Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

[greenedge]

Also Strade Bianche is just a 1.1 race, something a lot of people tend to forget. I don't even think Boonen wants to win that race lol. Long distance asphalt classics? Which one would that be? Milan-San Remo? As if Boonen did not have the capabilities to win that race. He finished on the podium twice already. They ride the same classics every year you know. With the exception of the Amstel Gold Race.

SB is a nice race though, Boonen probably just does not ride it as he does P-N.

Cancellara and Frank crashed last year at AGR though.

 

[El Pistolero]

Being good in the TT doesn't hurt a rider on the cobbles either.

I fail to see what your skill on a time trial bike has to do with Roubaix. Big engine and endurance is what matters in long one day races. It's also important for time trialing, but what makes you think it's only limited to time trials?

There's a reason why of all the time trial specialists only Cancellara and Phinney have any potential at Roubaix.

 

[The Hitch]

I fail to see what your skill on a time trial bike has to do with Roubaix. Big engine and endurance is what matters in long one day races. It's also important for time trialing, but what makes you think it's only limited to time trials?

There's a reason why of all the time trial specialists only Cancellara and Phinney have any potential at Roubaix.

Geraint Thomas.

 

[El Pistolero]

Geraint Thomas.

What has he shown so far in Roubaix?

Roubaix isn't Vlaanderen.

 

[Afrank]

I fail to see what your skill on a time trial bike has to do with Roubaix. Big engine and endurance is what matters in long one day races. It's also important for time trialing, but what makes you think it's only limited to time trials?

There's a reason why of all the time trial specialists only Cancellara and Phinney have any potential at Roubaix.

I'm not saying it is limited to time trials at all. But your post made it sound like being good at the time trial can in no way help a rider be good in Roubaix, when it can. If a rider goes on a solo in Roubaix, being a good time trialist will help them to maintain that gap or even increase it, Cancellara demonstrated this.

(And I'm not saying bike handling, positioning, and endurance don't play as much or greater a role in doing well on the cobbles.)

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not saying it is limited to time trials at all. But your post made it sound like being good at the time trial can in no way help a rider be good in Roubaix, when it can. If a rider goes on a solo in Roubaix, being a good time trialist will help them to maintain that gap or even increase it, Cancellara demonstrated this.

(And I'm not saying bike handling, positioning, and endurance don't play as much or greater a role in doing well on the cobbles.)

Most editions of Roubaix are won solo. Someone can suck in a time trial just because he almost never trains on a time trial bike. Doesn't mean he doesn't have what it takes to ride a solo on a real bike during a classic. I never said that being good in time trials can in no way help you - I said certain aspects that make you good in long classics can also make you good in time trials. You need a big engine for both.

Besides natural talent what makes the difference during a time trial is lot's and lot's of training on your time trial bike, good position on the time trial bike(lot's of science involved with that), motivation and studying the route extensively. And of course the correct mind set. Tony Martin is afraid of riding at high speed over cobbles. I cannot blame him.

Just because you have a good aerodynamic position on a time trial bike or normal bike doesn't mean you can ride over cobbles on a Roubaix bike. 2 different styles. Also at Roubaix there's often a battle for position on the asphalt sections before the pavé. In a time trial you're all alone. Well, mostly anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

What has he shown so far in Roubaix?

Roubaix isn't Vlaanderen.

You said only canc and phinney " have any potential in roubaix".

So g has no.potential in roubaix? He won the u23 version came 2nd in the tdf stage and was ****ing awessome.in flanders last year, but hey no.potential in roubaix if you say so.

btw you do realize he missed this year because he had a more important goal.to focus on. And last year he crashed a bunch of.times but hey, only boonen is allowed.to use bad luck as an excuse for 2011 right?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Cancellara has also never won a mountain stage race in his life. Tirreno-Adriatico 2008 wasn't even Protour that year and only had one tough Muro stage. Tour de Suisse was tailor made for him. Tony Martin was second that year and he's no climber either(but better than Cancellara anyway).

