Bomb in Oslo

[Anonymous]

by "mission pushing" are you refering to the crusades? or are you refering to the numerous foreign excursions that countries currently are engaging in, such as norway's involvement in the bombing of libya? or are you talking about something else?

No, I mean US missionaries are doing nothing that hasn't been done in a much more forceful manner innumerable times by non-American missionaries. His point was that somehow, we are seeing something new with US Christian missionaries, and that is absurd.

since most conflicts are local, i suspect you are correct. however, with the rise of relatively fast and easy global transport it is within the realm of possibility that it could have led to an increase in the number of ongoing military conflicts. one other reason for the perception of increased violence is the rise in the number of civilian deaths relative to military deaths. with the advent of drone technology there is virtually no risk to military personnel while the fights are within densely populated areas.

We didn't invent human conflict, and we are not better at killing nor is the amount more significant than at any other time in human history. People kill people. Many times, people kill people in mass because of ___________. Nothing new to see here, nor would things be different if we didn't have ___________. That is my only point.

so far there doesn't appear in anything that i have read that his religion had anything to do with his actions. that said, shouldn't it have prevented him from taking such heinous actions?

Mentally ill people do not base their decisions on rationality, nor any specific philosophy. If they use ___________ reason for their acts, it is just a justification they created with whatever they needed to create it with. A person that insane could read a text of pure peace, and find reason in it to justify their actions. It isn't a logical exercise for them.

My question is: Would atheism have stopped him? Neither religion nor that did, nor would have.

 

[Wallace]

Reading this thread makes one despair about human nature.

It seems to me that whenever someone kills children, it is a monstrous action, regardless of motivation. Most people are just, fittingly, in shock about these events.

To use the slaughter of 80+ children as a means to demonstrate your superior understanding of contemporary politics, or the long term arc of European and Middle-Eastern politics is just crass.

A crazy man with vile ideas about racial and nationalist purity slaughtered children. It has nothing to do with "Islamo-fascism," Holocaust denial, mission-pushing or anything else. This is not the best subject to use to demonstrate your superior forum debate skills.

 

[rhubroma]

You have got to be ****ing kidding me. You live in ****ing Italy. I don't know if you are aware of the centuries of "mission pushing" your adopted country along with France, Germany, Spain, England, etc, etc, etc had prior to this horrific movement you are talking about, but I suggest you get informed (yea, I know you already are, but you didn't let contextual reality get in the way of making a bull**** point, so why should I?).

I realize you are evangelically atheistic, but I haven't seen where men, given any particular motivation, are not willing to slaughter others in the name of ______________. And I know it sucks for your point, but you can put atheism on that line.

Using that incident to proselytize your lack of religious beliefs is ridiculous. Preposterous actually. I suggest stepping back and thinking before toting your cross out for everyone to see when something like this happens. You can play philosophical twister all you want, but that guy was ****ing insane, and I don't know if you know anything about mental illness like that, but it has ****-all to do with any thought process attachment to any philosophy, and has everything to do with a chemical imbalance that allows and many times pushes a human to drop the bounds of morality (regardless of how it is derived) and slaughter other people.

Absurd post of the year.

What has any of the stuff you bring up have to do with anything?

As far as we know, based on the news reports, he is an conservative Christian extremist, with celtic crosses to boot and a fascist ideology that despises the course of history, its multiculturalism, Islam, etc., and the left wing political class whom he holds responsible for the new commuinity

I have to admit, however, that the evangelical variety has nothing to do with it as the previous news reports, however, had suggested. So that was a false conclusion.

In any case it appears he combined in one ferocious cocktail, Christian belief, with Celtic and Pagan lore, with Nazi ideology, with misguided reasoning on some XIX century philosophy, with Holywood machismo al là Gladiator.

 

[rhubroma]

Everyone Islam-fascist was used in IRONY, to bring up a point about perceptions, as against things unperceived, though just as problematical.

People should read the posts before drawing mistaken conclusions.

 

[gregod]

...

