Basso suggests Sky doping? Likens them to Armstrong/USPS

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'm literally astounded by the Sky supporters on this thread.

You have Basso, freaking BASSO for christ's sake, drawing a parallel between Sky and LA-led USPS, and stating that there is no way anyone could get away from Porte on a climb.

And you think he WASN'T hinting at doping?

Pull your head out!

 

[BigBoat]

“Look. It’s the same discussion as always, it’s like watching the Tour when Lance [Armstrong] or [Miguel] Indurain raced. You could try to attack, get ahead, but then what are you going to do? Just to have a laugh?” Basso said, sitting on the steps of the team bus.

“If he [Wiggins] goes as they have been, where Richie Porte is pulling and you are on the wheel pushing 420 watts, then explain to me, where are you going to go?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/basso-its-useless-to-try-to-stop-sky_230769

- Basso has seen it all from the inside. He's know what they're up to.

Yeah Wiggins probably had his FTP at 475 watts just like Lance! haha

I want to see Contadope come back next year and take on Sky. He'll have to wait until the end of the climbs though when Mr Limey is tired. Dont know if Contador is patient enough.

 

[iZnoGouD]

Wiggins performance might not have been extraterrial but his team performance was and Basso just confirms that
Basso is a hardworker he might not be as good as he was before but he sure knows what is normal and this isn't normal, it probably reminded him of USPS days... he is a quite guy he would never say this to public if he wasn't 90% sure

 

[Maxiton]

I'm literally astounded by the Sky supporters on this thread.

You have Basso, freaking BASSO for christ's sake, drawing a parallel between Sky and LA-led USPS, and stating that there is no way anyone could get away from Porte on a climb.

And you think he WASN'T hinting at doping?

Pull your head out!

+1. This.

Yeah Wiggins probably had his FTP at 475 watts just like Lance! haha

I want to see Contadope come back next year and take on Sky. He'll have to wait until the end of the climbs though when Mr Limey is tired. Dont know if Contador is patient enough.

The thing is, if the fix is in for Sky, Contador might not have the opportunity . . . . If you think this year was outrageous, just wait till you see Contador being dropped by the Sky train.

 

[Chipist]

Some points.

I should point out I am am British. I am not wet behind the ears*, but I am looking to find reasons why $ky may be clean....

1) When does micro-dosing become not worth it? 1% extra?
2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?
3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?
4) If you think Wigans is doped, do you think he was when winning track gold medals?
5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?
6) How would a generally clean TdF look? What sort of w/kg etc should we expect?


*Seen doping, mainly steriods in rugby league, at an amateur level. No names, no pack drill mind.

 

[Caruut]

I think worth noting is that Basso did not make these kinds of noises when he himself was beaten in the Giro by Hesjedal et al. He has never been the most selfless rider, I don't think he would fling mud out of bitterness that Nibali lost if he would not do so for himself.

 

[wannab]

The thing is, if the fix is in for Sky, Contador might not have the opportunity . . . . If you think this year was outrageous, just wait till you see Contador being dropped by the Sky train.

It seems some are eager to draw conclusions without real evidence, however, seems you are drawing conclusions based on hypothetical future events
to go along, is dropping contador the value-meter of being doped or not?

I don't think it will be the case anyway, Contador put Nibali on 6 min in the '11 Giro, Wiggins does the same on a course perfectly suited for him (basically just by the TTs alone), I see no reason why sky's domestiques could suddenly drop an in form contador based on this years "outrageous" tdf ..

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I should point out I am am British. I am not wet behind the ears*, but I am looking to find reasons why $ky may be clean....

In that case, you're just the guy to help OJ Simpson find "the real killers."

 

[goggalor]

Wiggins performance might not have been extraterrial but his team performance was and Basso just confirms that
Basso is a hardworker he might not be as good as he was before but he sure knows what is normal and this isn't normal, it probably reminded him of USPS days... he is a quite guy he would never say this to public if he wasn't 90% sure

Eurosport interviewed Lulu after the TT, and he said he was happy despite being knocked down from 1st to 3rd in 2 minutes, because the Sky duo were "on another planet".

