Best All-Rounder Rider Today?

[The Hitch]

Valverde would out-descend Contador no trouble. He just normally doesn't have to rely on that to win, and we don't see him going balls-out near-the-knuckle descending that often.

In 2006 he was coming back from injury after the Tour, so it's not surprising that he might have been a bit more circumspect than normal. Cadel Evans is normally a better descender than he showed on the Mortirolo in 2010, too. Sometimes people have an off day. Sometimes riders do things tactically. After all, Contador could stick with Samuel Sánchez on Colle Pra Martino this year, but last year he didn't drop Andy freaking Schleck on the way down the Col de la Madeleine. Similarly, Nibali flew down Monte Grappa, then had to ride slowly and try not to sigh too audibly as Basso descended like an old lady on the Mortirolo. Maybe those tactics weren't correct sometimes.

Maybe teaming with Luís León Sánchez and David Arroyo made him look less adept downhill than he is, but the guy is very good downhill.

In the tt against Horner in Pais Vasco Valverde was 16 down on Horner but then flew in the final downhill and ended up 8 seconds down.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I say EBH.

he can sprint, tt, good on flats, cobbles, hills and even decent in mountains apparently.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Really, what skills does Evans have that Contador does not?

Evans has a sprint (which is underrated) and his MTB background means he's pretty damn good on poor or unpaved surfaces. At least for someone his size anyway. I'm not saying he can win Roubaix or anything.

Contador looks to have the skills for hills and one-day races, but Evans has an enviable palmarès already established in that field.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I agree evans is a superb all round rider imo.

 

[cineteq]

Really, what skills does Evans have that Contador does not?

2 against 1...if winning GTs left and right is not synonymous of all-rounder, then I do not know which skills are you [Libertine] talking about...

 

[The Hitch]

Evans has a sprint (which is underrated) and his MTB background means he's pretty damn good on poor or unpaved surfaces. At least for someone his size anyway. I'm not saying he can win Roubaix or anything.

Contador looks to have the skills for hills and one-day races, but Evans has an enviable palmarès already established in that field.

If we are taking the OPs view on the issue - can win gts and classics, then Contador is the best all rounder. Hes by far the better gt rider and a worse classics rider yes but hes just getting started there and when Evans was his age he hadnt even podiumed Fleche Wallone yet.

If we take the term all rounder seriously - hence judge riders abilities in all aspects, not just climbing, then Valverde is the best all rounder.

 

[Ferminal]

Evans > Cancellara > Sagan > Contador.

 

[cineteq]

Contador looks to have the skills for hills and one-day races, but Evans has an enviable palmarès already established in that field.

The guy can win GT stages at will, and you say he "looks" to have the skills? It obvious that he can, if he will prepare to do it. Example LBL this year, imagine is Berto would have been in the mix?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

If we take the term all rounder seriously - hence judge riders abilities in all aspects, not just climbing, then Valverde is the best all rounder.

depends at how much you rate said abilities. For sure he is one of the best.

I mean I know valverde has done an ok tt here and there, but do I think he is a good ttr? no. On a flat tt he generally sucks, gesink can do a good tt on a hilly course to, but I don't really rate him in the tt.

He is a good climber, but not outstanding, at a similar level of the samus, evans, gesinks etc. Very good hill guy. Great sprint.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

2 against 1...if winning GTs left and right is not synonymous of all-rounder, then I do not know which skills are you [Libertine] talking about...

Because a GT rider isn't necessarily an all-rounder?

I mean, was Pantani an all-rounder? Simoni? Sastre? 2010-era Basso?

Hell, José Manuel Fuente couldn't TT, couldn't descend and had more than his fair share of problems on the flat, but he still won 2 GTs.

Part of the beauty of cycling is that there's something for everyone. The sprinters, the rouleurs, the puncheurs, the climbers, the descenders, the time triallists. Being a GT contender entails combining some of these skills, sure, but some of the skills are not relevant; a GT contender does not NEED to be able to contend the sprint, nor do they need to be a cobbled classics contender, since those only crop up occasionally in GTs. Alberto Contador does not have a sprint (he was beaten by freaking Juan Mauricio Soler at the summit of Morredero in 2010, for goodness' sake), nor does he have any skills for riding the cobbles, the mud etc. But then, he doesn't need those skills, because he can easily gain any and all time he loses back in the disciplines he is good at - climbing, TTing etc. Contador looks to have the skills as a puncheur, but Evans definitely has the skills as a puncheur, and in fact Contador's best puncheur performances have come in races that Evans has won, because he's got more experience and race smarts when it comes to that. Andy Schleck has all the skills in the world for hilly classics, but it doesn't mean he will win if he continues to race like he did in 2011.