Both are great imperialists....

basically i agree with what you are saying, but i do take issue with the above statement. there is no evidence other than the assertions made by western governments that they want to take over the world. the islamists' own statements say only that they wish to rid themselves of western and specifically US imperialism. but even if in their hear of hearts they really do want to take over the world, this does not make them "great imperialists". these islamic terrorist groups control no countries and have very little influence outside of tribal leaders. on the other hand, the US occupies many sovereign countries. some of which acquiesce to US policies and others who oppose certain US policies within their countries have their opposition ignored .

...

We didn't invent human conflict, and we are not better at killing nor is the amount more significant than at any other time in human history. People kill people. Many times, people kill people in mass because of ___________. Nothing new to see here, nor would things be different if we didn't have ___________. That is my only point.

this generation has not invented human conflict, but we do have much larger weaponry that allows one individual to kill many more people from the safety of a nondescript office complex in central florida or rural nevada. in addition, it is indisputable that there is a greater amount of collateral damage produced by such fighting.

My question is: Would atheism have stopped him? Neither religion nor that did, nor would have.

you're right atheism probably would not have stopped him. that said, i have always wondered that if people stopped believing in magical beings it would prevent certain pathologies. religions are so filled with contradictions that one has to really twist oneself into knots to rationalize them all. once on this path, it becomes easy to justify anything. nah, on second thought, people will just subsitute some other kind of magical thinking, such as anti-vax or chrystals or corporations control-the-world or moon-hoaxers or whatever.

 

[flyor64]

Some of the stuff coming to light today is just mind boggling...

Roughly quoted from his lawyer: "I realize what I´ve done is horrible, but it was necessary."

He wrote a 1500 page manifest on potential attacks, plans, etc. Some of the pictures are showing him in complete spec ops type assault gear to chemical handling gear, had been using steroids to become stronger, and he apparently he had cover stories, etc.

What´s the worst for me is hearing/reading the stories of some of the kids that survived...

 

[slim charles]

Some of the stuff coming to light today is just mind boggling...

Roughly quoted from his lawyer: "I realize what I´ve done is horrible, but it was necessary."

He wrote a 1500 page manifest on potential attacks, plans, etc. Some of the pictures are showing him in complete spec ops type assault gear to chemical handling gear, had been using steroids to become stronger, and he apparently he had cover stories, etc.

What´s the worst for me is hearing/reading the stories of some of the kids that survived...

first of all, i am still in shock after what happened in norway. my heart goes to all the families of the kids that were killed by the maniac.
i've read his 'manifest' [parts of it, of course] and seen some youtube video he made... he is obviously very sick person, but he obviously had a political agenda. and, having read some messages and comments on various sites - i get the feeling that his action is considered as heroic by some [minority, of course, but still...].
i get the feeling that he had ambition to create the new 'mein kampf'. and i'm afraid that there will be more and more of those who will consider him a hero.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

We have no evidence as of yet that religion was in any way a motivating factor. He was a religious person, but until further information becomes public I will hold my fire on talking of religion's role in the tragedy.

Yes, thank you. That is what I am hoping from people posting here.

Some of the stuff coming to light today is just mind boggling...

Flyor64, I know you don't know the answer to this, but perhaps you can give a perspective being from Norway. It would seem to be that it would be quite difficult in your country for this person to gain this much firepower. Is there any idea how he managed to do so?

 

[flyor64]

Flyor64, I know you don't know the answer to this, but perhaps you can give a perspective being from Norway. It would seem to be that it would be quite difficult in your country for this person to gain this much firepower. Is there any idea how he managed to do so?

In full disclosure, I´m an expat living here for 4 years now. My family´s perspective is one of shock and disbelief. I´ve heard more than once, "How can this happen here?" I will respectfully allow the Norwegians to post their thoughts/perspectives when and if they feel so inclined. It may be a while before we hear from them; the country is very much in mourning today.

As to the weapons, I´ve been wondering the same thing. It is very difficult to get these types of weapons legally in Norway, which surprisingly is what the news is reporting: that he obtained the Glock 17 and rifle legally, and that he had them buried in a case on the farm he rented. Not much else said about them yet but I can imagine there is more to come.

