Battle for 2023-2025 WT licenses

[Potomac]

EF get 125 points in worlds ITT

 

[Anderis]

EF get 125 points in worlds ITT

I think effectively a bit less.
Bissegger pushed Piccolo out of EF's top10 scorers if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

I think effectively a bit less.
Bissegger pushed Piccolo out of EF's top10 scorers if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah I think it's a 51 net points gain.

 

[Wyndbrook]

Absolutely don't mind Lotto getting relegated. They have like one interesting rider at this point.

Perhaps.
Personally I hope they survive, a Lotto sponsored team has been competing at the top level for 35 years, longer than many posters have lived.

 

[tobydawq]

Absolutely don't mind Lotto getting relegated. They have like one interesting rider at this point.

I assume you mean De Lie but I think Andreas Kron has some unfulfilled potential too.

 

[Samamba]

I assume you mean De Lie but I think Andreas Kron has some unfulfilled potential too.

Stil annoyed he crashed out of Brabantse and Amstel and then got sick before FW and LBL.

 

[Anderis]

EF got 133 points from mixed relay.

On one hand it makes sense they give points for performances in national teams so that the professional teams don't block riders from participating (because they can score some good points there), on the other hand, it's kind of hilarious how many points EF have got from these.

 

[search]

I wasn't really aware of this either. Any idea if not lining up Ewan had something to do with it?

With Ewan in the team, Australia could basically have ended up with BikeExchange guys riding for their own relegation.

 

[Samamba]

I'm happy that the relegation battle is basically already over and it isn't close, cause I would be ridiculously annoyed about these WC points if LTS would be like 300-400 points behind. Imagine getting points based on how good the women in your country are. It's straight up stupid how many points certain teams get from Nationals and Continental and World champs.

 

[yaco]

BEX got 145 points from the Mixed Relay as Durbridge's points don't count.

 

[Anderis]

I'm happy that the relegation battle is basically already over and it isn't close, cause I would be ridiculously annoyed about these WC points if LTS would be like 300-400 points behind. Imagine getting points based on how good the women in your country are. It's straight up stupid how many points certain teams get from Nationals and Continental and World champs.

Wouldn't EF be behind LTS if you took away all the points their riders scored for their national teams in the last 3 years? I thought I saw that on PCS once.

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Some form of UCI points should be allowed at the WC. I wouldn’t put points on the mixed relay, but other than that I don’t see an issue with UCI points at WC’s. It’s one of the marquee events of the season.

 

[Samamba]

Some form of UCI points should be allowed at the WC. I wouldn’t put points on the mixed relay, but other than that I don’t see an issue with UCI points at WC’s. It’s one of the marquee events of the season.

The issue is that it isn't free to enter for every team ofcourse. And you have riders from teams who could be in danger that need to work for riders of rival teams. It just isn't fair at all. Having plenty of (decent to good) riders of countries that have world class leaders is a disadvantage. If you don't ride for the team the UCI points shouldn't count for the team it's that simple. Add them to the individual ranking, I don't care but to the teams one.

Wouldn't EF be behind LTS if you took away all the points their riders scored for their national teams in the last 3 years? I thought I saw that on PCS once.

Yeah but I think the gap was smaller then. The whole thing would be way closer anyways cause Lotto literally haven't gotten points from championships the last 3 years because they're never selected.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

If the Worlds didn't count for the team ranking, the field depth would be further below average than it already is this year... and Lotto riders not getting selected is, if anything, an indictment of Lotto.

 

[greyclouds]

The whole thing would be way closer anyways cause Lotto literally haven't gotten points from championships the last 3 years because they're never selected.

This is a statement about Lotto's strength more than anything.

On Ewan not being selected, for instance - he has been so subpar the whole season (or two) that there would be a good chance that he would lose contact with the front of the race at Mt Keira's, or at any Mt Pleasant's pass attacked by other riders.

 

[Samamba]

If the Worlds didn't count for the team ranking, the field depth would be further below average than it already is this year... and Lotto riders not getting selected is, if anything, an indictment of Lotto.

