Bin Laden dead

[auscyclefan94]

Can someone tell me why Americans feel the need to celebrate on the streets because Bin Laden is dead?

This question really does baffle me.

 

[Astana1]

Israel's biggest critics lie within Israel. I don't think it's always anti-semetic to attribute terrorism to the Palestinian tragedy. In alot of ways Israel has failed the civilized world because we always expected them to be one of the responsible adults in the region but time and time again they have made matters worse.

But... it's a total fallacy to say that Bin Laden declared a jihad because of Palestine. Bin Laden declared a jihad because the West sent military forces to defend Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden wanted to raise his own Muslim Army to do this but Saudi Arabia really didn't take him seriously. Bin Laden viewed the presence of infidel armies protecting the holy land as blasphemous and he declared war.

Blaming the Bin Laden's jihad on Israel is just opportunistic scapegoating...

All of this is out there for you to see. There are plenty of rational and unbiased journalists that have documented this. You can see Bin Laden say this himself in his messages. It's all pretty clear and unambiguous.

 

[Astana1]

This same (terrible) problem within the Arab-Muslim world, is also the one that hasn't allowed them to progress and join the civil international community, which has of recent times incubated the likes of Osama and co. You'd think our intelligent leaders would understand their views as being truly anachronistic and a reflection of the same problem within the Arab countries from the obverse side of the coin.

Pretty hard to advance the progress of your civilization when your most intelligent people are praying 5 times a day.

Minimal exposure to the enlightenment is a root cause, but they have had more than enough opportunity since then.

Right now we're watching them squander the greatest natural resouce known to mankind. Imagine what the place would have been like if they had used the wealth generated by oil to build their nations instead of using it to pad the bank accounts of the few.

The average middle class Saudi needs to work two jobs just to make ends meet. Meanwhile they have like 6,000 princes who basically don't have to work.

Circumstance didn't create this status quo. This path was chosen.

This is what is so great about the Arab Spring. The people are taking matters into their own hands and choosing a new path.

 

[L'arriviste]

So, at last they've either killed him or the avatar of him they used to roll out whenever anyone challenged the status quo.

Try as I might, I can't feel much good about it. All that I can see for certain in the last ten years of so-called "Western" foreign policy is that you cannot believe anybody anymore. Not governments, not the media, nobody.

Bin Laden is/was a totem for a generation of cretinous elder ideologues. For people who couldn't conceive of any organised "other" without a single figurehead in the vanguard.

The culture of fear and loathing and the ingrained interests are what particularly disgust me. We're still stuck with them now more than ever. And it's nearly Newtonian. For every benighted terrorist, there's a bigoted redneck. For every bloodless coup, there's a minefield of oil bargaining.

I always have "hope", but it's not under a fancy image of Obama.

 

[Astana1]

why dont you address what he said? oh wait you cant as you dont know how.... childish response shows your lack of critical thinking ability when in doubt throw insults or change subject.

Not if I view his verbose accusation as a childish claim myself.

If you can't draw a distinction between the deliberate targeting and disregard for innocent life and the accidental killing of civilians then that is not my problem, I am never going to change his mind. Not worth the time and the effort.

The denial of that distinction is just being intellectually dishonest.

And... when terrorists deliberately hide themselves in populated areas because they know that their presence will cause the loss of innocent life due to collateral damage then the blood is really on their hands.

Has the US done some really messed up stuff? Of course. I'm not blinkered. We've made mistakes. Going all the way back to the Mexican War and even before then, our national direction has been attempted to be hijacked by bad men.

I may not be crazy about the President's domestic policies, but his international outlook is spot on in my book.

 

[Astana1]

Spoken by one with a firm grip on reality. Clearly your intelligence would resolve all the problems of this world. If only you could also see those which are not merely cozy and reassuring to your lil'provincial safe-haven.

In my world I see ten years past, 919,967 dead in two and a half wars and 1,188,263,000,000 dollars later: and now the USA has killed Bin Laden. Excuse me, but can you understand why I'm not throwing a party?

I'm not throwing a party either. I don't believe this is some sort of fatal blow to Al Queda.

Ultimately the fatal blow will come when the Muslim world advances itself by rejecting theocratic and autocratic rule. But it needs to be a decision that comes from within. It can't be imposed.

You look at the reaction in the Muslim world to OBL's death. Most of the younger people had already rejected Al Queda's ideology. I have no idea what it took to get that to happen but I am glad it did.

 

[Astana1]

...really hate to rain on your parade but outside of some rah rah segments of US society most of the world agrees with some version of Churchill's view...and given the historical record and the last decade of US actions he is much righter than not...yes, his is a rather strong statement, but the general thrust of his argument is quite defensible...

Cheers

blutto

Hate to rain on your parade... but by Churchill's logic. Anyone in the west, anyone who does business in the west, is a "little eichmann".