But being able to make up your losses in one skill by being better at another does not an all rounder make. An all-rounder has skills at all of those things. Whether they use them or not is another matter.

Contador is not an all-rounder. It's just that he's so much, SO MUCH better than everybody else at a couple of key skills for the Grand Tours, and those skills that he doesn't have are relative irrelevances for the Grand Tours, that he has no reason to care about improving those skills.

 

[cineteq]

I mean, was Pantani an all-rounder? Simoni? Sastre? 2010-era Basso?

No they weren't. I guess by not mentioning Alberto you admit he's an all rounder.
Libertine, if I were to apply your criteria of what an all-rounder should be, then I'd agree with you.

 

[The Hitch]

depends at how much you rate said abilities. For sure he is one of the best.

I mean I know valverde has done an ok tt here and there, but do I think he is a good ttr? no. On a flat tt he generally sucks, gesink can do a good tt on a hilly course to, but I don't really rate him in the tt.

He is a good climber, but not outstanding, at a similar level of the samus, evans, gesinks etc. Very good hill guy. Great sprint.

Valverde has better tt results than Gesink.

From last year he came 2nd to Horner in PV tt beating Pinnoti, Peraud, Sanchez.

Stage 6 Results
Cyclist Team Time
1 Chris Horner (USA) Team RadioShack 32' 33"
2 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne + 8"
3 Maxime Monfort (BEL) Team HTC-Columbia + 13"
4 Michael Rogers (AUS) Team HTC-Columbia + 18"
5 Beñat Intxausti (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi + 21"

More impressively he beat Rogers, Menchov and Pinotti - 3 tt greats, in the Romandie tt

Cyclist Team Time
1 Richie Porte (AUS) Team Saxo Bank 30' 54"
2 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne +26"
3 Vladimir Karpets (RUS) Team Katusha +27"
4 Michael Rogers (AUS) Team HTC-Columbia +28"
5 Denis Menchov (RUS) Rabobank 31"

In the 2008 Dauphine he came 3rd in the prologue
Prologue Results
Cyclist Team Time
1 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana 6' 10"
2 Thor Hushovd (NOR) Crédit Agricole + 1"
3 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne + 6"
4 Maxime Monfort (BEL) Cofidis + 12"
5 Vladimir Efimkin (RUS) Ag2r-La Mondiale + 12"

and then won the 30k tt 2 days later

which was about as hilly as the won Evans won the Tour on this year .

Stage 3 Results
Cyclist Team Time
1 Alejandro Valverde (ESP) Caisse d'Epargne 44' 59"
2 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana + 19"
3 Cadel Evans (AUS) Silence-Lotto + 20"
4 Mikel Astarloza (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi + 1' 00"
5 Maxime Monfort (BEL) Cofidis + 1' 01"

And a year earlier this, in the prologue against all prologue specialists

1 Bradley Wiggins Great Britain Cofidis 4' 50" 3 pts.
2 Levi Leipheimer United States Discovery Channel + 1" 2 pts.
3 Andrey Kashechkin Kazakhstan Astana + 2" 1 pts.
4 George Hincapie United States Discovery Channel + 2"
5 Alejandro Valverde Spain Caisse d'Epargne + 3"


GTs you ask, well in this Vuelta tt he came an impressive 5th just behind Contador

Rank Rider Team Time CQ
leader LEIPHEIMER Levi AST 14h16'11" 18
1. LEIPHEIMER Levi AST 50'57" 70
2. CHAVANEL Sylvain COF 12" 40
3. QUINZIATO Manuel LIQ 33" 25
4. CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto AST 49" 15
5. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro GCE 59" 10

Loses a mere 15 seconds to Cancellara on this 30k tt from the Vuelta in 2006

1. MILLAR David SDV 40'54" 70
2. CANCELLARA Fabian CSC 40
3. VINOKOUROV Alexandre LSW 05" 25
4. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro CEI 13" 15