He along with stuey mate ogrady were 2 of the best mountain domestique in the brief leoperd trek days

 

[Afrank]

Most editions of Roubaix are won solo. Someone can suck in a time trial just because he almost never trains on a time trial bike. Doesn't mean he doesn't have what it takes to ride a solo on a real bike during a classic. I never said that being good in time trials can in no way help you - I said certain aspects that make you good in long classics can also make you good in time trials. You need a big engine for both.

Besides natural talent what makes the difference during a time trial is lot's and lot's of training on your time trial bike, good position on the time trial bike(lot's of science involved with that), motivation and studying the route extensively. And of course the correct mind set. Tony Martin is afraid of riding at high speed over cobbles. I cannot blame him.

Just because you have a good aerodynamic position on a time trial bike or normal bike doesn't mean you can ride over cobbles on a Roubaix bike. 2 different styles. Also at Roubaix there's often a battle for position on the asphalt sections before the pavé. In a time trial you're all alone. Well, mostly anyway.

Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.

 

[Wallace]

Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.

Being a great time trialist has always been one of the things needed for the cobbled races. Moser seems like a good example of this. Having a sprint is good too. And cyclo-cross skills also come in handy (see De Vlaeminck, Erik. His brother Roger was also pretty good). It's hard to make a case that any particular type of rider is the right type for cobbles--you need a lot of skills--bike handling (I would pay a lot of money to see Andy S. in the Arenberg), power, tactical intelligence, the ability to eat a lot of mud, etc. The tiny guys who can fly up mountains tend not to do so well in Belgium.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBagHWwuYsk

I can give you many more examples, but you only asked for one.

ok then point to me exactly,where boonen drops(!) cancellara

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Bradley Wiggins can't ride on cobbles, neither can Tony Martin or David Millar. Roubaix isn't about time trial skills, but bike handling on cobbles, positioning and a lot of endurance.

Boonen can win races solo, in a small group sprint and in a bunch sprint. Cancellara can only win solo.

Cancellara only rode one year in the U23 ranks(and even then only a few races), so that argument makes no sense. He was 23 years old when he got fourth in Roubaix. He rode his first Ronde van Vlaanderen at age 22.

Boonen got second once in LBL for espoirs back in 2001.

Cancellara has also never won a mountain stage race in his life. Tirreno-Adriatico 2008 wasn't even Protour that year and only had one tough Muro stage. Tour de Suisse was tailor made for him. Tony Martin was second that year and he's no climber either(but better than Cancellara anyway).

Also Strade Bianche is just a 1.1 race, something a lot of people tend to forget. I don't even think Boonen wants to win that race lol. Long distance asphalt classics? Which one would that be? Milan-San Remo? As if Boonen did not have the capabilities to win that race. He finished on the podium twice already. They ride the same classics every year you know. With the exception of the Amstel Gold Race.

we all saw how wlel andy schleck rode on cobbles so yeah the whole cobble thing is very much overrated and this is often said by riders as well. tour of flanders for instance is 100% race of placing yourself before the climbs and a bit of hilly skills with large chances of injury. that's why they have such low level of racing fields

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Being a great time trialist has always been one of the things needed for the cobbled races. Moser seems like a good example of this. Having a sprint is good too. And cyclo-cross skills also come in handy (see De Vlaeminck, Erik. His brother Roger was also pretty good). It's hard to make a case that any particular type of rider is the right type for cobbles--you need a lot of skills--bike handling (I would pay a lot of money to see Andy S. in the Arenberg), power, tactical intelligence, the ability to eat a lot of mud, etc. The tiny guys who can fly up mountains tend not to do so well in Belgium.

you are coming with examples of 50 years ago. the sport has evolved and is nothing like that anymore. pls explain to me a tiny guy like boogerd being one of the best in flanders, as he was the first time he ever did that race. it's all about placing, back then we had much smaller pelotons and the race was already stretched in the beginning. now everyone is waiting

 

[El Pistolero]

Simple, he wasn't one of the best in Flanders. More like Bettini. You guys just think Boogerd was good at something. If what you say is true, Bettini would have won Vlaanderen at least once in his career. Or podium... Because we all know Bettini >>> Boogerd.

ok then point to me exactly,where boonen drops(!) cancellara

Cancellara is in the group and can't follow Boonen. Ergo he's getting dropped.