You buy stuff, you pay taxes to your goverment. Good heavens every time you breathe you're probably killing an innocent person, through some sort Ward Churchill imperialist butterfly effect.

Don't know where you live or what you do. But there's a fair chance that includes you. You're on western cycling website that pays taxes to western government that funds a "war machine" that kills supposedly innocent "freedom fighters".

You're "little eichmann" too.

 

[Stingray34]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/iconic-us-brands-on-bin-laden-shopping-list-20110504-1e77i.html

Osama liked his sweet drinks. It explains his furious anger at the USA: he hated New Coke.

 

[andy1234]

The US government needs an enemy that threatens the American way of life.

It doesnt matter if the enemy is Russian, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese (insert bad guys here),.....

The us against them scenarion has been played out many times,with many different enemies. If the current enemy is ever eradicated, it will be replaced by a new one that demends ever more vigilance and dedication to the cause.

The genius, however, of invoking the current enemy is that there can be no clearly defined end to a terrorist threat.

The story of an enemy hiding under the bed, that only your armed forces can protect against, enables the government the role of protector and Homeland Security blanket.

A good patriot understands that every time an enemy is vanquished, it justifies their faith in the regime they live under.

No wonder they feel the need to wrap themselves in the stars and stripes and dance in the streets.

 

[Astana1]

The US government needs an enemy that threatens the American way of life.

It doesnt matter if the enemy is Russian, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese (insert bad guys here),.....

The us against them scenarion has been played out many times,with many different enemies. If the current enemy is ever eradicated, it will be replaced by a new one that demends ever more vigilance and dedication to the cause.

The genius, however, of invoking the current enemy is that there can be no clearly defined end to a terrorist threat.

The story of an enemy hiding under the bed, that only your armed forces can protect against, enables the government the role of protector and Homeland Security blanket.

A good patriot understands that every time an enemy is vanquished, it justifies their faith in the regime they live under.

No wonder they feel the need to wrap themselves in the stars and stripes and dance in the streets.

And you need us. Otherwise you would have nothing to ***** about.

 

[patricknd]

I don't see how you can say that was all off topic, it indeed is a cross section of what is wrong in the middle east. Massive land grab followed by years and years of strife. Yes there are other big problems that have nothing to do with this, but we would be a whole lot better off if we would have given them Texas.

or we might give the rest of y'all away. we have guns, remember?

 

[andy1234]

And you need us. Otherwise you would have nothing to ***** about.

Well, there is always Armstrong...

 

[Astana1]

Well, there is always Armstrong...

Well, I ***** about Armstrong too.

 

[Anonymous]

The US government needs an enemy that threatens the American way of life.

It doesnt matter if the enemy is Russian, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese (insert bad guys here),.....

The us against them scenarion has been played out many times,with many different enemies. If the current enemy is ever eradicated, it will be replaced by a new one that demends ever more vigilance and dedication to the cause.

The genius, however, of invoking the current enemy is that there can be no clearly defined end to a terrorist threat.

The story of an enemy hiding under the bed, that only your armed forces can protect against, enables the government the role of protector and Homeland Security blanket.

A good patriot understands that every time an enemy is vanquished, it justifies their faith in the regime they live under.

No wonder they feel the need to wrap themselves in the stars and stripes and dance in the streets.

very well put.

 

[Clearly Unstable]

Hell, we make awesome bombs and we just love to use them. If only they we all painted red/while and blue with stars/stripes.


Coming to a country near you soon!

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Can someone tell me why Americans feel the need to celebrate on the streets because Bin Laden is dead?

This question really does baffle me.

Thank you for your polite question. I'm American who is not celebrating on the streets. Here's my take on those who are... most of them you see are young college students. Most of them are probably looking for a reason to party and have nothing better to do at the time. The working class who has to get up at 4:00 for another days work doesn't have the time, energy, or desire to waste time that way. Show me a working class person who's out celebrating on the streets and I'd be baffled too.

What's more, I've heard a number of servicemen call in to radio shows. When asked by the radio host to express how they felt about the fact OBL is done, all of (3) of them (2 active and 1 retired) said because of their experiences that they have a certain respect for life, even for the life of their enemies. AND they did not think that even the Navy Seals who carried out the operation were celebrating either.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The US government needs an enemy that threatens the American way of life....
No wonder they feel the need to wrap themselves in the stars and stripes and dance in the streets.

Absolute rubbish.

 

[Mambo95]

Absolute rubbish.

I would recommend to you a three part documentary series called "The Power of Nightmares", made by Adam Curtis for the BBC. You can find it all on YouTube.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm not throwing a party either. I don't believe this is some sort of fatal blow to Al Queda.

Ultimately the fatal blow will come when the Muslim world advances itself by rejecting theocratic and autocratic rule. But it needs to be a decision that comes from within. It can't be imposed.

