Best Climber All Things Being Equal

[SeriousSam]

What's this opinion based on? As a rider becomes heavier, there obviously comes a point when w/kg decreases for the same talent. I think the optimal weight is low because all the best climbers in many years have had low weight.

If that's because doping is much more effective for low weight riders, I'd like to see some evidence for that.

Re diesel climbing, every great climber can climb at an an even average pace or he simply isn't a great climber.

 

[The Hitch]

He was as clean as Alberto was that year. After that the bio-passport really started to have an effect and Basso couldn't do anything more.

Umm wait a minute. In 2010 basso won the giro. In 2011 he crashed badly in his tdf prep and went into tdf poorly prepared as a result. He finished top 10 anyway. Besides he was 33 already. In 2012 when he started to show he wasn't great anymore (still 5th jn giro iirc), he was 34 and the best part if a decade had passed since he first emerged on the scene. Let's not act like a cyclist who is really good in 2005 and 2006 should be producing the same form in 2012. It's been the case with some riders but generally in most sports a peak doesn't usually last such a long time.

Besides, the case for basso is that quote which probably doesn't mean anything anyway, from gibo(?) that basso had talent and doped while di Luca just doped. And the fact that he climbed the stelvio aged like 5 or whatever and was seen for years before he emerged as the next big thing in Italian cycling. Not that I am making those arguments though. For me it's absolutely impossible to say who was the best clean and none of these arguments should resonate, but that's the case for basso anyway.

 

[Futuroscope]

My point (opinion) is that guys such as Pantani, Heras, Rasmussen and Basso who where great in the mountains but didn't have natural TT ability are 'empty' riders. Pure EPO products.

Miguel Indurain would have smashed all these guys to pieces even without doping. Try attacking a guy who is 15min up the road.

 

[Futuroscope]

Umm wait a minute. In 2010 basso won the giro. In 2011 he crashed badly in his tdf prep and went into tdf poorly prepared as a result. He finished top 10 anyway. Besides he was 33 already. In 2012 when he started to show he wasn't great anymore (still 5th jn giro iirc), he was 34 and the best part if a decade had passed since he first emerged on the scene. Let's not act like a cyclist who is really good in 2005 and 2006 should be producing the same form in 2012. It's been the case with some riders but generally in most sports a peak doesn't usually last such a long time.

Besides, the case for basso is that quote which probably doesn't mean anything anyway, from gibo(?) that basso had talent and doped while di Luca just doped. And the fact that he climbed the stelvio aged like 5 or whatever and was seen for years before he emerged as the next big thing in Italian cycling. Not that I am making those arguments though. For me it's absolutely impossible to say who was the best clean and none of these arguments should resonate, but that's the case for basso anyway.

Yes, you have a good point in regards to age. It's always going to be speculative.

 

[The Hitch]

In my opinion that is often the case. With a cleaner sport you see more diesel climbers at the top. There would still be mountain goats but they wouldn't dominate mountain stage after mountain stage.

Then you of course have freaks such as Quintana.

Epo from what I've read and seen is more likely to help diesel climbers or rather helps diesels become climbers to begin with than it is to help pure climbers. First of all since speed increases slipstream also increases making it more difficult for attackers to drop diesels in their slipstream, and the increase in speed also helps riders who have a whole team of doped to the gills domestiques to stay in trains. Secondly a study posted here before though I can't remember it, suggested epo helps bigger athletes. Thirdly epo makes mountains easier thus potentially neutralizing mountain stages or at least part of their difficulty allowing tters to hold on in the mountains and fight it out in the tt.

 

[Netserk]

My point (opinion) is that guys such as Pantani, Heras, Rasmussen and Basso who where great in the mountains but didn't have natural TT ability are 'empty' riders. Pure EPO products.

Miguel Indurain would have smashed all these guys to pieces even without doping. Try attacking a guy who is 15min up the road.

So the thin natural climbers before EPO who couldn't TT were also empty riders. Pure EPO products?

