Ballan and the destructive power of suspicion

[Digger]

I know you're a reasonable person. Don't you dislike the bullying and hounding of people? I bet you don't buy for a second that they're too stupid to work out that someone can hold a dramatically different opinion to them. I don't either - they can't be that stupid.

TFF has even taken to calling on the mods to shut down threads he doesn't like, and "bumping" threads he does like. I think he needs a little break to refresh his mind. It's quite ugly to watch people so paronoid and upset about other people posting things they don't like.

IGNORE........Gree is amusing - you're actually boring as trolls go. Goodbye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarkGreen0]

I will bait gree because he is escalating pretty well now, and I can see him physically threatening someone pretty soon.

How long are you going to put up with this guy? He's admitting to deliberately trying to drive other users nuts so they end up threatening him and get a banning. How screwed up is that? You've got to be pretty twisted in the head.

What's wrong with just discussing the issues in a civil manner and not trying to ruin threads with nasty baiting?

 

[Mellow Velo]

A crash is expected. But when you are healthy and capable of riding and suddenly you can't because some anonymous ****er takes a corwardly swipe at you?

I'd hardly call the Italian investigators anonymous ****ers, but then again, I don't have a surreal imagination.

IGNORE........Gree is amusing - you're actually boring as trolls go. Goodbye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd assumed they were one and the same. Synchronised sockpuppets.

 

[MarkGreen0]

I don't know why all of you are focusing on all this troll stuff instead of ignoring it and addressing his main point, which I, for one, think is valid.

As I understand it, all the GI Joe nonsense aside, he's saying it's fundamentally unfair and not good for the sport to suspend people on accusation alone, and that a system that can suspend anyone merely for being under investigation, and mere unsubstantiated accusation is all that is required to start an investigation, is problematic. He uses Ballan to make the point that this is not just a hypothetical concern.

Is that a fair characterization of the concern raised in the OP? If not, what is? If so, can everyone please discuss only the merits and weakness of this argument, never mind who is making it and why?

Thanks.

Well said. People can disagree with this guy without going all unstable and trying to get them banned. Indeed, people who openly try to get people banned simply because they disagree with them should be banned themselves.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

If Ballan was temporarily banned for :



Then the moment one other person confirms Floyd's statements I want all of the riders listed by Floyd also placed on a temporary suspension till they are verified to be cleared of such accusations just like Ballan was. If they do apply this temp. ban on them it will prove there are no "special" treatment of riders/teams by the UCI, if there are no temp. bans then we know the UCI is totally corrupt (well we know it is, just an Nth verification).

It's up to the team to do that, not the UCI. BMC did not have to temporarliy ban Ballan if they didn't want to.

That's true, which indicates your issue is with the policy of certain teams.

I think we can safely say that Radio Shack or Astana will not be suspending anyone based solely on unsubstantiated accusations from Floyd Landis made about alleged behavior years ago. So what is your real concern here?

If some teams are too eager to suspend in your opinion, your beef is with those teams, not with the UCI, not with "the system", and certainly not with the members of this forum.

Also, please stop making posts that refer to anything other than the substance of the issue under discussion in this thread. Thanks. A short comment as an aside, like this one, should be fine, as long as it accompanies something substantive that adds to the discourse.

 

[9000ft]

I don't know why all of you are focusing on all this troll stuff instead of ignoring it and addressing his main point, which I, for one, think is valid.

As I understand it, all the GI Joe nonsense aside, he's saying it's fundamentally unfair and not good for the sport to suspend people on accusation alone, and that a system that can suspend anyone merely for being under investigation, and mere unsubstantiated accusation is all that is required to start an investigation, is problematic. He uses Ballan to make the point that this is not just a hypothetical concern.

Is that a fair characterization of the concern raised in the OP? If not, what is? If so, can everyone please discuss only the merits and weakness of this argument, never mind who is making it and why?

Thanks.

I don't think some of the posters on this thread understand this.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I'm getting confused now.
In this thread, we have Green 2 agreeing with Green 1, that drug enforcement agencies somehow make unsubstantiated doping allegations against riders, when they end up netted by the investigation.

In Green 2's other thread, he wants everyone to make unsubstantiated doping allegations against riders in the Giro, presumably to promote his own, favourite to the de facto pink prince title.

Luckily, thread 2 isn't going according to plan...........

 

[this_is_edie]

I go out to ride and come back to this. Feels like deja vu. As a wise person said, ignore is your friend.

 

[Race Radio]

I think we can safely say that Radio Shack or Astana will not be suspending anyone based solely on unsubstantiated accusations

Vladimir Gusev would disagree with you.

It is common for employee across occupations to be suspended when they are under investigation for breaking the rules of that occupation. Teachers, Police, Doctors, Lawyers, why would Professional cyclist be any different?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I think part of the issue is in how some teams handle this.

Case in point is Valverde and Caisse. They "support" him all the while.

BMC sends Ballan to the bench while the issue is sorted. I think they did the right thing. To me, once an "official" investigation is announced, teams should idle the investigated party.

 

[this_is_edie]

Decisions in real life are not made in a vacuum, history is reflected every day in decisions taken.

Andy Rhis owner of BMC has already been hit with doping issues in the past (regardless if he knew or not as per Landis). He had to show publicly that he took any serious doping allegations against his riders seriously given the history so he suspended Ballan.

