Basso`s time on Lo Zoncolan

[Roland Rat]

The real question should be what would MY time be up Zoncolan? I am 27 y/o, 180lbs, Cat4. 47mins??

How quick do you walk?

 

[rhubroma]

From another post, but the argument's the same.

He road more than a minute slower up the same climb won by Simoni in 2007. He was putting out under 6 watts per kilo, nowhere near the 6.2 boundry, at which point his trainer (and Evans' by the way) Aldo Sassi says we should start having suspiscions.

He didn't crush Evans and the others, just road a bit faster. It was a fair fight, with all the due caution such a statement in modern cycling requires, between the two. In regards to Cunego. Never was as strong as Basso.

He may have not admited to doping, though he did to attempted doping which was enough for the ban anyway so he served his time. And I can assure you he isn't an arrogant hypocrite. Yes he has behaved hypocritically, though he's not vile. He did as he was told, served his time and now he's back. I don't care if he didn't decide to blow the cover as Landis is trying to do and am content with his humility: perhaps if we keep to the real statistics he may actually have done yeasterday's result on the exceptional form he's got presently. And if there is "help" it's certainly not of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Kind. Though it would be foolish to think that when Evans and Cunego make pronouncements about themselves riding clean, this doesn't necessarilly mean that clean equates with riding on bread and water alone. This is what I mean by "fair fight," when everything is kept within the agreed upon limits.

 

[rhubroma]

is basso clean ? I have no the faintest idea. never was a fan of his and thought of him even less after the last year’s giro.

but using vam to glean an answer is poor standard compared to what he himself offered.

to my knowledge basso is the only rider who publicized not only his blood tests, physiological parameters and performance watts but most importantly his total body haemoglobin (co2 test).

that’s almost as much as one can ask for and miles better than almost any other rider.

funny how some fans want to see the blood when they get it they turn to obscure instruments. Given cycling’s history it’s understandable.[/e QUOTE]

Good points. Though I've always liked the guy. Some of the hypocrisy got on my nerves, but his humanity and humility has allowed me to see past that.

 

[RhodriM]

There may be massive doubts about Basso, but speculating based on comparing times from completely different races or VAM is surely very flawed? A bike race is hardly a lab environment.

There are better reasons to doubt riders.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Clearly it is flawed to compare times in isolation - loads of other factors come into play including wind etc. If comparing 2007 and 2010 was comparing like-with-like then the riders in the "bus" would be finishing a similar time behind, right ? But Simoni only beat the bus by 20 mins whereas Basso beat the bus by 30 mins. So does that mean Basso 2010 is 10 minutes better than Simoni ? No but it does show that yesterday's stage in the context of this year's race was much harder than in 2007 and the numbers are consistent hence the reason it appears Simoni was faster

10th place: 2007 - @2:02, 2010 - @3:46
20th place: 2007 - @3:35, 2010 - @5:53
50th place: 2007 - @9:13, 2010 - @14:50
100th place: 2007 - @14:32, 2010 - @25:25
last place: 2007 - @20:24, 2010 - @30:46

For what it's worth (and this is purely subjective so I'm not going to get into a big argument about it) I think that Cunego is probably about the same level in both races

Cunego: 2007 - @0:37, 2010 - @1:58

Factoring in the approx 50% increased time gaps yesterday that would put Basso 2010 as about 45 secs better than Simoni 2007 which feels about right to me. Also Evans 2010 = A Schleck 2007, Vino 2010 = Pellizotti 2007, Samoilau 2010 = Samoilau 2007, Nibali 2010 (after a hard day) 45 secs better than 2007 and Arroyo 2010 (pink) 2:30 better than 2007. Works for me but purely subjective. The times on Corones will be interesting

 

[Archibald]

I watched it and thought "Damn, he's making this look easy", while Evans was clearly struggling. Then I considered...
Previous efforts from the day before chasing Nibali - Evans busting his ar$e while Basso got a tow...
The amount of protection from the Liguigas team vs complete lack of protection for Evans...
The boost from the tifosi/leading the stage/etc...
What looked like a better gear selection by Basso vs Evans...

Does this make him clean? I have no idea, but he still made it look far easier than the rest. His speed doesn't appear to be too relevant, as it looked like he just cruised and the rest just fell away...
The only thing I was prepared to completely conclude regarding whether clean or not is that I reckon Evans is far more likely to be than Basso for that stage. Granted I'm not using any maths or formulas just what I saw on the telecast and seeing who was really working their ar$e off...

 

[rhubroma]

I watched it and thought "Damn, he's making this look easy", while Evans was clearly struggling. Then I considered...
Previous efforts from the day before chasing Nibali - Evans busting his ar$e while Basso got a tow...
The amount of protection from the Liguigas team vs complete lack of protection for Evans...
The boost from the tifosi/leading the stage/etc...
What looked like a better gear selection by Basso vs Evans...