And look at the tt specialists on this list from the Criterium International

1. LÖFKVIST Thomas FDJ 10'01" 25
2. VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro GCE 03" 15
3. CHAVANEL Sylvain COF 09" 10
4. KLÖDEN Andreas AST 09" 5
5. JULICH Bobby CSC 10" 3
6. VINOKOUROV Alexandre AST 11" 0
7. VOIGT Jens CSC 14" 0
8. PEREZ SANCHEZ Francisco GCE 17" 0
9. SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon GCE 17" 0
10. VELITS Peter WIE 22" 0

On top of that he regularly wins the hilly tts in the smaller spanish races like Murcia or Burgos.

Sure he doesnt always bring it, especially not in the TDF but to compare him to Gesink doesnt do him justice. Hes won lots of tts, and while he does better on hilly ones so do Evans and Contador.

Who else from GT riders would you have above him in the tt. Menchov and Sanchez obviously.
Im running out of names now.

From the lower GT riders you have Levi Vino Kloeden Brajkovic but from the contenders only a hanful.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

i didnt say he wasn't better. Don't try and find a debate where there is none, obviously at this point valverde would have better results anyway, you know.. he is older My point was gesink is good in hilly tts too, but I don't think he is a good ttr. Valverde is even better in hilly tts, still I don't rate him in other tts. No need for the facts, my point was rather simple.

Prolouges I cant take much from.

 

[karlboss]

Why do people laugh at the idea A Schleck being in this list? He TTs about as well as Nibali, challenges in the ardennes and has won, and his climbing can't be questioned. Stage 8 2010 even "outsprinted" the best climbers for the win.

By the GC rider who can win a classic he must be included.

Evans can't sprint, he can hold a high pace for a longish time like the finish of fleche-wallonne, there is a difference. To win these you need to be good over 2 minutes or so. Does anyone have an example of a sprint?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Why do people laugh at the idea A Schleck being in this list? He TTs about as well as Nibali, challenges in the ardennes and has won, and his climbing can't be questioned. Stage 8 2010 even "outsprinted" the best climbers for the win.

By the GC rider who can win a classic he must be included.

Evans can't sprint, he can hold a high pace for a longish time like the finish of fleche-wallonne, there is a difference. To win these you need to be good over 2 minutes or so. Does anyone have an example of a sprint?

You're right, Andy is a GC guy who can win a classic. That doesn't mean he is an all-rounder. Also, a lot of the discussion is that Nibali is not himself an all rounder.

Also, Evans won stage 4 sprinting past all rounder types like Gilbert and Thor, among others. It was on a hill, so I don't know if that satisfies your "sprint". Not to mention FW, and T-A.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The best all rounde today? Well Clearly Valverde can't count considering he hasn't been competing today. Anyway, I'd still go Evans.

 

[jordan5000]

Just a thought but it MIGHT be the guy who's won 6 GTs...

 

[karlboss]

You're right, Andy is a GC guy who can win a classic. That doesn't mean he is an all-rounder. Also, a lot of the discussion is that Nibali is not himself an all rounder.

Also, Evans won stage 4 sprinting past all rounder types like Gilbert and Thor, among others. It was on a hill, so I don't know if that satisfies your "sprint". Not to mention FW, and T-A.

Apaprently it is if read the rest of the thread.

Cadel won that the same way he does others, wearing the opposition down there is no kick or explosion, he picks his moment and slowly winds up. The riders he beats are all spent already. The only other rider who sprints is Conatdor who was clearly superior and left it too late. Might as well call getting out of the saddle at the end of a TT a sprint. I suppose he didn't win in a break, his pace did increase so I guess it's a sprint.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Apaprently it is if read the rest of the thread.

...something I did not do. I'll take your word for it then. I figured reading the first few and last few would summarize the 100+ posts.

FWIW, that not how I see "all-rounders". The simplest vision is the guys that can always be a contender at a neutral one-day like the world champs. Now, obviously that can be diverse, with outliers, but the thick of the contenders year in and out, the Gilberts, Cancellaras, Frieres Thors, ect, typify all-rounder.

