough couldn't defend the position against the other rider's aggressive but legal challenges, and had to resort to an act that is not justifiable: responding with more force or intensity than the other guy and the intent to terminate his race by knocking him down, w/o regard to the safety of the other 100+ riders who were BEHIND HIM...like I said, if Bahati overlapped J.K.'s rear wheel, or was pushed into him and fell, ok that's an accident. But to me it seems that J.K. intentionally knocked-down Bahati and put dozens of other riders at risk for serious injury or even death - when he could have surrendered the position or continued responding with an equal level of force and not escalated.

And for the record, Bahati throwing his glasses back into the field was just as reckless and vicious as Keough's knocking him down - and they should both be suspended.

Quick, final story: in 1994, during an NCL race in Pittsburgh in which I was competing, my teammate Graeme Miller was brought down by a rider on one of the two opposing teams. So on the next lap, Graeme - who had procured a wooden broom from a street sweeper - proceeded to attempt to "sweep" his tormentor off of his bike and out of the race! The police, who were oblivious to the crash the lap before, simply saw a "madman" swinging a broom at the bike racers and tackled him and arrested him! LOL. Classic NCL... (Chris Horner competed that day, and the race was telecast on ESPN2).

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

edited by mod

 

[progressor]

edited by mod

Damn You're all class dude. As I don't respect you're opinion can I abuse the snot out of you as well?

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

sure!

edited by mod; rambling foolishness.

 

[Anonymous]

sure, What for though?

being a troll is all ya got on me.

I meant what I said- I've been caned by half arsed drug cheats on enough occasions to have enough resentments to lash out at guys like this.

Sure, it aint pretty, but it pales into insignificance compared to what guys like this prik have done.

Why exactly would anyone wanna heed this guy?
Tell me

You are absolutely right, you are truly not worth the effort. Good to see you are so self actualized! Keep up the good work twinkles!

 

[progressor]

sure, What for though?

being a troll is all ya got on me.

I meant what I said- I've been caned by half arsed drug cheats on enough occasions to have enough resentments to lash out at guys like this.

Sure, it aint pretty, but it pales into insignificance compared to what guys like this prik have done.

Why exactly would anyone wanna heed this guy?
Tell me

It's an opinion on a racing incident, not related to1/2 the sh!t you brought into it. Maybe you've got some points - but you're going over the top.

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

It's an opinion on a racing incident, not related to1/2 the sh!t you brought into it. Maybe you've got some points - but you're going over the top.

What?
You got time for the Smear?

 

[Anonymous]

What?
You got time for the Smear?

No, he was making time for a douchebag. He didn't address Joe at all.

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

No, he was making time for a douchebag. He didn't address Joe at all.

ha ha hah!

you're good Cincinatti...

 

[Anonymous]

ha ha hah!

you're good Cincinatti...

Thanks Twinkles!

 

[Anonymous]

ha ha hah!

you're good Cincinatti...

Hey, I really enjoy your "I am an 'in the know' poser" persona. I would really like it if you put more "in the hooks" kind of references in all of your posts. It really makes it seem like you might be something more than some loser douchbag Fred who can talk the talk...even though it is painfully obvious you are not. Just a tip.

 

[Black-Balled]

...then it still seems to me that the cause of the crash was a combination of Keough's using his body to oppose the forward movement of Bahati, ...

Yup. I'd rather do the lean against Keough then Bahati every day of the week. I get the feeling Bahati puts up a bit more resistance.

IMO, Keough tried to give a little more that he could handle and lost control. Bahati might have let him lean too far, but he didn't emerge from it upright. Keough did and that looks bad admittedly.

The f-articoke is a POS.

 

[fatandfast]

Papp I didn't know you did NCL. Did you ever meet Franco Harris? I always thought Miller looked like Russel Crowe He was a very well liked guy around S.Cal

 

[Big GMaC]

You are absolutely right, you are truly not worth the effort. Good to see you are so self actualized! Keep up the good work twinkles!

are you agreeing with progressor? because this thread is being archived

as far as the crash goes it does look very intentional to me (criterium layman) and I have appreciated Joe's perspective as an ex-racer.

 

[Hugh Januss]

A former masters teammate of mine who worked with the Mercury team once told me one of his main jobs was keeping Rashan from getting the crap beat out of him in the parking lot after the stuff he pulled in races.
It is hard to tell from the video because we can't see enough of what happened before Keough's right hand turn to tell who is to blame. It looks like Keough tried to lean on Bahati and Bahati wasn't there which caused K. to loose his balance. Did Bahati pull the rug out? At the time K. swerved he was almost 1/2 a bike length up on Rashan, so I think what might have happened was this. Rashan and Keough were banging for position and Keough held him off, Rashan figuring there is still time, started to think about plan B. and drifted back just a little which caused Keough to loose track of where he was enough that when he went to lean back into Bahati again he lost his balance then swerved to regain it right into Rashan's front wheel. Bad bike handling and lack of attention yes. Deliberate? I don't think so.
While I'm here I'd like to point out that in this Artichoke guy we have found something extremely rare on our forum, someone who can unite fanboys and haters. Granted it is only a union to hate one person in common, but hey it's a start. So thanks to him for being a unifying force.

 

[Anonymous]

are you agreeing with progressor? because this thread is being archived

as far as the crash goes it does look very intentional to me (criterium layman) and I have appreciated Joe's perspective as an ex-racer.

Yea, I thought about that too, but hey, even a stopped clock is right twice each day...or once in Europe.

 

[MacRoadie]

Quick, final story: in 1994, during an NCL race in Pittsburgh in which I was competing, my teammate Graeme Miller was brought down by a rider on one of the two opposing teams. So on the next lap, Graeme - who had procured a wooden broom from a street sweeper - proceeded to attempt to "sweep" his tormentor off of his bike and out of the race! The police, who were oblivious to the crash the lap before, simply saw a "madman" swinging a broom at the bike racers and tackled him and arrested him! LOL. Classic NCL... (Chris Horner competed that day, and the race was telecast on ESPN2).

Everyone's gotta get their Gaggioli on once in awhile...


And, I agree that it looks like Keough went to lean on a shoulder that wasn't there anymore, lost balance, and swerved across Bahati's line. If you're gonna put someone down, there are easier, less obvious ways to do it that don't put you in danger too. Bad riding nonetheless and still his fault.