 

[Walkman]

He was as clean as Alberto was that year. After that the bio-passport really started to have an effect and Basso couldn't do anything more.

You are just trying to make your reality make sense.

Basso was elite in 2010. And in 2011 he had a serious crash 5 weeks out of the Tour and still climbed with the best. You comments are nonsense since you don't know either riders doping program.

You just want Contador to be better since you like him more. Typical fanboyism.

Edit:

Hitch already make this point I see.

 

[Futuroscope]

So the thin natural climbers before EPO who couldn't TT were also empty riders. Pure EPO products?

No, they obviously proved that they could do well without EPO. Look at the colombians for example but then they disappeared during the 90s. But there is also a difference between doing well stage after stage and putting all your efforts into 1-2 stages.

 

[hfer07]

Why not Lance ?

And how can I name Eddy and dare to discard Richard?

Fuente was an all-time great. IMO not as good as Lucien though. And Lucien is not being mentioned much .

Playing field and no doctors-as you stated it- LA could have been a CAT 1 at best. just remember pre-Cancer mutation, when he was heavily doping, he was still getting dropped in the mountains like a stone-let alone not even able to finish a GT.

Perhaps you added him as a joke, but is not even funny to mention him for the sake of irony at all....

 

[Futuroscope]

You are just trying to make your reality make sense.

Basso was elite in 2010. And in 2011 he had a serious crash 5 weeks out of the Tour and still climbed with the best. You comments are nonsense since you don't know either riders doping program.

You just want Contador to be better since you like him more. Typical fanboyism.

Edit:

Hitch already make this point I see.

No, I'm expressing my opinion just like everyone else. Speculative, definitely. What is your opinion?

 

[Walkman]

My point (opinion) is that guys such as Pantani, Heras, Rasmussen and Basso who where great in the mountains but didn't have natural TT ability are 'empty' riders. Pure EPO products.

Miguel Indurain would have smashed all these guys to pieces even without doping. Try attacking a guy who is 15min up the road.

Are you for real?!

Indurain, if anyone, is a product of doping. You think an 80 kg rider that in his eleven first GT:s, finished only 5, and never cracked the top 10 would dominate without doping?

And his rise to glory came exactly at the time when EPO hit the market. Yeah, he would probably do great in an "all time event" where all riders were clean...

 

[roundabout]

Miguel Indurain would have smashed all these guys to pieces even without doping. Try attacking a guy who is 15min up the road.

Or Indurain would have been 15 minutes behind without Conconi and Padilla.

 

[Walkman]

No, I'm expressing my opinion just like everyone else. Speculative, definitely. What is your opinion?

I don't know.

Greg Lemond would probably be pretty high up on my list since he was a great climber and considered to be clean.

 

[Futuroscope]

Are you for real?!

Indurain, if anyone, is a product of doping. You think an 80 kg rider that in his eleven first GT:s, finished only 5, and never cracked the top 10 would dominate without doping?

And his rise to glory came exactly at the time when EPO hit the market. Yeah, he would probably do great in an "all time event" where all riders were clean...

I was comparing Indurain to a few specific names. A guy such as Quintana who has a natural engine and is a climber would smoke Indurain in the mountains. As someone else said, EPO also allowed heavy riders such as Miguel do well in the mountains.

 

[Tonton]

In my opinion that is often the case. With a cleaner sport you see more diesel climbers at the top. There would still be mountain goats but they wouldn't dominate mountain stage after mountain stage.

Then you of course have freaks such as Quintana.

Not so sure. It seems to me that with a cleaner sport, big guys don't climb too well and climbers don't have enough power for good ITT performance. On the other hand, with EPO, big guys did climb (Big Mig, Ullrich), climbers did great ITT (Virenque '97, Pantani '98 in the TdF), and above average talent medium size riders became great climbers and great ITT specialists (LA, Jaja).

