Best TTers past or present?

[AngusW]

My criteria for judging the best TTers past or present is their success in Tour time trials given the quality of the opposition, although the nature of Grand Tour racing means that all things are not equal. The minimum requirement is for 10 TT wins or more. Here are the results in no particular order:

Miguel Indurain: 10 Tour TT wins from 12 starts. Other significant wins: World and Olympic TT wins, Giro TT wins. Won all Tour time trials in 1992.

Jacques Anquetil: 10 TT wins from 8 starts. Other significant wins: 9 GP des Nations wins, Giro TT wins (maybe Vuelta TT win).

Lance Armstrong: 11 TT wins from 13 starts. Other significant wins: 1 GP des Nations win. Won all Tour time trials in 1999. Won prologues, mountain TTs and long TTs.

Eddy Merckx: 16 TT wins from 7 starts. Other significant wins: 1 GP des Nations win, TT wins in Giro and Vuelta. Won all Tour time trials in 1972. Won 4 out of 5 time trials in 1970.

So it would seem Merckx once again is the best at time trialing. Then I looked up Bernard Hinault's results:

Bernard Hinault: 20 TT wins from 8 starts. Other significant wins: 5 GP des Nations wins, TT wins in Giro and Vuelta. Won all Tour time trials in 1981. Won 4 out of 5 time trials in 1979 Tour. Won more Tour prologues than anyone else (5). Won prologues, mountain TTs, intermediate TTs and long TTs.

Based on those results, Hinault is my pick for best TTer past or present.

And yes, he is not in your poll. <sigh>

EDIT: forgot to mention that Hinault is the only rider to have won at least one time trial in every tour that he started.

 

[El Pistolero]

My criteria for judging the best TTers past or present is their success in Tour time trials given the quality of the opposition, although the nature of Grand Tour racing means that all things are not equal. The minimum requirement is for 10 TT wins or more. Here are the results in no particular order:

Miguel Indurain: 10 Tour TT wins from 12 starts. Other significant wins: World and Olympic TT wins, Giro TT wins. Won all Tour time trials in 1992.

Jacques Anquetil: 10 TT wins from 8 starts. Other significant wins: 9 GP des Nations wins, Giro TT wins (maybe Vuelta TT win).

Lance Armstrong: 11 TT wins from 13 starts. Other significant wins: 1 GP des Nations win. Won all Tour time trials in 1999. Won prologues, mountain TTs and long TTs.

Eddy Merckx: 16 TT wins from 7 starts. Other significant wins: 1 GP des Nations win, TT wins in Giro and Vuelta. Won all Tour time trials in 1972. Won 4 out of 5 time trials in 1970.

So it would seem Merckx once again is the best at time trialing. Then I looked up Bernard Hinault's results:

Bernard Hinault: 20 TT wins from 8 starts. Other significant wins: 5 GP des Nations wins, TT wins in Giro and Vuelta. Won all Tour time trials in 1981. Won 4 out of 5 time trials in 1979 Tour. Won more Tour prologues than anyone else (5). Won prologues, mountain TTs, intermediate TTs and long TTs.

Based on those results, Hinault is my pick for best TTer past or present.

And yes, he is not in your poll. <sigh>

EDIT: forgot to mention that Hinault is the only rider to have won at least one time trial in every tour that he started.

But Merckx only ever rode the GP des Nations once. Hinault was a French cyclist, so probably found it more important than Merckx did. Merckx also rode for an Italian team, so the Italian races were of much importance to the sponsor. He won the Trofeo Baracchi for example 3 times. Hinault definitely is a contender though and should have been in the poll.

 

[Le breton]

Greg Lemond.
His TT in the 1989 TdF give him overall victory. If my recollection is correct he posted the fasted average speed TT in the TdF at the time and since then has only been bettered twice.

The fact that the course was downhill also helped, not just the wind (mentioned earlier).

 

[The Hitch]

I'm not putting him down, Indurain and Merckx were just better. They dominated all kinds of time trials. Cancellara is not the best guy out there in GT time trials(excluding prologues) and GT time trials are the second most prestigious thing in the time trial world.

