Teams & Riders Bahrain

[Panda Claws]

I find it pretty far-fetched to simply assume that Mohoric had to have known about LA's gesture. And you are never going to get a good answer for it. I can say I am a cycling fan and about Mohoric's age and did not associate the gesture with LA at all. Especially since that gesture nowadays get used in many other sports as well as a sort of 'silence to the haters/internet trolls/etc.' . Especially in football I've seen it used several times.
But then someone else will run along saying they are as young as Evenepoel and distinctly remember LA's gesture.

We really cannot know. I think it is very plausible that Mohoric didn't see that gesture or remember it. I also think it is very plausible that Mohoric did not care at all about watching any documentaries about LA, let alone read books about him. Especially coming from a non-cycling obsessed country like Slovenia where these books likely were not distributed in large numbers or even translated. And LA in general being a much bigger deal in the Anglosphere than in other countries.
Lastly, I would not be surprised if the average pro cyclist is not nearly as much of a cycling nerd as the people on this forum. Sure they would have watched it as kids but once it becomes your day job I wonder if you are going to want to watch documentaries of it during your time off the bike.

More than enough plausible deniability.

 

[Ripper]

I find it pretty far-fetched to simply assume that Mohoric had to have known about LA's gesture. And you are never going to get a good answer for it. I can say I am a cycling fan and about Mohoric's age and did not associate the gesture with LA at all. Especially since that gesture nowadays get used in many other sports as well as a sort of 'silence to the haters/internet trolls/etc.' . Especially in football I've seen it used several times.
But then someone else will run along saying they are as young as Evenepoel and distinctly remember LA's gesture.

We really cannot know. I think it is very plausible that Mohoric didn't see that gesture or remember it. I also think it is very plausible that Mohoric did not care at all about watching any documentaries about LA, let alone read books about him. Especially coming from a non-cycling obsessed country like Slovenia where these books likely were not distributed in large numbers or even translated. And LA in general being a much bigger deal in the Anglosphere than in other countries.
Lastly, I would not be surprised if the average pro cyclist is not nearly as much of a cycling nerd as the people on this forum. Sure they would have watched it as kids but once it becomes your day job I wonder if you are going to want to watch documentaries of it during your time off the bike.

More than enough plausible deniability.

As will-10 said

Forget Lance for a second. It's a dumb gesture to make when your team is under investigation.

 

[burning]

Good points. The UCI and ASO also appear to be very tight now, and the UCI also has some very interesting political-financial interests.

The dictator, the oligarch and the UCI president

When politics, business and sport collide: the strange story of international cycling's dance with one of the world's most notorious dictators.

cyclingtips.com

This article was an amazing read, thanks for sharing it.

I wonder whether the Bahrain raid was partly coordinated due to the internal frictions between certain teams and people in UCI.

 

[Jumbot]

It's completely different now, riders might not even have a hero. Pogacar was asked if there's any riders that inspired him growing up. His answer "I don't really know or have any, but I take inspiration from myself when on the bike".

Hmm, in a video of his interview in 2019 where he introduces himself in more detail, while he was a young neopro, he mentions that his idols were, yeah you've guessed it, Mr. Lance and I don't remember the other one ( Contador I think ).
But I guess now as a big boy with people throwing suspicion at him, it's better not to say things like that

 

[Nick2413]

I find it pretty far-fetched to simply assume that Mohoric had to have known about LA's gesture. And you are never going to get a good answer for it. I can say I am a cycling fan and about Mohoric's age and did not associate the gesture with LA at all. Especially since that gesture nowadays get used in many other sports as well as a sort of 'silence to the haters/internet trolls/etc.' . Especially in football I've seen it used several times.
But then someone else will run along saying they are as young as Evenepoel and distinctly remember LA's gesture.

We really cannot know. I think it is very plausible that Mohoric didn't see that gesture or remember it. I also think it is very plausible that Mohoric did not care at all about watching any documentaries about LA, let alone read books about him. Especially coming from a non-cycling obsessed country like Slovenia where these books likely were not distributed in large numbers or even translated. And LA in general being a much bigger deal in the Anglosphere than in other countries.
Lastly, I would not be surprised if the average pro cyclist is not nearly as much of a cycling nerd as the people on this forum. Sure they would have watched it as kids but once it becomes your day job I wonder if you are going to want to watch documentaries of it during your time off the bike.

More than enough plausible deniability.