Was the staff member also implicated in the Lampre mess also suspended? If I remember correctly, he was not, which to me shows that it was just a publicity stunt.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, I am well aware of the fact that he could be hiding behind it. And well aware of the fact that he may be completely unaware of how despicable such a false claim is. It's even more despicable than claiming to have won 7 tdf's without cheating. Perhaps he sees a kindred spirit?

I will let you judge for yourself. A brief visit in to some of 'Gree's' first posts are revealing.

Do the Army Rangers work with the French Gendarmerie? Apparently yes...

From a post 31st July 2009.

..... Of course, having worked with the Gendarmie on a professional level, I must have missed something about this when dealing with them. Stupid me. ...

Must not have worked too long with them since he can't spell Gendarmerie.

Maybe he was still doing law...

From this post 31st July 2009.

.... When lawyers lose, they make excuses, I know because I have beaten a few of them (not literally mind you). ...

 

[Race Radio]

I will let you judge for yourself. A brief visit in to some of 'Gree's' first posts are revealing.

Do the Army Rangers work with the French Gendarmerie? Apparently yes...

From a post 31st July 2009.

Must not have worked too long with them since he can't spell Gendarmerie.

Maybe he was still doing law...

From this post 31st July 2009.

Sounds like he got busted in France and ran away from his lawyers.

 

[gree0232]

I'm getting confused now.
In this thread, we have Green 2 agreeing with Green 1, that drug enforcement agencies somehow make unsubstantiated doping allegations against riders, when they end up netted by the investigation.

In Green 2's other thread, he wants everyone to make unsubstantiated doping allegations against riders in the Giro, presumably to promote his own, favourite to the de facto pink prince title.

Luckily, thread 2 isn't going according to plan...........

Well, simple clarification for the confused.

The people that conduct the investigation are not the ones that make the accussations. Somebody gave them a false report - which is apparently fine?

Why is the person who made these accussations remaining safely anonymous? Wouldn;t you guys love to know who did it so you can parse over all the politics and conflicts of interest?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Gree, I asked you this question before. Do you have an answer?

How can you continue to argue that the system is working when the athletes themselves do not have confidence in it?

 

[gree0232]

Sounds like he got busted in France and ran away from his lawyers.

Is NATO a military alliance?

Does counter insurgency require police involvement? You tell me?

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf

You are aware that war involves the strategic, operational, and tactical levels? There is more to war than simply running around with a gun. Just like it requires more than insults to prove doping.

Perhaps you have heard of NMT-I? MINSTC-I? CSTC-A? Do you know what any of those organizations do?

Funny that I am the one being accussed of being uninformed

Nice to see real ****ers insulting insulting combat vets on memorial day - there is class for you Such honor

Now, would you care to answer you own throw down? What do you do? What are YOUR bonafides to criticize and coduct immature attacks on others? (Which does nothing to prove doping BTW.)

So, we are back to the only tool you guys have, can't beat 'em insult 'em.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Here's another question for you Gree, since you called for ideas on what the UCI could do differently that would lead to more confidence in the system.

I would start with finding out who was responsible for waving the mandatory 6 months dope testing, before a return to competition, for Lance Armstrong. That person should resign; different standards for different riders are unacceptable. I think we can all agree with that, do you?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is NATO a military alliance?

Does counter insurgency require police involvement? You tell me?

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24fd.pdf

You are aware that war involves the strategic, operational, and tactical levels? There is more to war than simply running around with a gun. Just like it requires more than insults to prove doping.

Perhaps you have heard of NMT-I? MINSTC-I? CSTC-A? Do you know what any of those organizations do?

Funny that I am the one being accussed of being uninformed

Nice to see real ****ers insulting insulting combat vets on memorial day - there is class for you Such honor

Now, would you care to answer you own throw down? What do you do? What are YOUR bonafides to criticize and coduct immature attacks on others? (Which does nothing to prove doping BTW.)

So, we are back to the only tool you guys have, can't beat 'em insult 'em.

I haven't insulted you - I just highlighted your posts. If you're insulted by that then you shouldn't have wrote them.

I also checked your posts to see if you had named the people in the Hospital room, I couln't find it - could you point me to the post where you named them.

 

[Anonymous]

The interwebs are great! You can be a ranger Iraqi war killer conspiracy breaker french police helper lawyer. Dang. That gree, he oozes credibility...

 

[this_is_edie]

The interwebs are great! You can be a ranger Iraqi war killer conspiracy breaker french police helper lawyer. Dang. That gree, he oozes credibility...

It's like watching a car accident in slow motion.

 

[Race Radio]

It's like watching a car accident in slow motion.

You are clearly not a Patriot

 

[MarkGreen0]

Maybe it's naive of me, but I always think it's more bother for people to go online and maintain a completely false story than it's worth. I don't know why you guys are so suspicious of people and love to focus on some besides the point nuance to try to catch them out. You've already been told off by a mod so I'd quit it to be honest.

Less character assassination and more subject matter please.

 

[this_is_edie]

You are clearly not a Patriot

I plead guilty.


Steelers all the way!

 

[Anonymous]

I plead guilty.


Steelers all the way!

I also note from reading Dr M's quote of him that gree0232 says we are insulting him on Memorial Day...I guess he is Ms Cleo or something because last time I checked, tomorrow was Memorial Day. Does this guy know anything?

 

[this_is_edie]

I also note from reading Dr M's quote of him that gree0232 says we are insulting him on Memorial Day...I guess he is Ms Cleo or something because last time I checked, tomorrow was Memorial Day. Does this guy know anything?

Well he must know something being a 'ranger Iraqi war killer conspiracy breaker french police helper lawyer'-type person and all.

ha ha ha.