I don't believe that as most teams already didn't send their riders. Only riders that are going are either Australian or riders that actually have a shot at a good result. They would be going if it didn't give UCI points too. Plus it's only a problem this year because it's in Australië. People are thinking it's due to the relegation battle mainly, but it isnt. It's because you miss 2 weeks of racing in Europe. Even UAE and Ineos are not sending certain riders because of it.

And your last sentence is just BS. Not a single rider of any other team caught up in the relegation battle would be a leader in the Belgian team. Don't you see the problem? Having a ton of Belgian riders is just a disadvantage right now. And it's not just Worlds, a guy like De Lie would've already been leader at Euros if he wasn't riding for Belgian. Or in Nationals where it's way harder to win in countries like Belgium, Spain, France, Italy, etc. than Slovakia, Latvia, Portugal, USA, Canada, etc... but they all give the same amount of points. I don't get how you don't see the problem here. Lotto's strength is irrelevant, you shouldn't be getting punished for having certain nationalities in your team.

 

[Samamba]

This is a statement about Lotto's strength more than anything.

Well it might be but that's beside the point completely, see my other reply.

 

[yaco]

I wasn't really aware of this either. Any idea if not lining up Ewan had something to do with it?

With Ewan in the team, Australia could basically have ended up with BikeExchange guys riding for their own relegation.

There are three Bike Exchange members in the elite Australian men's team and only two are point scorers - Ewan was never going to be selected for the World's - He stamped his papers when he pushed to attend the Leuven world's on an easier parcour and failed miserably to get around the course.

 

[Samamba]

He stamped his papers when he pushed to attend the Leuven world's on an easier parcour and failed miserably to get around the course.

I know you're a Ewan hater but it's getting a bit pathetic. The guy literally just came back from a complex collorbone surgery. he had like 2 weeks to train for that. Don't act like Australia had so many good riders for that course that they shouldn't have given a spot to Ewan. That being said, he wouldn't have a shot at this Worlds and obviously them not selecting him doesn't have anything to do with the points.

 

[greyclouds]

Well it might be but that's beside the point completely, see my other reply.

On your point regarding nationalities things even a lot more than you put, IMHO. For instance, BEX or EF have almost no home races, even without covid, whilst Lotto has a tone of small home races where they can score "cheap" points. Procycling it's very much a European sport trying to go global, but complete globalization is never possible - look at football, arguably the most international of all pro sports. You could award different point levels for the Nationals, depending on country ranking, that I would agree with you, but not taking them out altogether as it's still an incentive, however minor, to add riders from non-traditional cycling countries. Also wouldn't take points for team classification away from for the simple reason that home race calendars is also not even throughout countries. Awarding points to "national" races it's one of the ways of balancing things, whilst making sure that Worlds etc have as much a strong field as possible.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Not a single rider of any other team caught up in the relegation battle would be a leader in the Belgian team. Don't you see the problem? Having a ton of Belgian riders right now is just a disadvantage right now.

Counterpoint: not a single Belgian rider on Lotto would be a leader for any country you'd expect a top-10 from at any of the past three WCs.

Plus it's only a problem this year because it's in Australië. People are thinking it's due to the relegation battle mainly, but it isnt. It's because you miss 2 weeks of racing in Europe. Even UAE and Ineos are not sending certain riders because of it.

Doesn't that make it an advantage to not have many riders who get selected for the WCs this year? If anything, it's good to have a bunch of riders from big countries, especially if most of them are from the same country, because it puts a limit on the amount of riders going to Australia (even if Lotto let them go).

And whatever disadvantage having a lot of Belgian riders could possibly bring at championships, is more than outweighed by Belgian riders generally being better suited than most to the plethora of Belgian races that have accounted for so many points in this relegation battle...

 

[Samamba]

On your point regarding nationalities things even a lot more than you put, IMHO. For instance, BEX or EF have almost no home races, even without covid, whilst Lotto has a tone of small home races where they can score "cheap" points. Procycling it's very much a European sport trying to go global, but complete globalization is never possible - look at football, arguably the most international of all pro sports. You could award different point levels for the Nationals, depending on country ranking, that I would agree with you, but not taking them out altogether as it's still an incentive, however minor, to add riders from non-traditional cycling countries. Also wouldn't take points for team classification away from for the simple reason that home race calendars is also not even throughout countries. Awarding points to "national" races it's one of the ways of balancing things, whilst making sure that Worlds etc have as much a strong field as possible.