Why you excluding prologues.

Since when do prologues not count.

And he has won plenty of non prologue tts but you're probably going to start moaning about how 16k or 28k is like a prologue to you.

The difference is Cancellara doesnt peak for GTS. It would be stupid of him to.

He targets other races and anytime he wins a Tour tt vs a fully peaked Contador (2009) or Martin (2010) its impressive.

You have to make allowance for that.

He turns up at the worlds most years (or Olympics in 2008) to show the world he is by far away the best in that discipline, anyway.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I agree Prologues are less relevant here.
I don't agree Canc only showed his dominance in Prologues, of course. At all.

 

[Le breton]

Maître Jacques

Who do you think are some of the best TTers,.

Anquetil far above everybody else.

Funny nobody mentioned Rominger, Zulle, Mottet. Of course Hinault should be counted as well (contrary to most others he was just as good in uphill TTs ). Maybe Bracke, Moser. Somebody rightly mentioned Rivière, but his career was too short.
How about Koblet who did over 135 km (to Agen) alone in the front with Coppi and all the peloton chasing behind?

 

[GWAR79]

I just don´t get how you can compare guys riding 90 + km on steel bike verse 55 km on full carbon in time trial position.

Something like this needs to be broken into pre and post Lemond imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQYQ-E

Lost by a ponytail

 

[Winterfold]

You do know Boardman was a World ROAD TT champion don't you?

Edit: this post for the OP

 

[El Pistolero]

Why you excluding prologues.

Since when do prologues not count.

And he has won plenty of non prologue tts but you're probably going to start moaning about how 16k or 28k is like a prologue to you.

The difference is Cancellara doesnt peak for GTS. It would be stupid of him to.

He targets other races and anytime he wins a Tour tt vs a fully peaked Contador (2009) or Martin (2010) its impressive.

You have to make allowance for that.

He turns up at the worlds most years (or Olympics in 2008) to show the world he is by far away the best in that discipline, anyway.

Cancellara won one long time trial at the Tour. ONE. Never won anything at the Giro and only one long time trial at the Vuelta(that's by modern standards sadly). He loses a lot. The guy doesn't dominate in GT time trials and never will. He doesn't come near guys like Indurain, Merckx, Hinault when it coms to time trials.

Contador rides just as many races as Cancellara before the Tour, so don't give me the "he doesn't peak argument" please. It's getting really old. Unlike you I just don't totally ignore Grand Tour time trials and every time it gets over 40km Cancellara's chances of winning have dropped to a few %.

As for why longer time trials are much more prestigious? Kinda obvious, no? Would you think of Milan-San Remo as a Monument if it was 140km long?

Prologues for me are something different than real time trials. Eric Vanderaerden for example was a prologue specialist, but in the longer time trials not so much.

 

[Martin318is]

Why you excluding prologues.

Since when do prologues not count.

Thats not what he said, Hitch.

Of course they count, he is just observing that in TTs longer than the prologue in GTs, Fabian is not the best TTer. I think you are looking for argument and/or agression in his posts that simply isn't there.

 

[AngusW]

But Merckx only ever rode the GP des Nations once. Hinault was a French cyclist, so probably found it more important than Merckx did. Merckx also rode for an Italian team, so the Italian races were of much importance to the sponsor. He won the Trofeo Baracchi for example 3 times. Hinault definitely is a contender though and should have been in the poll.

You're right, and I've no doubt that Merckx would have won the GP des Nations 5 or more times if he had contested it regularly. It is touted today as an unofficial World Championship of time trialling, but my own opinion is back in the day it was not seen as such, more like a classic for time triallists. Possibly that's why Merckx only entered it once.

Back to Hinault - he is also a Barrachi Trophy winner (his account of winning the race with Moser makes it sound like each was trying their hardest to make the other suffer throughout the race) but like you say the GP des Nations is a race that would have been of importance to the French and Hinault raced on French teams throughout his career.

The one weakness I could see in Merckx's time trialling was uphill time trials of which he did not seem to win any in the Tour.

