Big George testified he and lance supplied each other with EPO

[Scansorial]

Covered before, but to summarize from my experience being on a Grand Jury. Yes, witnesses can take the 5th. They can be offered immunity if the questioning DA wants the testimony more than charges against the witness. If the witness takes the immunity, he must answer the questions, and answer truthfully. If he does not answer truthfully, he can be charged with perjury. This is what got Bonds, who had immunity. If they refuse answer despite being given immunity, they can be thrown in jail for contempt. This is what happened to Anderson in the Bonds case.

If a witness does not take immunity, they can't be forced to answer questions. They can still be indicted based on what other witnesses have said.

Investigations usually start at the bottom, where immunity is given more freely to get information on higher ups. Someone who is a real potential target isn't called in until there is enough information to ask meaningful questions that will lead somewhere, either to admissions of own behavior, or actions of higher ups.

Lance would not be called until the case against him is very solid, and they thought he could she light on those higher up the chain than him. That might be anywhere, and I won't speculate.

I think Armstrong probably would be called at some point, both to try to get others, and to see if he was going to fall into a perjury trap.

-dB

Great post. Thanks for that.

Let's say George decided against immunity and just used the 5th for all questions. Do you think they could have threatened him with any of the money laundering and the other charges we've been hearing about?

I just get the feeling that he wouldn't talk unless his back was really against the wall.

 

[Allen H]

Covered before, but to summarize from my experience being on a Grand Jury. Yes, witnesses can take the 5th. They can be offered immunity if the questioning DA wants the testimony more than charges against the witness. If the witness takes the immunity, he must answer the questions, and answer truthfully. If he does not answer truthfully, he can be charged with perjury. This is what got Bonds, who had immunity. If they refuse answer despite being given immunity, they can be thrown in jail for contempt. This is what happened to Anderson in the Bonds case.

If a witness does not take immunity, they can't be forced to answer questions. They can still be indicted based on what other witnesses have said.

Investigations usually start at the bottom, where immunity is given more freely to get information on higher ups. Someone who is a real potential target isn't called in until there is enough information to ask meaningful questions that will lead somewhere, either to admissions of own behavior, or actions of higher ups.

-dB

Testimony leaked from the Bonds grand jury too - sort of a PR battle played out to "squeeze" who the feds really want.

I think it was telling that GH denied talking to 60 Minutes, he didn't actually deny what the report said. But Phil of course characterized GH's tweet as "denying the charges" in today's stage coverage.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It was so exhilarating when the GH news came out yesterday.
Since George's tweet, things have seemed to quiet down to a low murmur where his confession is concerned. I realize that he must be downplaying this and trying to stay out of the craziness, but now it feels like maybe this didn't really happen....

Is there a source and is it to be trusted? Will this become clear after the 60 minutes tomorrow?

Please tell me it's still for real...

Worse would be this:
CBS has/had to remove all things where Hincapie is mentioned during "60 minutes". That´s why everybody is quiet: Armstrong was told by his lawyers to shut up, while they worked against CBS with injunctions.

And the worst part being: Some bribed "friend" of Armstrong leaked this "Hincapie-Thing", so that his attorneys could counter CBS.

It´s all theory, so i hope i am wrong.... Unluckily i was right with Mosquera, Astarloza, Contador and Garcia Dapena....

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Testimony leaked from the Bonds grand jury too - sort of a PR battle played out to "squeeze" who the feds really want.

I think it was telling that GH denied talking to 60 Minutes, he didn't actually deny what the report said. But Phil of course characterized GH's tweet as "denying the charges" in today's stage coverage.

Words of insightful wisdom from a clown who is counting on the 'anglo-angle' to keep signing the cheques.

Seriously, with the ammount of *ss-covering Phil's been doing for the last decade+, he should have knee-pads and bib permanently bonded to his body.

If I hear 'suitcase of courage' one more time, I'm going to puke. What a d*uche.

 

[clydesdale]

As an aside, another board I've been a long term member of had a thread discussing whether it could be agreed upon that Lance cheated. Literally half of the responses are ones of support clinging to the never tested positive defense. There could be video evidence and Lance himself confessing and a lot of his supporters will stand by him.