 

[Amazinmets73]

I was comparing Indurain to a few specific names. A guy such as Quintana who has a natural engine and is a climber would smoke Indurain in the mountains. As you say, EPO also allowed heavy riders such as Miguel do well in the mountains.

How do we know Quintana's engine is natural?

 

[Walkman]

How do we know Quintana's engine is natural?

Thank you!

I am asking myself the same thing over and over again when reading posts praising his "talent".

 

[Futuroscope]

I don't know.

Greg Lemond would probably be pretty high up on my list since he was a great climber and considered to be clean.

Of course, he is one of the biggest natural talents of all time (although I know some people roll their eyes at that).

He would destroy guys such as Pantani and Heras. But even a Lemond would have trouble with mountain goats on specific stages. Outclimbing him day after day is a different story though.

 

[Futuroscope]

How do we know Quintana's engine is natural?

I don't know that. I'm assuming he is 'pretty' clean at least. With less doping the Colombians are once again producing results. But again, I know some people see it differently.

 

[I Love To Dope]

How do we know Quintana's engine is natural?

climber that can tt means sure sign that he is doping, but his face is such a mess that the aso will never gift him a tour because his mug won't sell

 

[Futuroscope]

Not so sure. It seems to me that with a cleaner sport, big guys don't climb too well and climbers don't have enough power for good ITT performance. On the other hand, with EPO, big guys did climb (Big Mig, Ullrich), climbers did great ITT (Virenque '97, Pantani '98 in the TdF), and above average talent medium size riders became great climbers and great ITT specialists (LA, Jaja).

Good points, we know that EPO did allow riders to transform. But if we look at the 80s and guys such as Hinault and Lemond they had natural talent on all levels and could many times beat specialized climbers. Sure you had Colombians who could win individual stages but outclimbing them stage after stage is something different.

 

[jens_attacks]

Of course, he is one of the biggest natural talents of all time (although I know some people roll their eyes at that).

He would destroy guys such as Pantani and Heras. But even a Lemond would have trouble with mountain goats on specific stages. Outclimbing him day after day is a different story though.

lemond didn't touch blood medicine. we get it. respect for that. he had enough wins and fame when it got on the market though otherwise....
but let's not get that far, biggest natural talents of all time hmmm... c'mon
what about luis ocana,fausto coppi,bobet,fignon? he doesn't get in the top 20 i think

of course this is just speculation thread like pantani 99 vs armstrong 99 lol. but i think marco and robertito panyagua would have destroyed lemond on every climb in the tour.


and again the colombains nonsense here we go...all the colombians in the 90s were massively talented, all their natural hematocrits were 49%, epo doesn't help colombians(in vuelta a colombia only lol).

 

[Futuroscope]

lemond didn't touch blood medicine. we get it. respect for that. he had enough wins and fame when it got on the market though otherwise....
but let's not get that far, biggest natural talents of all time hmmm... c'mon
what about luis ocana,fausto coppi,bobet,fignon? he doesn't get in the top 20 i think

of course this is just speculation thread like pantani 99 vs armstrong 99 lol. but i think marco and robertito panyagua would have destroyed lemond on every climb in the tour.


and again the colombains nonsense here we go...all the colombians in the 90s were massively talented, all their natural hematocrits were 49%, epo doesn't help colombians(in vuelta a colombia only lol).

So it was just a lack of natural talent that made the Colombians disappear in the 90s? What was Pantanis natural hematocrit? 42-43?

 

[Walkman]

lemond didn't touch blood medicine. we get it. respect for that. he had enough wins and fame when it got on the market though otherwise....
but let's not get that far, biggest natural talents of all time hmmm... c'mon
what about luis ocana,fausto coppi,bobet,fignon? he doesn't get in the top 20 i think

And this is not speculative? Lemond at least got the VO2 Max to back it up. Give me some of the other riders numbers and we can talk.

 

[jens_attacks]

i have 50 hematocrit natural and i suck. means shiit
vo2 max means shiit too

lance and marco, guys who fed with pain. that's how they won. it's all about the pain.