I base my opinion of Hinault as the best TTer on his consistency in time trials of all distances and terrains for the last 10 years of his career. Here is his win/loss ration of time trials in the Tour:

1978 2 of 4
1979 4 of 5
1980 2 of 3 (withdrew before final time trial)
1981 4 of 4
1982 3 of 4
1984 1 of 4
1985 2 of 4
1986 2 of 3

20 TT wins from 31 starts (64% winning ratio)

Merckx

1969 3 of 4
1970 4 of 5
1971 2 of 2
1972 3 of 3
1974 2 of 3
1975 2 of 4
1977 0 of 5

16 TT wins from 26 starts (61% winning ratio)

 

[El Pistolero]

You're right, and I've no doubt that Merckx would have won the GP des Nations 5 or more times if he had contested it regularly. It is touted today as an unofficial World Championship of time trialling, but my own opinion is back in the day it was not seen as such, more like a classic for time triallists. Possibly that's why Merckx only entered it once.

Back to Hinault - he is also a Barrachi Trophy winner (his account of winning the race with Moser makes it sound like each was trying their hardest to make the other suffer throughout the race) but like you say the GP des Nations is a race that would have been of importance to the French and Hinault raced on French teams throughout his career.

The one weakness I could see in Merckx's time trialling was uphill time trials of which he did not seem to win any in the Tour.

I base my opinion of Hinault as the best TTer on his consistency in time trials of all distances and terrains for the last 10 years of his career. Here is his win/loss ration of time trials in the Tour:

1978 2 of 4
1979 4 of 5
1980 2 of 3 (withdrew before final time trial)
1981 4 of 4
1982 3 of 4
1984 1 of 4
1985 2 of 4
1986 2 of 3

20 TT wins from 31 starts (64% winning ratio)

Merckx

1969 3 of 4
1970 4 of 5
1971 2 of 2
1972 3 of 3
1974 2 of 3
1975 2 of 4
1977 0 of 5

16 TT wins from 26 starts (61% winning ratio)

So it seems Hinault beat Merckx at one aspect of cycling it seems

In 1971 Merckx was a beast in the time trials if you watch old footage though.

 

[danjo007]

YOU CANNOT COMPARE 1 GUY TO ANOTHER IF THEY RACED DIFFERENT ERAS. have a nice day.
interesting but stupid poll.

 

[bridgeman]

JA all the way!

 

[Midnightfright]

So it seems Hinault beat Merckx at one aspect of cycling it seems

In 1971 Merckx was a beast in the time trials if you watch old footage though.

Eddie " john gadret " merckx?

 

[The Hitch]

Contador rides just as many races as Cancellara before the Tour, so don't give me the "he doesn't peak argument" please.
.

Its not about how many races they do before. Thats not how a peak works. Cavendish and Ben Swift went into the TDU having done "just as many races".

Does that mean they were both on the same peak

You may also notice that Contador ends his season at the Tour whereas for Cancellara its just over the halfway point.

So yes the peak argument is essential. Cancellara isnt on top form for the TDF. Contador is.

You might also consider that the long tdf tts come right towards the end of the race. Recovery therefore come much more into the picture.

So Cancellara has a worse recovery. Especially since he hasnt been training at alltitude, doing warm ups, etc just for this race.

Does not make him worse overall at the tt.

And theres the mental endurance. Is it worth it. Cancellara can push himself through hell when theres a monument or a Gold medal at stake. But when youve barely walked out of bed after 4 mountain stages, the GC rider has a GC at stake, his season is on the line, hes been preparing for months just for this race, one can understand why he might go faster, and push himself so much harder than the tt specialist whose not even at his peak and only has a stage win at best to fight for.

I think its got nothing to do with long tts not suiting Cancellara. Mendrisio proves thats not the case.

If you put the prologue on the last Saturday, Cancellara might not win it, and likewise if you put the 50k tt on the opening Sunday, then Cancellara is going to blitz past everyone.

 

[El Pistolero]

Its not about how many races they do before. Thats not how a peak works. Cavendish and Ben Swift went into the TDU having done "just as many races".

Does that mean they were both on the same peak

You may also notice that Contador ends his season at the Tour whereas for Cancellara its just over the halfway point.