 

[Anonymous]

basically i agree with what you are saying, but i do take issue with the above statement. there is no evidence other than the assertions made by western governments that they want to take over the world. the islamists' own statements say only that they wish to rid themselves of western and specifically US imperialism. but even if in their hear of hearts they really do want to take over the world, this does not make them "great imperialists". these islamic terrorist groups control no countries and have very little influence outside of tribal leaders. on the other hand, the US occupies many sovereign countries. some of which acquiesce to US policies and others who oppose certain US policies within their countries have their opposition ignored .


this generation has not invented human conflict, but we do have much larger weaponry that allows one individual to kill many more people from the safety of a nondescript office complex in central florida or rural nevada. in addition, it is indisputable that there is a greater amount of collateral damage produced by such fighting.



you're right atheism probably would not have stopped him. that said, i have always wondered that if people stopped believing in magical beings it would prevent certain pathologies. religions are so filled with contradictions that one has to really twist oneself into knots to rationalize them all. once on this path, it becomes easy to justify anything. nah, on second thought, people will just subsitute some other kind of magical thinking, such as anti-vax or chrystals or corporations control-the-world or moon-hoaxers or whatever.

I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion as this is a thread about the killings in Oslo. I will simply say that one does not have to twist oneself into anything to rationalize the contradictions. Human beings are walking contradictions, so it shouldn't be a surprise that any thing undertaken by them would be fraught with them.

 

[patrick767]

Is this article correct?

It says that if this mass murderer is convicted, he faces 21 years in prison, "Norway's maximum penalty". Are you freaking kidding me? He kills 93 people and the max penalty is 21 years in jail? I hope this information is wrong.

 

[Cobblestones]

I dont know how this discussion reached this as i havent read most of the thread, but since it has, ill take a few minutes of my time on this point.

What is wrong with the term "islamo-facism". It reffers to the fact that there are similarities between islamic fanatics and Fascists. As far as im concerned if one examines the ideologies of both one is hard pressed to find 2 belief systems that are more similar.

First of all they dont even avoid the comparison. Many extremists in the middle east treat Hitler with reverence.

Only 2 types of people deny the holocaust. European fascists and Islamic extremists.

Like fascists, islamic extremists are very racist and engage in genocide against other ethnic groups.

They also worship the warrior class, preaching that soldiers recieve a higher status in society and in heaven, which is the main point of fascism. The word comes from Fasci italiani di combattimento which was a group at whose meetings abu hamza would not seem out of place.

Mussolini wrote a very long, and even slightly impressive essay saying that without war life would be unbearable and wouldnt work, a love of war only since matched by Bin Laden and Zarqawi.

Both are great imperialists. In modern history the only 2 groups to seek actively to take over the world have been the Nazis and the islamic extremists.

Perhaps most importantly, they both share a loathing of modernisation and look to the past for all answers. Old law, old views on homosexuality, old views of the role of women, old class systems. Believe life was simpler worked better in the past. Mussolini looks to the Roman Empire. Bin Laden looks to the Ottoman one.

In fact i see a lot of similarities with Euro facists, and Islamic extremists. Their ideologies are almost identical.

Am i trying to scare white Americans into fighting when i make these comparisons?

Why cant i use this term Islamo Facism, which seems to me to be a pretty good description of what groups such as Jamal al Islamia or Alquaeda are?

There's two things you leave out. First, fascism is decidedly anti-religious, and secondly, it usually becomes very cultish, centered around a leader figure. Neither is compatible with Islam. So, while there's certainly parallels as you point out, I think a lot of them are secondary.

/off topic


As for the Norwegian terrorist, I think it would be wrong to simply call him insane. You don't have to go that far back in history to find simple man massacring civilians, and even children by the hundreds in cold blood. If you can manage to see other people not as people but sufficiently different to consider them 'sub-human' or similar, it is in fact possible to shut off any kind of empathic reaction. You can for instance read testimony of soldiers rationalizing about war crimes and genocide they have committed. These soldiers are usually perfectly functioning beings in peace times.

The question becomes how can someone, who is living a highly privileged live (globally seen) in what can be argued as the country with the highest standard of living, how can this person be turned into such a monster? Apparently, (without looking into too much detail) it was a mix of fascistoid, pan-European white supremacist ideology, mixed with Christian mysticism concerning the crusades, Knight Templars, freemasons with borrowed parts from the Una Bomber of all people. I have no desire to read any of that ghastly drivel. A lot of that seems somewhat standard in those circles (most of what he 'wrote' seems to have been a copy-paste job). What is unusual I think is that he targeted the labor party and what he called 'cultural Marxists' instead of muslims or non-European immigrants themselves.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Is this article correct?