It's depressing.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Interesting angle Foxy, and I sure hope that you are wrong. When things start to get too quiet it sometimes seems an indication of no good...
Lance was uncharacteristically quiet today and after the GH news.

I'm guessing there are some behind-the-scenes threats and bargaining going on. It would make sense that LA's camp is trying to gag as much as possible.

Hopefully there will be plenty of pertinent info revealed tomorrow...

 

[ManInFull]

As an aside, another board I've been a long term member of had a thread discussing whether it could be agreed upon that Lance cheated. Literally half of the responses are ones of support clinging to the never tested positive defense. There could be video evidence and Lance himself confessing and a lot of his supporters will stand by him.

It's depressing.

Some people simply can't be rational about this. However, I think having someone like Hincappie state to a GJ that he and Lance doped will significantly affect the opinion of most people. Lance and his lawyers can't attack GH's credibility. That's all they are doing to TH and to FL. It's as if a liar can never tell the truth.

 

[ManInFull]

I'm guessing there are some behind-the-scenes threats and bargaining going on. It would make sense that LA's camp is trying to gag as much as possible.

Hopefully there will be plenty of pertinent info revealed tomorrow...

I know that 60 Minutes wanted to interview Lance. But, what's the point? He is going to attack the credibility of 2 of the 3 guys and he will say that he has never failed a drug test. I don't think we need to hear that.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Interesting angle Foxy, and I sure hope that you are wrong. When things start to get too quiet it sometimes seems an indication of no good...
Lance was uncharacteristically quiet today and after the GH news.

I'm guessing there are some behind-the-scenes threats and bargaining going on. It would make sense that LA's camp is trying to gag as much as possible.

Hopefully there will be plenty of pertinent info revealed tomorrow...

You live in USA? If so, keep me/us updated live tomorrow. I really hope nothing is cut out when Hincapie is mentioned. I hope the lawyers of CBS have balls, so 60 minutes isn´t backpedalling.

It seems the Hincapie-Story hit the news too early. Novitsky must be real annoyed.

To be honest i enjoyed it too yesterday. But Armstrong is teflon... i am deeply concerned.

 

[clydesdale]

Some people simply can't be rational about this. However, I think having someone like Hincappie state to a GJ that he and Lance doped will significantly affect the opinion of most people. Lance and his lawyers can't attack GH's credibility. That's all they are doing to TH and to FL. It's as if a liar can never tell the truth.

That's true GH's admission must've made some dent. I agree with the article posted a while back, Cycling can't begin to attempt to move on to a cleaner future without Lance going down and people coming to terms with this.

That includes an assumption that cycling wants a cleaner future, I grant you.

 

[MarkvW]

As an aside, another board I've been a long term member of had a thread discussing whether it could be agreed upon that Lance cheated. Literally half of the responses are ones of support clinging to the never tested positive defense. There could be video evidence and Lance himself confessing and a lot of his supporters will stand by him.

It's depressing.

I get it now! One person is depressed because another person holds an incorrect belief about something that really doesn't matter. This is like religion!

 

[indurain666]

I am a bit surprised that the omerta crumbled relatively easily (ok, it took a year but this investigation penetrated a lot deeper than I expected at the start).

A lesson for the future?

Yes: never use federal $$ to buy drugs

 

[clydesdale]

I get it now! One person is depressed because another person holds an incorrect belief about something that really doesn't matter. This is like religion!

Not one other person. I much larger group than I would have anticipated, that's more the issue. I see your point though and I suppose you're not wrong...bigger issues in the world and all that.

 

[mewmewmew13]

You live in USA? If so, keep me/us updated live tomorrow. I really hope nothing is cut out when Hincapie is mentioned. I hope the lawyers of CBS have balls, so 60 minutes isn´t backpedalling.

It seems the Hincapie-Story hit the news too early. Novitsky must be real annoyed.

To be honest i enjoyed it too yesterday. But Armstrong is teflon... i am deeply concerned.

Yes, I live in Colorado. I will be looking forward to getting on the forum after the broadcast. I'll have to check the Mountain DTime as it usually is an hour off the Pacific and eastern times. I would think that there will be a full youtube or online version after it's shown...there must be some way to get it to the European audience I think. Some posters here must have more skills than I in this area.