 

[180mmCrank]

I should point out I am am British. I am not wet behind the ears*, but I am looking to find reasons why $ky may be clean....

1) When does micro-dosing become not worth it? 1% extra?
2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?
3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?
4) If you think Wigans is doped, do you think he was when winning track gold medals?
5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?
6) How would a generally clean TdF look? What sort of w/kg etc should we expect?

*Seen doping, mainly steriods in rugby league, at an amateur level. No names, no pack drill mind.

Don't hold your breath for any sensible answers today BUT if you dig around in the Clinic you will find a few older discussions that make for good reading (you need skip over the name calling parts!) ... there is quite a bit of useful (and less useful) information in there about a number of the questions you ask.


Today through you will probably not get much more than sarcasm

 

[thehog]

I should point out I am am British. I am not wet behind the ears*, but I am looking to find reasons why $ky may be clean....

1) When does micro-dosing become not worth it? 1% extra?
2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?
3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?
4) If you think Wigans is doped, do you think he was when winning track gold medals?
5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?
6) How would a generally clean TdF look? What sort of w/kg etc should we expect?


*Seen doping, mainly steriods in rugby league, at an amateur level. No names, no pack drill mind.

1) When does micro-dosing become not worth it? 1% extra?

- Put that into Grand Tour context. EPO is not only used for performance. Its recovery aspect in a GT is where it counts. i.e. you're at your "natural" top level everyday and not seeing your power diminish in week 2 and 3.

That ends up being 10%+ as you may have dropped that over the 3 week period.

2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?

- What's year round training? You mean other cyclists stopped training? Nibili was racing in February and was vying for podiums all through the year. What's different? All other condenders were the same.

Froome wasn't training year round. He was average of 10 minutes of the pace in each stage at Romandie.

Is he different?

3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?

- You never dope with one drug. If they're doping they're using banned substances.

See Armstrong case for example. For a man of his means the good old fashion blood transfusions was what worked best.

4) If you think Wigans is doped, do you think he was when winning track gold medals?

- In GT's you get the biggest benefit from doping. See above.

5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?

- Potentially for recovery yes. Building muscle mass and weight loss, yes.

6) How would a generally clean TdF look? What sort of w/kg etc should we expect?

- Many will differ on this subject. I say use you're eyes and ask yourself does it look realistic. When you ride an alpine climb you get the true appreciation on what's possible and what's fantasy.

Did you think Sky's performance's were unusual?

 

[D-Queued]

I should point out I am am British. I am not wet behind the ears*, but I am looking to find reasons why $ky may be clean....

1) When does micro-dosing become not worth it? 1% extra?
2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?
3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?
4) If you think Wigans is doped, do you think he was when winning track gold medals?
5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?
6) How would a generally clean TdF look? What sort of w/kg etc should we expect?


*Seen doping, mainly steriods in rugby league, at an amateur level. No names, no pack drill mind.

...

2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?

- What's year round training? You mean other cyclists stopped training? Nibili was racing in February and was vying for podiums all through the year. What's different? All other condenders were the same.

Froome wasn't training year round. He was average of 10 minutes of the pace in each stage at Romandie.

Is he different?

...

Excellent summary by the Hog.

A bit more on #2:

2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?

Absolutely not, and this is a red herring.

Millar famously called Lance on Christmas Day and caught him out for a four hour ride. Millar's response, "I just lost the Tour".

Year-round training is almost as old as the dinosaurs. And is very sophisticated - moreso than your question suggests.

The training is far more sophisticated than simple exercise. Year-round training employs advanced periodization designs (weekly, monthly, seasonally, annually), even for (especially for) single events like the Tour.

Periodization was developed by Tudor Bompa in the 1970s. It was first used in rowing. Carmichael referred to Tudor in his book.

Thus, Sky did not invent annual training.

As for #3)

3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?

The Code includes classes/types of techniques and drugs. Their is no grey scale. This is cheating.

But, maybe we know where Lance sold all the extra Hemassist.

On #5:

5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?

They only need to dope if they want to win.

And, this is for far more than simple recovery and muscle building.

Aside from output, sprinters need to have their brains working at very high levels of output (reaction/response time, keeping the rubber side down, etc.). Anything that can make their bodies more aerobically efficient (e.g. EPO) will help.