It says that if this mass murderer is convicted, he faces 21 years in prison, "Norway's maximum penalty". Are you freaking kidding me? He kills 93 people and the max penalty is 21 years in jail? I hope this information is wrong.

Norway's maximum penalty is 21 years. They can keep you for longer (on a rolling basis iirc) if they believe you pose a threat to society if released, which means it is more than likely Anders Breivik will live out his time behind bars.

 

[thegrimpeur]

Is this article correct?

It says that if this mass murderer is convicted, he faces 21 years in prison, "Norway's maximum penalty". Are you freaking kidding me? He kills 93 people and the max penalty is 21 years in jail? I hope this information is wrong.

That is correct, and will certainly be up for debate. He can, however, be kept on a rolling basis after this penalty, like the dude above me explained.

An interesting point is that there as arguably never been anyone deserving a greater punishment than 21 years here in Norway (since WW2) , which is why we still have such a low maximum penalty. This really goes some ways to describing how peaceful this land really is, and how surreal this tragedy has been to us. Tonight, we had a beautiful rally against terror in our biggest cities, and to support those affected by the massacre and bomb. In Oslo alone over 150.000 turned up (in a city with a population of 600.000 and in the middle of the summer vacation).
http://www.vg.no/bildespesial/spesial.php?id=8410

 

[gregod]

interesting post, cobblestones. some comments below.

There's two things you leave out. First, fascism is decidedly anti-religious, and secondly, it usually becomes very cultish, centered around a leader figure. ...

in a way this is the same as religion in that it substitutes a mythical creature in the sky for a living mythical creature, viz. north korea.

As for the Norwegian terrorist, I think it would be wrong to simply call him insane. ...

you make very good points, at least he is very deluded, which can rise to the level of pathology and therefore be considered legally diminished capacity.

 

[gregod]

Norway's maximum penalty is 21 years. They can keep you for longer (on a rolling basis iirc) ....

21 years? i don't know what to make of this. what are prison conditions like? in other (non western) countries, penalties are typical shorter, but prison conditions are very harsh and recidivism is pretty low. in japan, for example, everything is exactly regulated and the slightest deviation is punished. prisoners wake up and go to sleep at exactly the appointed time, eat according to regulations, work an eight hour day five days a week, only speak with approved words, intonation and when spoken to, cleanliness is stricty enforced, and so on.

what is the legal basis for continued encarceration after 21 years?

That is correct, and will certainly be up for debate. He can, however, be kept on a rolling basis after this penalty, like the dude above me explained.

An interesting point is that there as arguably never been anyone deserving a greater punishment than 21 years here in Norway (since WW2) , which is why we still have such a low maximum penalty. This really goes some ways to describing how peaceful this land really is, and how surreal this tragedy has been to us. Tonight, we had a beautiful rally against terror in our biggest cities, and to support those affected by the massacre and bomb. In Oslo alone over 150.000 turned up (in a city with a population of 600.000 and in the middle of the summer vacation).
http://www.vg.no/bildespesial/spesial.php?id=8410

while 21 years seems unreasonably short, i hope the deliberations on the maximum punishment are done well after the pain of this case subsides. changing it now will do nothing to the perpetrator. in addition, even if norway had a much more severe penalty it is extremely unlikely that it would have prevented this tragedy.

in my experience, the most peaceful societies are often the most lenient.

thanks for the link. it reminds me of this.

 

[Balleballe]

I can see that a lot of people are jumping in their chairs when they see that our maximum penalty is 21 years. This is one of the things that make Norway Norway. We don't necessarily see it as a punishment, but as a rehabilitation. The prison conditions are the best in the world, and the prisoners have a lot of freedom. For dangerous prisoners that haven't been rehabilitated we can keep them longer until we no longer see tham as a danger for our society.

Human rights, democracy and equal rights for all is a strong building block in the Norwegian society, and we have the lowest crimerate in the world. Anders Behring Breivik did his terror attaccks to break down just this culture (he was a christian conservatist, with sympaties with the Tea Party movement in the US). If we react with hate rather than with giving him the same rights as othhers, he is the winner in the end.