So yes the peak argument is essential. Cancellara isnt on top form for the TDF. Contador is.

You might also consider that the long tdf tts come right towards the end of the race. Recovery therefore come much more into the picture.

So Cancellara has a worse recovery. Especially since he hasnt been training at alltitude, doing warm ups, etc just for this race.

Does not make him worse overall at the tt.

And theres the mental endurance. Is it worth it. Cancellara can push himself through hell when theres a monument or a Gold medal at stake. But when youve barely walked out of bed after 4 mountain stages, the GC rider has a GC at stake, his season is on the line, hes been preparing for months just for this race, one can understand why he might go faster, and push himself so much harder than the tt specialist whose not even at his peak and only has a stage win at best to fight for.

I think its got nothing to do with long tts not suiting Cancellara. Mendrisio proves thats not the case.

If you put the prologue on the last Saturday, Cancellara might not win it, and likewise if you put the 50k tt on the opening Sunday, then Cancellara is going to blitz past everyone.

Recovery and mental strength is what separates the boys from the legend. Who says these qualities shouldn't belong to the greatest time trial specialist ever?

And Contador ACTUALLY WINS the races he starts in making your Cavendish/Ben Swift comparison useless. Not my fault that Cavendish is a lazy cyclist during the off-season. Like I said, mental strength is what separates the boys from the legends.

After the Tour Cancellara rides the Vuelta(doing nothing of note usually) and WC. I'd say that after the Tour more than half of his season has passed

 

[The Hitch]

Recovery and mental strength is what separates the boys of the legend. Who says these qualities shouldn't belong to the greatest time trial specialist ever?

Umm, Cancellara does have mental strength.

Unless tting 40k in your beloved Ronde is suddenly something for the weak.

But you need something to push you through a time trial. A Yellow jersey is a far bigger carrot to run after than a stage win, especially if your legs are already crushed.

As for recovery, because its a different age.

The age of people dominating every race is over.

Theres more to cycling than just time trials. Cancellara is not going to waste his career going for stage wins when Worlds, and cobbled classics are going to give him so much more, financially, prestige wise etc.

But if you look at his performances on the tt bike when he is on form, he definately deserves to be up there with the above.

 

[Martin318is]

But you need something to push you through a time trial. A Yellow jersey is a far bigger carrot to run after than a stage win, especially if your legs are already crushed.

Except that the TTs are theoretically the stages that Fabian is there to win. Its ludicrous to suggest that he doesn't start each Tour with a red mark around the TT stages with the intention of winning them. He may not peak as hard as he does for the World Title, but he certainly does aim at those TT stages.

But if you look at his performances on the tt bike when he is on form, he definately deserves to be up there with the above.

Again, not arguing that he isn't WITH the list of other riders. Just saying that just because he is the most recent dominant rider, it does not mean he is the best ever.

Is Vettel the best F1 driver ever (maybe but not yet), Schumey? (Certainly on points and wins etc but there are more races in the modern era and there are arguments that it was the car) What about Fangio then? or Senna? etc, etc, etc.

 

[The Hitch]

Pisti, BTW to illustrate how times have changed I will offer you this little fact.

Cancellaras 2004 time up Alpe d huez was 45 35.

Fausto Coppi time 1952 is 45.22

Thats only 13 seconds off.

Which shows you just how big the gap is between those days and today.

Yes Coppi had a worse bike longer stage but Cancellara was a pup without any aims just riding the mountain to stay in the Tour.

The competition these days is at a so much higher level which makes it more impressive when someone does win a few World tt champs and lots of tts in gts, than it would in those days.

That is why a few more seasons of what he is doing now, could put him up there even though palmares wise the other guys are way ahead of him.

 

[El Pistolero]

Pisti, BTW to illustrate how times have changed I will offer you this little fact.

Cancellaras 2004 time up Alpe d huez was 45 35.

Fausto Coppi time 1952 is 45.22

Thats only 13 seconds off.

Which shows you just how big the gap is between those days and today.

Yes Coppi had a worse bike longer stage but Cancellara was a pup without any aims just riding the mountain to stay in the Tour.