And I too am concerned about Armstrong's connections and worried that Novitsky is not happy with too much info at this time. I hope it is not turned into a media circus that disrupts the forward motion of justice.

 

[yourwelcome]

I get it now! One person is depressed because another person holds an incorrect belief about something that really doesn't matter. This is like religion!

Admittedly many here sound unhealthily emotionally invested in this case, but isn't it a bit harsh to say that it's merely an 'incorrect belief that does not matter'?

For any reasonably socialised person, it probably ought to be depressing to some degree to see fraud and bullying being rewarded.

Just my view.

 

[dbrower]

Great post. Thanks for that.

Let's say George decided against immunity and just used the 5th for all questions. Do you think they could have threatened him with any of the money laundering and the other charges we've been hearing about?

I just get the feeling that he wouldn't talk unless his back was really against the wall.

If they want the testimony enough, they will give him immunity (except from perjury) whether he wants it or not. Then they will ask him questions about things they can verify in other ways that incriminate him in stuff he wants that immunity from, and doesn't want to perjure himself about. Then the dam breaks.

I'd guess GH has immunity and doesn't want it messed up, so he is not saying nothing to nobody until it comes out on its own. Where the leaked information comes from is anyone's guess. Speculating, it might come from a later witnesses' recap of his testimony to someone, which included things like "we heard from another rider that..." where "another rider" could only have been GH. Or the question to another witness might actually have said "Hincapie", and such an attribution might have been true or false.

It's not uncommon in police interrogations for the cop to say "we heard from your partner that...", where the partner has said no such thing, and the cop is lying to fool the person being questioned. I don't know if that's true in a Grand Jury -- I did not notice that happen, and it might be prohibited.

But, given GH's non-denial denial, it's reasonable to balance the probabilities and think he did spill.

-dB

 

[JA.Tri]

Testimony leaked from the Bonds grand jury too - sort of a PR battle played out to "squeeze" who the feds really want.

I think it was telling that GH denied talking to 60 Minutes, he didn't actually deny what the report said. But Phil of course characterized GH's tweet as "denying the charges" in today's stage coverage.

SBS (TV station in Australia) was covering Giro live last night...commentator was almost verbatim on same issue. I was left thinking...you idiot.

I had taken it as: GH was NOT denying charges. He was simply playing his cards as close to his chest as he could...given his GJ testimony has apparently been leaked.

While I have enjoyed hearing of the likely support GH's testimony lends to the LA investigation...I am concerned (as are others) about the possible negative ramifications of same.

I am disappointed (but not surprised) at the spin that the SBS commentator and Dave McKenzie have placed on this recent news!

 

[MarkvW]

Admittedly many here sound unhealthily emotionally invested in this case, but isn't it a bit harsh to say that it's merely an 'incorrect belief that does not matter'?

For any reasonably socialised person, it probably ought to be depressing to some degree to see fraud and bullying being rewarded.

Just my view.

I'm with you on the sporting and financial rewards. Armstrong's receipt of those rewards bothers me. But I'm not invested in what other people think about Lance. They're entitled to their own opinion and there is no way that opinion can negatively impact me or the people I care about.

But this really is like religion to the devout haters of this forum. One of the other rewards Lance has wrongfully obtained (the root of all the others) is social approval. The haters believe that Lance's social approval is wrongfully obtained and they want to see Lance deprived of that social approval.

Religions often operate the same way. One religious group is convinced that the other religious group is unworthy of social approval. When a religious group is convinced that a different religious group is wrong, they sometimes try to bring that other religious group down by trying to convert members of that other religion.

The Lance-haters want to take Lance's social approval away from him. They say they want justice, but they really want to convert as many people as they can to the active dislike of Lance. They want everybody to hate Lance as much as they do--because converting Lance lovers to Lance haters hurts Lance. On this forum, I've seen posters relate the "gallows" to Bruyneel and Navy SEAL kill squads to Armstrong. The same people who use those vile metaphors turn around and talk justice . . ..