You look at the reaction in the Muslim world to OBL's death. Most of the younger people had already rejected Al Queda's ideology. I have no idea what it took to get that to happen but I am glad it did.

Oh, something finally that we can finally agree upon. I have also been saying this before.

Indeed the young Muslim reaction give us room for some optimism.

Yet, to move things in the right direction further, two other things need to occur:
you put them in whichever order you like.

- The West needs to take a step back from its MidEast agenda and reassess some of its disastrous foreign policies in the Arab world, simply because we need their oil. This needs to further be backed by total refrain from further assistance to the non-democratic, regime leaderships in the region we have always relied upon to the great detriment of Arab progress, again because we need their oil, and to allow the Arab nations auto-determination to arrive at their own democratic solutions, despite what Israel may think about it.

- The other thing is that the Palestinian question must be resolved with full international recognition of a new Palestine state.

When these things occur, there may well indeed be an actual chance that the Arabs themselves begin to seriously put up a resistance to and eliminate the extreme elements from within their society, while the West can make a much more solid international case against them in regards to terrorism and international order.

For this to happen, however, the extreme ideological and bigoted positions that the West, and particularly within the US body politic, must also be publicly ostracized and ultimately eliminated from the national psyche.

Its a big task, which perhaps neither party is willing to totally embrace, though it's the only real means that I can see to bring about long term change in an area of the world that has been too vital to planetary interests to have had this crisis develop the way it has for this long.

NO APPROACH that says only one side needs to be reformed and change, with most of the benefits going to the other while it remains the same, is going to work. And in an objective analysis, to say that it is all the fault of just one side, not only negates recent history and reality, but is both logically flawed and unjust.

 

[Anonymous]

or we might give the rest of y'all away. we have guns, remember?

Well, California has already been given away.... they just have not announced it yet.

 

[rhubroma]

Israel's biggest critics lie within Israel. I don't think it's always anti-semetic to attribute terrorism to the Palestinian tragedy. In alot of ways Israel has failed the civilized world because we always expected them to be one of the responsible adults in the region but time and time again they have made matters worse.

But... it's a total fallacy to say that Bin Laden declared a jihad because of Palestine. Bin Laden declared a jihad because the West sent military forces to defend Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden wanted to raise his own Muslim Army to do this but Saudi Arabia really didn't take him seriously. Bin Laden viewed the presence of infidel armies protecting the holy land as blasphemous and he declared war.

Blaming the Bin Laden's jihad on Israel is just opportunistic scapegoating...

All of this is out there for you to see. There are plenty of rational and unbiased journalists that have documented this. You can see Bin Laden say this himself in his messages. It's all pretty clear and unambiguous.

This was the larger cause, but, if you look at another pivotal moment in the man's formation -which was both anti-American/Western and anti-Israel- then it was the massacre of Sabra e Chatile. The young Osama was partying at Beirut at the time, right afterward he was determined to put up a resistance against any infidel who threatened any muslim sovereignty and his dream of a pan-Arab religious empire, went off to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets first and then fought against America and the West later.

To say, therefore, Osama was in no way radicalized by Israeli actions in the region, is to only see that side of the story most convenient to your position, but historically isn't factual.

In any case, if you don't think that the Palestinian question is one of the causes for fomenting jihad and anti-Westernism on the Arab streets, then I would suggest you go to the region and speak to them. They will correct you on this.

 

[patricknd]

Well, California has already been given away.... they just have not announced it yet.

well, there were warning signs..........

 

[rhubroma]

So, at last they've either killed him or the avatar of him they used to roll out whenever anyone challenged the status quo.

Try as I might, I can't feel much good about it. All that I can see for certain in the last ten years of so-called "Western" foreign policy is that you cannot believe anybody anymore. Not governments, not the media, nobody.

Bin Laden is/was a totem for a generation of cretinous elder ideologues. For people who couldn't conceive of any organised "other" without a single figurehead in the vanguard.

The culture of fear and loathing and the ingrained interests are what particularly disgust me. We're still stuck with them now more than ever. And it's nearly Newtonian. For every benighted terrorist, there's a bigoted redneck. For every bloodless coup, there's a minefield of oil bargaining.

I always have "hope", but it's not under a fancy image of Obama.

Compliments on the "a totem" and "cretinous elder ideologues".

In a way this is connected to my post about how the mass media has operated on selling the deeds and evil-doings of the VIP "personalities" of the moment, with the support of those ideologues, to decide how the public is to root for or condemn, this or that cause, this or that national agenda. It doesn't take away from a criminal's crimes, but it's the gaining political and economic purchase from them (and, therefore, from the deaths of his victims too) to create "the culture of fear and loathing and the ingrained interests" to then be able to effect a predetermined plan that would have otherwise been publicly controversial, which has always disgusted me too.