While we know that it is used in cycling by GC contenders, one of the sprinter's desirable drugs would be HGH (human growth hormone). HGH helps with explosive power - like for standing vertical jump - that sprinters require.

Dave.

 

[wannab]

I should point out I am am British. I am not wet behind the ears*, but I am looking to find reasons why $ky may be clean....

1) When does micro-dosing become not worth it? 1% extra?
2) I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?
3) If Sky were taking something that is not yet banned, how much is that cheating?
4) If you think Wigans is doped, do you think he was when winning track gold medals?
5) Are the sprinters doped? Do they need to be?
6) How would a generally clean TdF look? What sort of w/kg etc should we expect?

Are there so many (good) reasons to think they are definitely dirty you need reasons which favor they're clean?

1) Micro dosing would only cover recovery, no huge differences in ftp, of course in a stage race recovery can makes all the difference. Although we don't have 100% certainty they don't micro dose, they do get tested none the less. Didn't a certain contador get caught by this? I suspect this is the same for Frank this year. It would also be weird if all values of the bio pass didn't show any decline after a 3 week stage race.

2) Indeed nothing new here, but racing is the best training. It also means more possible doping controles and thus more risk if they would be trying to avoid that.

3) If something is not banned how could that be cheating? Are they on some magical wonderplant that nobody knows about? Most unlikely.

4) Thats the question I ask the biased clinics myself. If so, he's Armstrong 2.0 imo, deceiving people successfully over 14years already, chapeau Brad! Another but unimaginable option is the one of talent, most most most unlikely. No-one can be World champion on his 18th clean, winning 3 Olympic medals clean. Or, or .. they can but track cycling is kiddie play and you need no talent to win Olympic medals there.

5) They can but you can give a guy like, let's say Basso, all the dope you want, he still wouldn't win sprints.

6) The one we just saw doesn't look far from it imo, w/kg are way lower to acceptable levels. Micro dosing for recovery could still be an issue but look at 1) for that. Also, I mean, if they get more lower ... heck, I'll go Pro too, cheers!


To recap, if your only willing to accept they are dirty, you will. Same goes in the other direction. I like to look at the facts as they are at the moment, nothing so far raises a sky high red flag to me (though I remain skeptical). Facts can change, and thus can judgement but I don't like to prejudge, that only makes my reasoning clouded.

 

[Alan D]

“Look. It’s the same discussion as always, it’s like watching the Tour when Lance [Armstrong] or [Miguel] Indurain raced. You could try to attack, get ahead, but then what are you going to do? Just to have a laugh?” Basso said, sitting on the steps of the team bus.

“If he [Wiggins] goes as they have been, where Richie Porte is pulling and you are on the wheel pushing 420 watts, then explain to me, where are you going to go?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/basso-its-useless-to-try-to-stop-sky_230769

- Basso has seen it all from the inside. He's know what they're up to.

YEs Basso HAS seen it from the inside, and he;s very much on the case. Wiggins I can credit. Froome less so, but just.. er... just. But the whole lot of them? Hmmmm. Still loved Wiggo doin' it. But then Lance was fantastic to watch too. But then so are silicone 'planted chiks ! LOL

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?

I was am lowly elite license rider and I used to train all year round too. I wonder what went wrong because I couldn't stay at the front of every race.

 

[Stueyy]

YEs Basso HAS seen it from the inside, and he;s very much on the case. Wiggins I can credit. Froome less so, but just.. er... just. But the whole lot of them? Hmmmm. Still loved Wiggo doin' it. But then Lance was fantastic to watch too. But then so are silicone 'planted chiks ! LOL

Wiggins winning is good from a purely British sports fan stand point but Team Sky did nothing for the TDF. It was obvious after stage 7 that Sky were going to kill off any challenges in the mountains and that is what they did, so making it a rather uninspiring tour. I was waiting for a weakness any weakness; Wiggins to have an off day, Froome to have an off day etc but it never came... Team Sky are built of superhuman stuff and obviously genetically superior to any other rider at the TDF. Wiggins little outburst is exactly what I think of Team Sky after the way they’ve doped their way to victory. David Cameron was even on the band wagon this morning giving praise to Wiggins

 

[Leopejo]

I was am lowly elite license rider and I used to train all year round too. I wonder what went wrong because I couldn't stay at the front of every race.