You said only canc and phinney " have any potential in roubaix".

So g has no.potential in roubaix? He won the u23 version came 2nd in the tdf stage and was ****ing awessome.in flanders last year, but hey no.potential in roubaix if you say so.

btw you do realize he missed this year because he had a more important goal.to focus on. And last year he crashed a bunch of.times but hey, only boonen is allowed.to use bad luck as an excuse for 2011 right?

I ask you again, what the hell has Geraint ever done during a one day classic? He's only been good in one race during a classic. And he wasn't "****ing awesome", he was just good. So was Staf Scheirlinckx.

If Geraint Thomas has any potential at Roubaix he has never shown it hence I did not include him. Come back next year.

Boonen got second in the U23 version of LBL. Does this mean he has potential for LBL? Strange argument you have there. How many people who won Roubaix for espoirs have gone on to win the real thing by the way?

2nd in a Tour stage. Yeah, that's good. But it was on the easy pavé sectors of Roubaix and 95% of the peloton got eliminated early on because of crashes. Further more, Cancellara was slaving for Andy Schleck and not riding for him self and Boonen wasn't there. Ballan had his bad year and Pippo wasn't there either.

Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.

Did you even read my post?

"Correct mind set, Tony Martin is afraid of going over cobbles at suicide pace."

Just because you have the correct mind set for a time trial doesn't mean you have what it takes to ride over the cobbles at "suicide pace". Most of the riders that won Roubaix solo aren't time trial specialists. O'Grady, Vansummeren, Boonen, Museeuw, etc

we all saw how wlel andy schleck rode on cobbles so yeah the whole cobble thing is very much overrated and this is often said by riders as well. tour of flanders for instance is 100% race of placing yourself before the climbs and a bit of hilly skills with large chances of injury. that's why they have such low level of racing fields

Peter Sagan, Philippe Gilbert, Fabian Cancellara, Tom Boonen, Greg van Avermaet, Bjorn Leukemans, Sylvain Chavanel, Edvald Boasson Hagen, Matthew Goss, Filippo Pozzato, Alessandro Ballan, Thor Hushovd, Stijn Devolder, Nick Nuyens, Niki Terpstra, Thomas Voeckler, Maxim Iglinsky, etc ride the Ronde van Vlaanderen pretty much every year with a few exceptions. How is that a low level of racing field? Because your little buddy Henao isn't riding? Yeah, that'll make a difference.

And which riders are you talking about that say cobbles are overrated?

 

[El Pistolero]

ok then point to me exactly,where boonen drops(!) cancellara

Cancellara is in the group and can't follow Boonen. Ergo he's getting dropped.

 

[El Pistolero]

You said only canc and phinney " have any potential in roubaix".

So g has no.potential in roubaix? He won the u23 version came 2nd in the tdf stage and was ****ing awessome.in flanders last year, but hey no.potential in roubaix if you say so.

btw you do realize he missed this year because he had a more important goal.to focus on. And last year he crashed a bunch of.times but hey, only boonen is allowed.to use bad luck as an excuse for 2011 right?

I ask you again, what the hell has Geraint ever done during a one day classic? He's only been good in one race during a classic. And he wasn't "****ing awesome", he was just good. So was Staf Scheirlinckx.

If Geraint Thomas has any potential at Roubaix he has never shown it hence I did not include him. Come back next year.

Boonen got second in the U23 version of LBL. Does this mean he has potential for LBL? Strange argument you have there. How many people who won Roubaix for espoirs have gone on to win the real thing by the way?

2nd in a Tour stage. Yeah, that's good. But it was on the easy pavé sectors of Roubaix and 95% of the peloton got eliminated early on because of crashes. Further more, Cancellara was slaving for Andy Schleck and not riding for him self and Boonen wasn't there. Ballan had his bad year and Pippo wasn't there either.

 

[El Pistolero]

Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.

Did you even read my post?

"Correct mind set, Tony Martin is afraid of going over cobbles at suicide pace."

Just because you have the correct mind set for a time trial doesn't mean you have what it takes to ride over the cobbles at "suicide pace". Most of the riders that won Roubaix solo aren't time trial specialists. O'Grady, Vansummeren, Boonen, Museeuw, etc

 

[Echoes]

Being a great time trialist has always been one of the things needed for the cobbled races. Moser seems like a good example of this.