And it doesn't attempt, in the name of special interests, to provide the public with a more profound analysis of the problems and issues, which got us to the point of crisis and disaster in the first place, so as to have a sincere (as opposed to insincere), prudent and, most importantly, effective strategy in regards to how to resolve it.

And this is a failure of present-day democracy, which needs to be addressed.

 

[Astana1]

Oh, something finally that we can finally agree upon. I have also been saying this before.

Indeed the young Muslim reaction give us room for some optimism.

Yet, to move things in the right direct further, two other things need to occur:
you put them in whichever order you like.

- The West needs to take a step back from its MidEast agenda and reassess some of its disastrous foreign policies in the Arab world, simply because we need their oil. This needs to further be backed by total refrain from further assistance to the non-democratic, regime leaderships in the region we have always relied upon to the great detriment of Arab progress, again because we need their oil, and to allow the Arab nations auto-determination to arrive at their own democratic solutions, despite what Israel may think about it.

- The other thing is that the Palestinian question must be resolved with full international recognition of a new Palestine state.

When these things occur, there may well indeed be an actual chance that the Arabs themselves begin to seriously put up a resistance to and eliminate the extreme elements from within their society, while the West can make a much more solid international case against them in regards to terrorism and international order.

For this to happen, however, the extreme ideological and bigoted positions that the West, and particularly within the US body politic, must also be publicly ostracized and ultimately eliminated from the national psyche.

Its a big task, which perhaps neither party is willing to totally embrace, though it's the only real means that I can see to bring about long term change in an area of the world that has been too vital to planetary interests to have had this crisis develop the way it has for this long.

NO APPROACH that says only one side needs to be reformed and change, with most of the benefits going to the other while it remains the same, is going to work. And in an objective analysis, to say that it is all the fault of just one side, not only negates recent history and reality, but is both logically flawed and unjust.

Not a whole lot to disagree with here.

I've spent some time living in middle east in my military service. In Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't call my time in Iraq as living however. I also traveled as a tourist fairly extensively in Egypt and Jordan. I haven't spent any time in Israel largely because I wouldn't have been allowed reentry into Saudi Arabia had I done so. So while I don't consider myself to be some sort of mideast expert, I do think that I have some firsthand experience to draw from.

First off, I really don't believe that Arabs actually care so much about Palestine as much as they hate Israel and what they have done. Palestinians were barely second rate residents in Saudi Arabia. I dealt with the Saudis daily, and some of them I actually maintain contact with. The Palestinians were one level above the Philpinos and ****stani servants and drivers in that country. I really came away with the impression that the Palestinians were useful only as proxy fighters against Israel. And I also believe that this is a big part of the problem.

So it's a two way street. If we can stop the extremists from fueling the fires on the palestinian end that would be a great step.

Otherwise I think we could totally agree on the counterproductivity of the actions of Israeli hard liners. Although I can't blame them for wanting to defend themselves. We would probably disagree on how they go about doing it, but for the record I am not in favor of new settlements.

Secondly, we have to change our approach in the middle east and I think we are seeing that already. For too long we supported autocrats who were "pro-west" and that really produced a ton of blowback. The autocrats made life intolerable and the extremists used the misery to fan the flames.

The only way we are going to get an enduring shift is by supporting popular rule, even if we don't see eye to eye on most issues, I think the production of extremism and human cruise missiles will decrease along with the misery.

Unfortunately our support is going to be selective, because of the oil issue. There's no clear way around that and it's going to be a double standard that undermines the credibility of any effort.

The Saudis are already ****ed at us for not standing by Mubarak and they seem to be looking to the east to China perhaps to forge a strategic partnership with them. The Chinese don't care about the lack of human rights, and that is more convenient.

 

[Astana1]

This was the larger cause, but, if you look at another pivotal moment in the man's formation -which was both anti-American/Western and anti-Israel- then it was the massacre of Sabra e Chatile. The young Osama was partying at Beirut at the time, right afterward he was determined to put up a resistance against any infidel who threatened any muslim sovereignty and his dream of a pan-Arab religious empire, went off to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets first and then fought against America and the West later.

To say, therefore, Osama was in no way radicalized by Israeli actions in the region, is to only see that side of the story most convenient to your position, but historically isn't factual.

In any case, if you don't think that the Palestinian question is one of the causes for fomenting jihad and anti-Westernism on the Arab streets, then I would suggest you go to the region and speak to them. They will correct you on this.

The larger cause as you noted is in fact the establishment of a Islamic Caliphate based on seventh century values that stretches from North Africa to the Hindu Kush. The Israeli piece is just one element. I think saying that the Palestinian cause is the prime motivator for Osama's behavior is a gross overstatement.

One thing I learned from reading "From Beirut to Jerusalem" is that there is a whole lot more going on than just Jew vs. Muslim in that part of the world. Under Osama's vision however there was only room for one religion.