Did you warm down after each race?

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Did you warm down after each race?

Yes. it was called "riding home" or "riding to the changing rooms"

I also didn't buy into this "low intensity all winter" and did intervals all year round.

I also used my experience from rugby to take an icebath for the legs after hard training.

no one called me a genius, and I was a very average rider.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

May fav rider lol by the way i think he is cleanish now but i miss the old rabobasso, where he could match our lance on a mountain stage

 

[taiwan]

Couple of points

...2) Indeed nothing new here, but racing is the best training. It also means more possible doping controles and thus more risk if they would be trying to avoid that.

Sky swimming coach Tim Kerrison: “One of the things we looked at was the race programme. There’s a requirement to ride all WorldTour races, but let’s take away this approach of going from race to race to race, and in between races you have a couple of days to recover and a couple of days to get ready for the next race. Riders would go through a whole season and never actually train.

So with quite a few of our riders we stripped the race programme down, so they were getting enough race days, but also enough blocks between race days to get some good training in. We tried to dispel this myth that you have to race to be ready to race.”

Yeah that's something they said they changed.

3) If something is not banned how could that be cheating? Are they on some magical wonderplant that nobody knows about? Most unlikely...

Wada prohibited list (pdf): "S0. NON-APPROVED SUBSTANCES
Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (i.e. drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued) is prohibited at all times."

IDK if that catches absolutely everything - maybe there are non-pharmalogical techniques which are in grey areas? Techniques meaning something like cryotherapy, say, but I dunno whether that's useful or not.

 

[VO2 Max]

I am led to understand that Sky did year round training, which other teams have not really done until now, could this be a factor?

I was am lowly elite license rider and I used to train all year round too. I wonder what went wrong because I couldn't stay at the front of every race.

+1 We were on periodized year-round training plans when I was a junior in like 1994! 2 weeks off for a mental break in October I think it was, then back on it. My dad even used to drive me up to race routes a few weeks in advance of race days to do a recon - just like Lance invented five years later - so I should have been awesome. (Totally wasn't though. Perhaps we should have fitted mood lighting inside the car.)

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

+1 We were on periodized year-round training plans when I was a junior in like 1994! 2 weeks off for a mental break in October I think it was, then back on it. My dad even used to drive me up to race routes a few weeks in advance of race days to do a recon - just like Lance invented five years later - so I should have been awesome. (Totally wasn't though. Perhaps we should have fitted mood lighting inside the car.)

One thing I did notice was that the more I raced, and the less I trained - the better I was.

If I didn't race enough, and just trained (no matter how hard) I lost speed and rhythm.

So my own experience is the total opposite of what Sky trainers claim.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

One thing I did notice was that the more I raced, and the less I trained - the better I was.

If I didn't race enough, and just trained (no matter how hard) I lost speed and rhythm.

So my own experience is the total opposite of what Sky trainers claim.

However, they were not 'just training' according to the article

So with quite a few of our riders we stripped the race programme down, so they were getting enough race days, but also enough blocks between race days to get some good training in. We tried to dispel this myth that you have to race to be ready to race.

which sounds to me that they were racing only not as much as before. This holds up when you look at the races that Wiggins entered prior to the Tour.

 

[Leopejo]

Another Liquigas rider, Sylwester Szmyd, wrote about his own and Liquigas's Tour in his blog. He ended the entry with the following significant words:

About the winner... I better not say anything (lit. I'll let myself stay silent).

(Polish original)

 

[thehog]

Another Liquigas rider, Sylwester Szmyd, wrote about his own and Liquigas's Tour in his blog. He ended the entry with the following significant words:


(Polish original)

Interesting. I knew this stuff would come post Tour. Once riders get home and start to reflect on what happened they’ll start talking.

Of course Szmyd is just bitter and is looking for a book deal. Oh and he didn’t read the Clinic first to check if the “numbers” where in the realm of normal. Not as fast as Pantani so clean.