Should I change my understanding? What is an all rounder, i guess?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Why do people laugh at the idea A Schleck being in this list? He TTs about as well as Nibali, challenges in the ardennes and has won, and his climbing can't be questioned. Stage 8 2010 even "outsprinted" the best climbers for the win.

By the GC rider who can win a classic he must be included.

Evans can't sprint, he can hold a high pace for a longish time like the finish of fleche-wallonne, there is a difference. To win these you need to be good over 2 minutes or so. Does anyone have an example of a sprint?

evans is much more all rounded then a schleck.

better ttr.
easily more versaitile on the tougher terrain. I'd like to see schleck win the giro stage evans did.
better descender.
better sprinter.
Hills they can both do, mountains too, tho obviosuly schleck is better.
LOL just look at this tougher a little wet descent and andy schleck lost a minute.

a little lame taht froome is on the list tho, the guy has performed in one month of his career.

 

[karlboss]

Of course Evans is more rounded, I like others was just pointing out the OP asked for GT riders who could win classics and then said we should give him a break when schleck came up. He's one of few who have actually won a monument and is at the sharp end of GTs.
Which current riders have a monument and GT?
Valverde, Cunego, Vinokourov, Di luca...anyone else.
Then make it one of the Classics you can add Evans.

 

[Boeing]

Peter Sagan

 

[airstream]

Valverde would out-descend Contador no trouble. He just normally doesn't have to rely on that to win, and we don't see him going balls-out near-the-knuckle descending that often.

Contador doesn't rely on it to a greater extent, nonetheless he gains on descents, partially using others' initiative and yet...

In 2006 he was coming back from injury after the Tour, so it's not surprising that he might have been a bit more circumspect than normal.

Do you mean the Tour injury let him sprint, but interfered to decend? Sure, we can't look this factor separately from tactics and the current form of the riders as everything is interconnected and even Nibali or Samu wouldn't catch miraculously prepared Schleck on technically not difficult decent from Col de la Madeleine. But as far as I see it, attack on downhill always implies that a rider has enough energy after going uphill. I don't know what Valverde's able to get on descents considering he suffers on the climbs almost more than any of elite GT riders. Though I tend to agree that he's a little bit better descender than an average climber.

 

[The Hitch]

evans is much more all rounded then a schleck.

better ttr.
easily more versaitile on the tougher terrain. I'd like to see schleck win the giro stage evans did.
better descender.
better sprinter.
Hills they can both do, mountains too, tho obviosuly schleck is better.
LOL just look at this tougher a little wet descent and andy schleck lost a minute.

a little lame taht froome is on the list tho, the guy has performed in one month of his career.

Yes but if you read the thread (which is what karlboss says) it specifies that a rider merely has to be able to win a GT and a clasic, hence someone who won his first monument at 23, came 5th in olympics at 22 and has podiumed every GT he has ever targeted is in, regardless of how well he can tt.

Just the same Cancellara is not in, because cobbles and sprinting and tts dont count.

i didnt say he wasn't better. Don't try and find a debate where there is none, obviously at this point valverde would have better results anyway, you know.. he is older My point was gesink is good in hilly tts too, but I don't think he is a good ttr. Valverde is even better in hilly tts, still I don't rate him in other tts. No need for the facts, my point was rather simple.

Prolouges I cant take much from.

It takes some very impressive flat skills to match Hushovd in a prologue.

 

[El Pistolero]

Evans has a sprint (which is underrated) and his MTB background means he's pretty damn good on poor or unpaved surfaces. At least for someone his size anyway. I'm not saying he can win Roubaix or anything.

Contador looks to have the skills for hills and one-day races, but Evans has an enviable palmarès already established in that field.

Evans has lost pretty much all the important sprints of his life, so I'm not sure why he'd be above Contador just cause he can sprint.

In an uphill sprint, they're about even as we've seen at Mur de Bretagne this year. And that was with a tired Contador. I'm sure in top shape both, Contador would prevail. As for the unpaved surfaces, it just isn't a part of cycling, so again, I see no reason to mention it. Both won't ever ride Paris-Roubaix or the Ronde van Vlaanderen. The only unpaved or poor road surfaces they'll encounter are strade bianche. And Contador did good enough there this year at the Giro.

At the cobbles of the Tour Contador did good as well, but was stuck behind Frank's crash.