Does this make him clean? I have no idea, but he still made it look far easier than the rest. His speed doesn't appear to be too relevant, as it looked like he just cruised and the rest just fell away...
The only thing I was prepared to completely conclude regarding whether clean or not is that I reckon Evans is far more likely to be than Basso for that stage. Granted I'm not using any maths or formulas just what I saw on the telecast and seeing who was really working their ar$e off...

Well it was "easier" for him to ride at that pace, which is why the others got dropped. It's called being the strongest on the climb. And the result is the win.

Not trying to belittle, mind you, but if you look at the photography (and by the way there's an awsome shot in today's la Gazzetta dello Sport in which you can see Basso was just burrying himself after he relieved himself of his last rival Evans. Mouth wide open, trying to keep the oxigen flow coming, and his eyes, they looked possesed and were beginning to roll back into his head from the intensity of the effort. Epic and heroic immage. Makes you love cycling, despite all the bull. The man was all out as they say.) it says it all.

 

[rhubroma]

Clearly it is flawed to compare times in isolation - loads of other factors come into play including wind etc. If comparing 2007 and 2010 was comparing like-with-like then the riders in the "bus" would be finishing a similar time behind, right ? But Simoni only beat the bus by 20 mins whereas Basso beat the bus by 30 mins. So does that mean Basso 2010 is 10 minutes better than Simoni ? No but it does show that yesterday's stage in the context of this year's race was much harder than in 2007 and the numbers are consistent hence the reason it appears Simoni was faster

10th place: 2007 - @2:02, 2010 - @3:46
20th place: 2007 - @3:35, 2010 - @5:53
50th place: 2007 - @9:13, 2010 - @14:50
100th place: 2007 - @14:32, 2010 - @25:25
last place: 2007 - @20:24, 2010 - @30:46

For what it's worth (and this is purely subjective so I'm not going to get into a big argument about it) I think that Cunego is probably about the same level in both races

Cunego: 2007 - @0:37, 2010 - @1:58

Factoring in the approx 50% increased time gaps yesterday that would put Basso 2010 as about 45 secs better than Simoni 2007 which feels about right to me. Also Evans 2010 = A Schleck 2007, Vino 2010 = Pellizotti 2007, Samoilau 2010 = Samoilau 2007, Nibali 2010 (after a hard day) 45 secs better than 2007 and Arroyo 2010 (pink) 2:30 better than 2007. Works for me but purely subjective. The times on Corones will be interesting

I think wattage output is a legitimate critirea. True each race is its own event, and this Giro is much harder than the 2007 race. So the riders could simply be more tired and, with the course yesterday, Basso and the group could have arrived less fresh than Simoni in 07 and this could explain the "slower time."

Yet in terms of power output in other races in which results seem to defy all human capacity, Basso's performance was back down from planet Mars to planet Earth. And thus from a martian to a human being. Does this mean he's necessarily clean. Certainly not. However it at least allows us reasonable doubt that he wasn't super-charged at least.

 

[ttrider]

I think the most important factor was some of the other screwing up the gear ratio
Basso had dinner plates on the back so could spin
Evans i know has a lower cadence anyway (but not normally that much lower) and yet he couldnt spin at all same with a lot of others

 

[Mambo95]

Clearly it is flawed to compare times in isolation - loads of other factors come into play including wind etc. If comparing 2007 and 2010 was comparing like-with-like then the riders in the "bus" would be finishing a similar time behind, right ? But Simoni only beat the bus by 20 mins whereas Basso beat the bus by 30 mins. So does that mean Basso 2010 is 10 minutes better than Simoni ? No but it does show that yesterday's stage in the context of this year's race was much harder than in 2007 and the numbers are consistent hence the reason it appears Simoni was faster

You can't deduce anything from the autobus's time other than the stage was longer. They're not trying to go as fast as they can, they're trying us as little energy as possible. With the longer stage, they can finish further back on time, and given an extra 10-15 minutes, they're going to use them.

 

[Zoncolan]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sassi-talks-about-basso-evans-and-the-zoncolan
Basso climbed the 10.1km to the summit of Monte Zoncolan in a time of 40:45, one minute and 45 seconds slower than Gilberto Simoni in 2007. His average speed was 14.7km and he put out an average of 395 watts on the climb. The VAM (Velocità Ascensionale Media) or average climbing speed adjusted for the gradient, was calculated at 1777m/hour. Basso's power to weight ratio was 5.68km/h. In the past Sassi has said that any value over 6.2w/kg for a long effort on a major climb at the end of a stage race could be an indication of doping.