First of all. Australia season still went as planned in 2020 and a lot (basically all) of the Belgian smaller races were cancelled that year. That being said, yes ofcourse it's a disadvantage. I've said that before. Hell that's the whole reason why I'm a against a relegation system like we have today. Because it doesn't match sponsor interests. But is that relevant for the point I'm making? The point is that it is a TEAM ranking, so it should be based on how a TEAM performs in races. And Worlds or Continental champs have nothing to do with those teams.

 

[yaco]

I know you're a Ewan hater but it's getting a bit pathetic. The guy literally just came back from a complex collorbone surgery. he had like 2 weeks to train for that. Don't act like Australia had so many good riders for that course that they shouldn't have given a spot to Ewan. That being said, he wouldn't have a shot at this Worlds and obviously them not selecting him doesn't have anything to do with the points.

I am one of Ewan's biggest supporters and have him rated as a top three sprinter in the world - The fact is that Ewan failed to get around Leuven with around 3000 metres of climbing, and as you and I pointed out he will not get around this tougher circuit - I'll also add the selectors were very disappointed when he pulled out of the Commonwealth Games with only two days notice - Anyway, Ewan will be the undisputed leader of the Aussie team next time there is a suitable course.

Finally, I've already posted that promotion/relegation is not needed, that the points system is inequitable and that World and Conti championship should not attract points for promotion/relegation which I'd even extend to National Championship.

 

[Samamba]

Counterpoint: not a single Belgian rider on Lotto would be a leader for any country you'd expect a top-10 from at any of the past three WCs.

Wellens definitely could've been co leader in certain countries in the last 2 years (not this year cause he hasn't been fit). And like I said it isn't just about worlds. But that's besides the point. It's not a team race, that's the point. For example if there was still a team TTT at worlds I would have nothing against giving a ton of points for that even tho that would be horrible for Lotto. Because it's team against team and every teams has an equal chance.

Doesn't that make it an advantage to not have many riders who get selected for the WCs this year? If anything, it's good to have a bunch of riders from big countries, especially if most of them are the same country, because it puts a limit on the amount of riders going to Australia (even if Lotto let them go).

And whatever disadvantage having a lot of Belgian riders could possibly bring at championships, is more than outweighed by Belgian riders generally being better suited than most to the plethora of Belgian races that have accounted for so many points in this relegation battle...

You're focussing way too much on this years Worlds... This isn't about one WC.

And I've always said that the other thing is also a problem with the system, but you still race those races as a team and every team can participate in them (which you see now with Movistar for example getting a ton of points in them).

 

[Ricco']

First of all. Australia season still went as planned in 2020 and a lot (basically all) of the Belgian smaller races were cancelled that year. That being said, yes ofcourse it's a disadvantage. I've said that before. Hell that's the whole reason why I'm a against a relegation system like we have today. Because it doesn't match sponsor interests. But is that relevant for the point I'm making? The point is that it is a TEAM ranking, so it should be based on how a TEAM performs in races. And Worlds or Continental champs have nothing to do with those teams.

It's not a team ranking, it's a ranking that reflects the individual values in each team. Of course the World Championships need to count. If a team has a rider strong enough to be a relevant rider in a World Championship, it needs to be rewarded for that. After all, the value the team pays monthly to that rider in his wage also reflects the achievements he makes riding for his country.

Let's travel back to 2010 and assume we have a system like this in place then. Shouldn't Hushovd points as World Champion be considered to determine Cervélo's ambitions to be a World Tour team back then if they would be fighting for a place in the top tier? Should we discard about one third of the points achieved by the then World Champion, who was part of a 2nd tier team, during the whole season?

Not to say that a rider who really focus to be in top shape during the World Championships also needs to sacrifice being in shape during other parts of the season, therefore giving up on results and points for his trade team to build shape to the races where he will be representing his country.