Yes, good example.

Hinault's example is even better for me. He apparently hated the race and yet managed to get it because of his tremendous power. Same for Merckx actually. Well as matter of fact, Hinault liked Paris-Roubaix. The hatred was a matter for journalist to dissert on.

And cyclo-cross skills also come in handy (see De Vlaeminck, Erik. His brother Roger was also pretty good).

Roger himself would rather debunk this. It means that Nys or Liboton can also be great Roubaisians and Merckx a good cyclocross rider. He would say. Actually Paris-Roubaix is for heavyweights and cyclocross for lightweights and he was the perfect balance between the two. Of course his technical skills were an advantage but not decisive.

The best crossers in history are rather climbers/Ardennes riders when they are roadies. See Robic, van der Poel sr, Zweifel, Breu or even Eric De Vlaeminck. Roger is an exception.

you are coming with examples of 50 years ago. the sport has evolved and is nothing like that anymore.

True. In those days, the cobbles were in much worse condition than today which means that technical skills were even more required. riders often had to cross sections on foot. Now the day before Paris-Roubaix they are cleaning it up with bulldozers or whatever and the friends of Paris-Roubaix did a great job in making the sections safe.

So today, technicality is even less required and power is more. Cancellara, Phinney and Boom are perfect examples. Or even EBH.

pls explain to me a tiny guy like boogerd being one of the best in flanders, as he was the first time he ever did that race.

Very simply. Because Flanders is not Roubaix.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Apart from Cancellara, non of the winners of the last 25 years was a great Time Trialist. (The last one that could classify as one, should have been Vanderaerden in 87)

You need power, not TT skills.

 

[Echoes]

Aren't tt's the best indication of the power and/or endurance (and versatility) of a rider?

You're right. Vanderaerden was the last before Cancellara but the tt specialists of these last decades did not even show up at Paris-Roubaix out of lack of interest, I think.

But it's starting to change now, I think. Phinney is definitely a potential winner. Boom can also do great, for sure.

 

[GPdesAmeriques]

Boonen - because he rides Paris-Roubaix without gloves.

 

[Afrank]

Did you even read my post?

"Correct mind set, Tony Martin is afraid of going over cobbles at suicide pace."

Just because you have the correct mind set for a time trial doesn't mean you have what it takes to ride over the cobbles at "suicide pace". Most of the riders that won Roubaix solo aren't time trial specialists. O'Grady, Vansummeren, Boonen, Museeuw, etc

Did you read mine?

Time trialing is more than just lots of training on a TT bike, being aero, and knowing the route. You have to have the strength and mentality to keep yourself going at a hard pace (close to, at, or even above your max) over a given distance. And this is the part of time trialing that will help a rider when they go solo in a cobbled race.

Having the mentality to go hard of cobbles is just something I slipped in there, having the strength to do this is more what my post was about. Some riders can't do this, see Schleck. Not to say a rider that is not a TT specialist can't go solo on the cobbles as well, but the better a rider is at doing this in the TT the more it will help them if they try to go solo.

Apart from Cancellara, non of the winners of the last 25 years was a great Time Trialist. (The last one that could classify as one, should have been Vanderaerden in 87)

You need power, not TT skills.

It's not TT "skills" that can help a rider in a cobbled race.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Aren't tt's the best indication of the power and/or endurance (and versatility) of a rider?

In my mind yes. Mental strength as well.
Now for positioning, explosiveness/sprinting and general race understanding it tells us very little naturally.

Bike racer:
Cancellara > Boonen

Cobbles racer:
Boonen > Cancellara

 

[El Pistolero]

In my mind yes. Mental strength as well.
Now for positioning, explosiveness/sprinting and general race understanding it tells us very little naturally.

Bike racer:
Cancellara > Boonen

Cobbles racer:
Boonen > Cancellara

He's great at ruining bike races. *cough* Tour de France *cough*

 

[Dazed and Confused]

He's great at ruining bike races. *cough* Tour de France *cough*

yeah, but the 200 other clowns should have shut down the one man show.