IF those numbers are true, he could really be clean.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

You can't deduce anything from the autobus's time other than the stage was longer. They're not trying to go as fast as they can, they're trying us as little energy as possible. With the longer stage, they can finish further back on time, and given an extra 10-15 minutes, they're going to use them.

That doesn't explain how gaps were consistently 50% bigger all the way down the classification

 

[Rydberg]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sassi-talks-about-basso-evans-and-the-zoncolan
Basso climbed the 10.1km to the summit of Monte Zoncolan in a time of 40:45, one minute and 45 seconds slower than Gilberto Simoni in 2007. His average speed was 14.7km and he put out an average of 395 watts on the climb. The VAM (Velocità Ascensionale Media) or average climbing speed adjusted for the gradient, was calculated at 1777m/hour. Basso's power to weight ratio was 5.68km/h. In the past Sassi has said that any value over 6.2w/kg for a long effort on a major climb at the end of a stage race could be an indication of doping.

IF those numbers are true, he could really be clean.

Well, I started my stopwatch when the front group reached about 10.1km to go (you could see where they turned onto the mountain so I think it was acurate enough) and Basso crossed 43 or so minutes later, so the time of 40:45 seems right to me. That gives just about 400W on the online calculators, so again that seems right (nb on such a steep climb, estimates of power are going to be pretty good). I couldn't conclude that they were doping, it certainly seems to be within the bounds of reason, but who knows? The whole race has been very tough so far.

Considering that on Saturday, Niblali, Scarponi, Basso and Evans all summited Monte Grappa together, (Evans struggling more than the others) and then Nibali, Evans and Scarponi pushed very hard in the last 15km. So you could say that they all have similar climbing speeds, but the three that had to push hard at the end of stage 14 paid the price on the Zoncolon.

One final thing. On lots of sections where Evans was out of the saddle and Basso was seated, it seemed to me they had the same cadence.

 

[Archibald]

Well it was "easier" for him to ride at that pace, which is why the others got dropped. It's called being the strongest on the climb. And the result is the win.

Not trying to belittle, mind you, but if you look at the photography (and by the way there's an awsome shot in today's la Gazzetta dello Sport in which you can see Basso was just burrying himself after he relieved himself of his last rival Evans. Mouth wide open, trying to keep the oxigen flow coming, and his eyes, they looked possesed and were beginning to roll back into his head from the intensity of the effort. Epic and heroic immage. Makes you love cycling, despite all the bull. The man was all out as they say.) it says it all.

fair point on the pic, but 1/500th of a second moment does not ever give the full picture - no matter how classic it may be, or what you get from that image. Eye's rolling back into his head? How many moments of split-second timing have cameras caught strange facials... I'm not having a go, but to base your conclusion on one tiny moment?
My observation is purely based on watching the whole ride, be that as it was shown by the Italian television broadcast...
Basso did not seem to be puffing as much as the others, nor did he look like he was puting in as much effort. I'd like to believe he was clean. I'd like to believe Sassi - which I have more faith in.
But it's just not the impression that ride gave me. Were the factors I mentioned earlier able to give Basso such a major advantage over Evans on such a ride?

 

[santacruz]

What would Basso's time be without the added boost from all the tifosi?? It was like a spanking machine going up that mountain, for Basso. I'm saying he losed a minute if you subtract 10,000 rear end(trying to get past this filter lol!!) slaps/grabs.

 

[Von Mises]

fair point on the pic, but 1/500th of a second moment does not ever give the full picture - no matter how classic it may be, or what you get from that image. Eye's rolling back into his head? How many moments of split-second timing have cameras caught strange facials... I'm not having a go, but to base your conclusion on one tiny moment?
My observation is purely based on watching the whole ride, be that as it was shown by the Italian television broadcast...
Basso did not seem to be puffing as much as the others, nor did he look like he was puting in as much effort. I'd like to believe he was clean. I'd like to believe Sassi - which I have more faith in.
But it's just not the impression that ride gave me. Were the factors I mentioned earlier able to give Basso such a major advantage over Evans on such a ride?

Facial expressions are not good indication of doping anyway. Doped or not, you are still going to limit, only the limit is higher, pain is the same. People are just different epressing their pain and you do not need pro cycling to see it, you can see this even in school competitions.

 

[icefire]

Can anyone explain why the 200 km with 3 climbs raced at the high tempo set by the Liquigas team is irrelevant in deciding whether the power numbers can be done clean? Just curious

 

[ttrider]

Facial expressions are not good indication of doping anyway. Doped or not, you are still going to limit, only the limit is higher, pain is the same. People are just different epressing their pain and you do not need pro cycling to see it, you can see this even in school competitions.