Reasonable but what exactly is the gesture supposed to mean regardless of Armstrong or not? Seems like a straightforward admission of doping with a middle finger raised high in the air. The whole silencing the haters idea doesn’t really make sense.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

are we aware that Mohoric was 10 when Lance did that gesture, and pro cyclist are not spending their time watching gifs of Lance on internet?
I mean, ok, I get it, but he has no *** clue Lance did the same gesture
they live in their own zone, sleep train eat and repeat, and focus and ride the races. we can´t look at them from the outside thinking pro cyclist see it and get it as we do

If we assume that Mohoric wasn't aware of the history of the gesture, does that somehow improve things? He's not even remotely close to the level you need to be at as a rider and as a marketable product to do able to something like that without drawing too much of the wrong attention.

Lance was an unstoppable force who could taunt the media and his enemies in the peloton, Mohoric is just a decent time trialist and occasional breakaway artist on a team that's happened to up its level this season. It's as if he wants to mysteriously disappear from the race program for a while or end up like most of DSM has this season.

 

[F_Cance]

I have a hard time believing that any pro road cyclist has never seen or heard of the Lance gesture. Doesn't even matter how old Mohoric was back then, i also was too young back then and there is no need to have witnessed it live.

No idea why all the slovenians right now are portrayed as some naive boys just wanting to have fun. Sure, some people want to defend them, but imo this argument feels more like an insult to their intellect.

 

[macbindle]

This article was an amazing read, thanks for sharing it.

I wonder whether the Bahrain raid was partly coordinated due to the internal frictions between certain teams and people in UCI.

The very last thing the UCI wants is doping controversies

 

[samhocking]

Hmm, in a video of his interview in 2019 where he introduces himself in more detail, while he was a young neopro, he mentions that his idols were, yeah you've guessed it, Mr. Lance and I don't remember the other one ( Contador I think ).
But I guess now as a big boy with people throwing suspicion at him, it's better not to say things like that

The MET interview I watched was just last month. Maybe he's realised idolising Armstrong & Contador isn't so good for his image, so now he says he never had any idols growing up.

View: https://youtu.be/7LvnDPSTLUg?t=139

 

[Pirazziattacks]

I have a hard time believing that any pro road cyclist has never seen or heard of the Lance gesture. Doesn't even matter how old Mohoric was back then, i also was too young back then and there is no need to have witnessed it live.

No idea why all the slovenians right now are portrayed as some naive boys just wanting to have fun. Sure, some people want to defend them, but imo this argument feels more like an insult to their intellect.

I think it's the boyish looks. Wout, Primoz, and Tadej are all nice boys who like to ride bike uwu
It worked pretty well for Andy, although I can't understand why the likes of Bardet and Bernal don't get the same treatment outside their home countries.

 

[Skalman]

Really hope they find something so all this stuff and their ridiculous results gets properly examined and aired so we all can get an explanation for the sudden performance increase.

 

[Ripper]

This article was an amazing read, thanks for sharing it.

I wonder whether the Bahrain raid was partly coordinated due to the internal frictions between certain teams and people in UCI.

I think the raid occurred because it did not involve the UCI.

Who knows where the"tip off" might have come from? Certainly other teams are plausible ... we did hear some complaining before the tour!

 

[OldCranky]

Reasonable but what exactly is the gesture supposed to mean regardless of Armstrong or not? Seems like a straightforward admission of doping with a middle finger raised high in the air. The whole silencing the haters idea doesn’t really make sense.

What? Do you ever watch other sports? The 'shush' gesture is a fairly common sight (as already mentioned, in football for one) and is just a 'shut it' gesture whether it be to opposition fans, opposition players, the opposition bench, and sometimes the world in general. That's exactly how I interpreted it in this case, not as a specific homage to what Lance did or as a 'straightforward admission of doping'.

Note - I'm not saying I think this is a clean team, or even a clean rider. They're dodgy as hell. Just that people are reading way too much into what was a slightly more polite version of flipping the bird.

 

[Ripper]

The very last thing the UCI wants is doping controversies

Agreed. If anything, the UCI would like to see nothing of the sort. And of course the UCI and (moreso) the ASO want exciting racing that draws fans and sponsors. I think the UCI and the ASO are more tightly linked than they have been for a while though ... what do you think?

 

[macbindle]

French head of UCI. Likely to be close, I guess, but I'm speculating. I have no actual knowledge of the relationship between the two bodies, other than understanding that they are symbiotic

 

[Ripper]

French head of UCI. Likely to be close, I guess, but I'm speculating. I have no actual knowledge of the relationship between the two bodies, other than understanding that they are symbiotic

This article says he has ties to the ASO, but does not indicate what they are:

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/07/dav...osed-in-bid-for-second-uci-presidential-term/

 

[fmk_RoI]

Matej Mohorič responds to criticism of his zipped lips gesture and comparisons with LA:

I did not know. If I did, I wouldn’t have done it. I think a public apology would fall on deaf ears. Those who are hostile by nature will not change their minds anyway. Everyone who knows me, however, needs no explanation for this thing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1416452462064676871

View: https://twitter.com/matmohoric/status/1416452462064676871


It was still a dumb gesture, whatever way you spin it.