The competition these days is at a so much higher level which makes it more impressive when someone does win a few World tt champs and lots of tts in gts, than it would in those days.

That is why a few more seasons of what he is doing now, could put him up there even though palmares wise the other guys are way ahead of him.

Cancellara would be crying at home if he had to do that Tour He'd get the race neutralized.

Climbing times in the 90s are a lot better than those now. Does that mean cycling is getting back to the fifties again?
That means Indurain is tons better than Cancellara anyway! Good example

Besides no one is naming Coppi, but Merckx, Hinault and Indurain. Let's see Cancellara doing the World Hour record after having ridden ALL the classics, the Giro and the Tour Let's let Cancellara also crash heavily like Merckx did in '69(never was the same after that crash) and we'll see if he breaks the record.

Of course modern training schedules have their affect and make people go faster: but one thing never changes over the centuries and that's talent. Give Eddy Merckx the modern treatment and he'd climbing faster as well.


During Merckx's his era cycling was the most popular sport in Europe besides football perhaps. Clearly you don't understand that being the best time trial specialist isn't the same as being the fastest time trial specialist over 50km(random distance). Speed will always increase because of better equipment, better training schedules, better doping, better road surfaces, etc
But that's not the point of this thread.

 

[The Hitch]

Again, not arguing that he isn't WITH the list of other riders. Just saying that just because he is the most recent dominant rider,

Yes but my posts are clearly directed at Pistolero who said that no way Cancellara can be the best.

it does not mean he is the best ever.

And I said in pretty much every post that I dont think Cancellara is the best ever. Like you, I said that he needs a few more seasons of domination, at least, in order to become that.

Is Vettel the best F1 driver ever (maybe but not yet), Schumey? (Certainly on points and wins etc but there are more races in the modern era and there are arguments that it was the car) What about Fangio then? or Senna? etc, etc, etc

I dont know. I think none of those guys are fit to tie the sholeace of someone who has finished the Tour de France.

By finished, I include those who drive the Mavic neutral service, or appear in the carravan behind.

I smile a little every-time I hear about f1 having some scandal and switch the channel when I see f1 drivers in adverts.

If I start smoking, I will conduct research to find brands that have never sponsored F1 and alternate between them.

Hope that gives everyone a clue as to how I feel about that

But Im sure Libertine Seguros will be quite excited to start a conversation with you on this.

 

[Nearly]

Umm, Cancellara does have mental strength.

Unless tting 40k in your beloved Ronde is suddenly something for the weak.....

++...... just about the most amazing 'time trial' I have seen in recent times! Simply nobody else can do that sort of thing.

Based on last season's form Tony Martin has to be the best currently kicking around unless you put longer TTs in the GTs up on a pedestal in which case you might even have to plug for Cadel Evans as his DS nobbled him on the way to victory in Stage 20 of the TdF this year.

I will stick to Fabs for now!

As for historical comparisons, I won't make a call on those I have not seen but of those I have, and with GT blinkers firmly on, then Indurain, Armstrong & Ullrich in that order. Cancellara is right up there if you take the blinkers off.

 

[nvpacchi]

Pisti, BTW to illustrate how times have changed I will offer you this little fact.

Cancellaras 2004 time up Alpe d huez was 45 35.

Fausto Coppi time 1952 is 45.22

Thats only 13 seconds off.

Which shows you just how big the gap is between those days and today.

Yes Coppi had a worse bike longer stage but Cancellara was a pup without any aims just riding the mountain to stay in the Tour.

The competition these days is at a so much higher level which makes it more impressive when someone does win a few World tt champs and lots of tts in gts, than it would in those days.

That is why a few more seasons of what he is doing now, could put him up there even though palmares wise the other guys are way ahead of him.

The alpe was also unpaved in 1952, making coppi 's ascent all the more impressive.

But I guess that point is moot cause anquetil would beat both.fabian and fausto in a for all the marbles time trial

 

[Choocher]

No Hinault in the poll? Seriously? Get rid of Fignon, Rogers, and Lemond even, but Hinault needs to be in the poll.