+1 Definitely agree with this at your limit you always look exactly the same and everyone of the top 10 was at their limit i guarantee

Why wont people see this as positivive it was produced with very acceptable numbers i enjoyed the race anyway and the fact that the numbers are very reasonable makes it probably clean as well, i also agree with the commentator in the live feed that big accelerations are gone for good now dope controls are better, i mean christ even contador hasnt had anything like the kick he had in 07 since when hes at his limit these days, i believe this is a sign of doping for shore, havent seen a massive acceleration from anyone this year really to rival a contador 07 or pantani dig

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

This is interesting for 2 reasons:

1 - looks like a pro cyclist renowned for freakish natural talent has convincingly won a mtn stage with an average wattage of around only 400 on the final climb.

This is way lower than the : "taking the ****" wattages of 440-460 that frauds like Lance and Ricco were cranking out.

2 - If Basso rides sluggishly and appears tired on tuesday, and is unable to crank out his "best" again on demand, we'll know more about the impaired ability to recover from such efforts in the last week of a grand tour in the biopassport / EPO test era compared to the past.

We have no evidence that Basso is doping right now, and compared to 2006, when he was doping, he looks more "human". this may not be 100% clean, but its clearly nowhere near as dirty as it was.

What's of interest to me is what this says about the past...when a guy like Lance cranked out much higher wattage than this repeatedly and on demand, and looking way more comfortable than Basso did.

If this is cleaner cycling, it only makes the past look even dirtier in comparison.

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

Basso looks an odds on doper again for me. Crap uphill a couple of weeks ago, he takes the stage up Zoncolan!(?)

Ridiculous..

...the less said about Vinokourov the better. Cheating ****!

..still innocent 'til proven guilty (again)

 

[Joey_J]

1 Gilberto Simoni – 39:05
2 Leonardo Piepoli - ST
3 Andy Schleck - 0.07
4 Danilo Di Luca - 0.31
5 Damiano Cunego - 0.37
6 Massimo Codol - 0.58
7 Julio Alberto Perez Cuapio - 1.19
8 Franco Pellizotti - 1.40 < Basso >
9 Marzio Bruseghin - 1.57
10 Ivan Ramiro Parra - 2.02
11 Vincenzo Nibali - 2.08
12 Riccardo Ricco - 2.11
13 Eddy Mazzoleni - 2.26
14 Mario Aerts - 2.38
15 Fortunato Baliani - 2.41
16 Paolo Bettini - 2.43
17 Dario David Cioni - 2.55 < Evans >


Some interesting names rode quite faster than Basso and Evans in 2007

 

[gingerwallaceafro]

1 Gilberto Simoni – 39:05
2 Leonardo Piepoli - ST
3 Andy Schleck - 0.07
4 Danilo Di Luca - 0.31
5 Damiano Cunego - 0.37
6 Massimo Codol - 0.58
7 Julio Alberto Perez Cuapio - 1.19
8 Franco Pellizotti - 1.40 < Basso >
9 Marzio Bruseghin - 1.57
10 Ivan Ramiro Parra - 2.02
11 Vincenzo Nibali - 2.08
12 Riccardo Ricco - 2.11
13 Eddy Mazzoleni - 2.26
14 Mario Aerts - 2.38
15 Fortunato Baliani - 2.41
16 Paolo Bettini - 2.43
17 Dario David Cioni - 2.55 < Evans >


Some interesting names rode quite faster than Basso and Evans in 2007

What a motley bunch of peddlers....

 

[slcbiker]

Very silly all this comparing of times. Compare riders on identical or near-identical equipment on a track. Otherwise wayyy too many variables.

What was the stage like before the ride?
What were the stages before that like?
How much work did the rider do?
What was the wind like?
What were the temps like?
What was the road condition like?
What equipment was used (i.e. looked like Cadel had too big of gears)?
Did the rider eat and drink correctly?
And so on...

All of these things, individually and/or combined could influence times/speed as much as doping.

Not saying Basso did or didn't dope. Just that comparing times (or speed, or power) is not going to give you a reliable answer.

 

[ellenbrook2001]

Basso

WOWWW did you see BASSO the way he was pedalling the style the way hes face same when he was challenging AMSTRONG in the tour de france before he get caugth since back too the sport he did nothing then on a day of yesterday he was flying then the others was stand still huhuhuhhu somenthing wrong i hope he get caugth again with drug hes impossible what he did not even tired at the finish common guys open your eyes???????????
also hes team was very dirty has the italian too some riders hes the worst tour i never see so much descrimination from the italian then doctor ferrari must be laughing ???????????????????

 

[Cloxxki]

Are trained professionals still heading towards a mountain with 22% inclines, with their usual flatland one-day-classic gearset? It looking cool (or believable for that matter) and traditional more important than performance?

That's like going into a mountainbike race without sealent inside your tubeless tires, or your tubes. Yes, some trained professionals still do that, too.