Trying to convert somebody to your religion is just fine, but the violent or aggressive religious fervor gets to be a bit much sometimes. After all, this is all about a bunch of geeks (who generally don't get paid that much), who make a living eating, sleeping, doping and riding bikes.

I guess these people are true fans, just like some true believers are fanatics.

But I must say that it is wonderful to make this little rant on a day that Lance Armstrong got a MAJOR comeuppance. If that makes me a hypocrite, I can deal with it!! ))

 

[webvan]

SBS (TV station in Australia) was covering Giro live last night...commentator was almost verbatim on same issue. I was left thinking...you idiot.

I had taken it as: GH was NOT denying charges. He was simply playing his cards as close to his chest as he could...given his GJ testimony has apparently been leaked.

While I have enjoyed hearing of the likely support GH's testimony lends to the LA investigation...I am concerned (as are others) about the possible negative ramifications of same.

I am disappointed (but not surprised) at the spin that the SBS commentator and Dave McKenzie have placed on this recent news!

Let's put it this way, if we know, they know x2 (it's their job to follow cycling and they hear the stories firsthand), so they have a vested interest in hoping for the best as they would probably have to justify themselves (at least to themselves) once the sh*t hits the fan.

 

[D-Queued]

... (speculation?) Armstrong was told by his lawyers to shut up, while they worked against CBS with injunctions.

...

Armstrong being told what to do by his lawyers? And, listening to them?

Nope, that scenario isn't plausible.

Dave.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Interesting post, MarkW. One could replace the word "haters' with "fanboys' and likely draw the same conclusion.

But Armstrong is teflon... i am deeply concerned.

Is he that teflon? When you think about it, Richard Nixon crumbled under less evidence and pressure than this.

 

[JA.Tri]

Let's put it this way, if we know, they know x2 (it's their job to follow cycling and they hear the stories firsthand), so they have a vested interest in hoping for the best as they would probably have to justify themselves (at least to themselves) once the sh*t hits the fan.

I used "you idiot" in the vernacular. I agree with your suggestion. I was ****** that they were disseminating a view (untruth in my view) that was likely to be misleading to the general viewing audience. I admit I do not know whether it was "spin", unfortunate mis-interpretation, lie, fan-boyism...or something else.

Whatever it was, it was poor journalism (if M Tomalaris or D McKenzie can be appropriately described as journalists).

 

[JA.Tri]

trolling bike websites

While I am (as ever) astonished at the degree of denial still being posted...

There is a trend towards former LA aficionados accepting the possibility/probability that LA doped.

Unfortunately a significant number (minority fortunately) of these are apologists. This observation leaves me concerned that the struggle for "the hearts and minds" (yes my hyperbole) is a long way from over. A bit like a mutating virus, you think you have it licked and it morphs!

 

[curium]

Just read an article in the Sunday Times where they state that their litigation settlement with La may be reviewed at the conclusion of the federal investigation.

Anyone got a list of the litigations undertaken by Lance? This could get expensive for him depending on the outcome of the feds investigation

 

[MarkvW]

Interesting post, MarkW. One could replace the word "haters' with "fanboys' and likely draw the same conclusion.

Is he that teflon? When you think about it, Richard Nixon crumbled under less evidence and pressure than this.

I haven't interacted with enough of the Apostles of Lance to compare. I have one colleague (with whom I haven't spoken since before the Floyd revelations) whom no amount of persuading could convince. She'd just fall back on "nobody who went through cancer would do that" and that would be the end of the discussion. The Apostles of Lance appear to be more defensive than offensive, though.

Nixon only crumbled because the impeachment votes were there. I honestly don't think he would have resigned if the Republicans would have backed him. He was a very tough fighter. Nixon quit when things were hopeless. Lance isn't anywhere near hopeless yet.

This week's revelations have opened the floodgates of criticism for Lance. The doping that was pretty much obvious before is now probably provable beyond a reasonable doubt. I think Lance is now completely unable to defend his reputation in court. Its a media free-for-all. We'll see how Lance's teflon coating holds up in the next few months when Lance gets to experience firsthand the second part of the 'build 'em up, knock em down, rehabilitate 'em' storyline. The attacks on Lance really begin now.