And as an answer to this the norwegian people have reacted with prays for more democracy, more openess; make the norwegian society even more "naive" (as I've shockingly heard US and UK news braodcaster say). Our way of life works, Anders Behring Breivik's, and the right wing conservatist's doesn't.

Last I wil just say to everyone that you should not take anything FOX-news says seriously. I've never in my life heard such twisted news coverage as their news coverage over this terror attacks. FOX-news is a fraud, and lot of their "news" is just lies..

Sorry for my bad english.

 

[gregod]

I can see that a lot of people are jumping in their chairs when they see that our maximum penalty is 21 years. This is one of the things that make Norway Norway. We don't necessarily see it as a punishment, but as a rehabilitation. The prison conditions are the best in the world, and the prisoners have a lot of freedom. For dangerous prisoners that haven't been rehabilitated we can keep them longer until we no longer see tham as a danger for our society.

Human rights, democracy and equal rights for all is a strong building block in the Norwegian society, and we have the lowest crimerate in the world. Anders Behring Breivik did his terror attaccks to break down just this culture (he was a christian conservatist, with sympaties with the Tea Party movement in the US). If we react with hate rather than with giving him the same rights as othhers, he is the winner in the end.

And as an answer to this the norwegian people have reacted with prays for more democracy, more openess; make the norwegian society even more "naive" (as I've shockingly heard US and UK news braodcaster say). Our way of life works, Anders Behring Breivik's, and the right wing conservatist's doesn't.

Last I wil just say to everyone that you should not take anything FOX-news says seriously. I've never in my life heard such twisted news coverage as their news coverage over this terror attacks. FOX-news is a fraud, and lot of their "news" is just lies..

Sorry for my bad english.

+1

Great post! it should be required reading for everyone.

 

[L'arriviste]

I can see that a lot of people are jumping in their chairs when they see that our maximum penalty is 21 years. This is one of the things that make Norway Norway. We don't necessarily see it as a punishment, but as a rehabilitation. The prison conditions are the best in the world, and the prisoners have a lot of freedom. For dangerous prisoners that haven't been rehabilitated we can keep them longer until we no longer see tham as a danger for our society.

+1. Good on Norway!

I think it was posted on here before but the Bastøy Island prison is a perfect example.

The systems reflect the society, which is why 21 years is the maximum sentence in Norway and why a humane, non-reptilian response to societal problems like Bastøy would probably never work outside Norway.

 

[craig1985]

TBF you would have a heck of a swim even if you did decide to escape. Would put Michael Phelps to shame.

 

[TRDean]

Just a totally sad and devastating event. My words can do it no justice. My thoughts are with every family and person who was impacted...the whole country of Norway!

 

[Balleballe]

Just a totally sad and devastating event. My words can do it no justice. My thoughts are with every family and person who was impacted...the whole country of Norway!

Thank you all for your support. It is a horrible situation. Norway is a small country. A lot of people had friends or family that were on Utøya, or in the government building during the attacks. And I think almost everyone know someone who have familiy and friends amongst the victims and/or the survivors.

The peace demonstration/memorial march all over Norway last night were amazing. The biggest crowds in the streets since WW2.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Thank you for being willing to talk about it. It's very interesting to hear the perspectives of those within, rather than judging those choices from elsewhere. It is clear that to many not weaned on such a system, the open nature of society in Norway seems strange, and many call for dealing with such an act in a similar way to how they would expect it elsewhere; I think it's nice to see you pointing out how and why this could (or should) not work to those raised on the Norwegian system - after all, we learn more by listening than by telling.

Være sterk, Norge, og lykke til.

I apologise if this is wrong. My Norwegian is very basic.

 

[craig1985]

I have a gut feeling that the maximum sentence will not be 21 years after all of this is over.

 

[Balleballe]

I think the maximum sentence will be the same in the future. But we actually have a special sentence for "crimes against humanity", which is 30 years.

But that is intended for war crimes and such. Breivik will probably be sentenced for terrorism, which is 21 years + possibly extended custody (Which can be used if it's likely that he will be a repeat offender of serious crimes, in other words not rehabilitated) . Breivk is probably going to stay in prison till he's an old man.