 

[fmk_RoI]

This article says he has ties to the ASO, but does not indicate what they are:

He's French. That's his tie.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I think the UCI and the ASO are more tightly linked than they have been for a while though

Following the ProTour Wars (2007-2008) they kissed and made up during the Beijing Games - more than a dozen years ago - and have stayed close since. There may have been a degree of froidure during the Cookson years but that was only because he thought you could solve all problems by holding out for consensus among all the stakeholders.

 

[Bolder]

French head of UCI. Likely to be close, I guess, but I'm speculating. I have no actual knowledge of the relationship between the two bodies, other than understanding that they are symbiotic

ASO is right now the hand that feeds UCI. It's logical that they need to work together. But the French have always been heavily involved in sanctioning bodies starting with De Coubertin and the Olympics revival. And the TDF is the heart of pro cycling so it's not surprising that there's an expectation of a French boss at the UCI now and then. But I couldn't think of a more powerful company than ASO relative to their sport. It would be like owning the World Cup tournament...

 

[samhocking]

Prudhomme was at the conference & actively seeking votes for Lappartient's victory. When asked about that Prudhomme said "I can't say that, but in any case, I am very happy about his victory ". Lappartient in many ways has placed UCI back into ASO's pocket whereas Cookson was, if anything taking UCI out of it.

 

[fmk_RoI]

ASO is right now the hand that feeds UCI.

IOC generates far more money for UCI that ASO does.

 

[Ripper]

IOC generates far more money for UCI that ASO does.

It would be interesting to learn more about how different organizations generate cash for others ... if you have links I would love to read up on this.

To Bolder's comments, it would seem like the UCI being 'good business partners' with the ASO would be a great financial relationship between the two organizations. It does seem like their interests now are both mutual and they work more closely together compared to around 2007/08 when, as you note, the relationship was not quite as good.

The UCI also has its somewhat interesting ties with some dubious country governments. In the past I did not pay much attention to the politics of the organization, but the elections, some of the countries that are 'awarded' races, etc., have been interesting to learn more about. Characters such as Makarov, and Lappartient have also been interesting to learn more about.

 

[fmk_RoI]

It would be interesting to learn more about how different organizations generate cash for others ... if you have links I would love to read up on this.

All of the IFs produce publicly available annual reports.

To Bolder's comments, it would seem like the UCI being 'good business partners' with the ASO would be a great financial relationship between the two organizations.

How? ASO pay licence fees etc the same as all other race organisers. Licence fees etc which don't amount to a whole hill of beans when you add them all up.

The UCI also has its somewhat interesting ties with some dubious country governments.

The UCI is a worldwide organisation, of course it's "in bed" with some dubious countries, every global sporting organisation is. The issue is can you produce any evidence that this has resulted in rules being bent.

And it's not just countries. Some would claim that the UCI is "in bed" with Shimano, or Mapei, or Tissot. Again, though, without any evidence of rule breaking - did the Hours run long, are Shimano's neutral bikes powered by magnets, did Cookson or Lappartient get their bathrooms done by Squinzi? - all this is simply noise meant to support a weak-assed argument.

 

[Ripper]

All of the IFs produce publicly available annual reports.

How? ASO pay licence fees etc the same as all other race organisers. Licence fees etc which don't amount to a whole hill of beans when you add them all up.

The UCI is a worldwide organisation, of course it's "in bed" with some dubious countries, every global sporting organisation is. The issue is can you produce any evidence that this has resulted in rules being bent.

And it's not just countries. Some would claim that the UCI is "in bed" with Shimano, or Mapei, or Tissot. Again, though, without any evidence of rule breaking - did the Hours run long, are Shimano's neutral bikes powered by magnets, did Cookson or Lappartient get their bathrooms done by Squinzi? - all this is simply noise meant to support a weak-assed argument.

With the topic of ASO and UCI, I was thinking more of common business interests that direct payment to one another. So being good partners and furthering one another's interests, etc.

Regarding being very close to some dubious countries, I don't think anyone has produced blatant evidence of rule bending/breaking. It raises eyebrows when certain countries are awarded events even with major issues (e.g. human rights and/or others) but hey, as you note, this is not solely the domain of the UCI. FIFA anyone? Anywho, I find it interesting perhaps because it is eyebrow raising but so far, has not had hard evidence to indicate something nefarious is actually going on. If it did, it would be a different conversation!