Brabantse Pijl - April 13, 2016, 203k

[DFA123]

Re:

Matthews = Gerrans v2

Matthews is really wasting his talent, being at a team which often races so negatively. I think he's not far from the level of Sagan in terms of potential and what he could achieve in the sport - but he is always so passive and waits for things to happen. At his age he should just go for it more - test the boundaries to see what he is capable of - not just sit there hoping for a sprint.

 

[Carstenbf]

Well, he did actually attack.

Just didn't have the legs to get away.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Matthews = Gerrans v2

Matthews is really wasting his talent, being at a team which often races so negatively. I think he's not far from the level of Sagan in terms of potential and what he could achieve in the sport - but he is always so passive and waits for things to happen. At his age he should just go for it more - test the boundaries to see what he is capable of - not just sit there hoping for a sprint.

Did someone forces him to race that way?! He can attack if he wants! It's not his team fault! Not far from Sagan?!!! When did he produced some memorable ride like Sagan did?! Similarities are that they're both good sprinters, excellent uphill sprinters, and both can hang on at the climbs for much longer than other fast men. And that's it! He lacks the strength of Sagan, endurance, guts, etc. Don't get me wrong, Matthews is a very good rider, but not among the very best. And Sagan is.

 

[BigMac]

Re:

It's good to see that Alaphilippe is finally showing signs of life.

...and just ahead of the Ardennes. Ready to spoil some parties.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Matthews = Gerrans v2

Matthews is really wasting his talent, being at a team which often races so negatively. I think he's not far from the level of Sagan in terms of potential and what he could achieve in the sport - but he is always so passive and waits for things to happen. At his age he should just go for it more - test the boundaries to see what he is capable of - not just sit there hoping for a sprint.

Did someone forces him to race that way?! He can attack if he wants! It's not his team fault! Not far from Sagan?!!! When did he produced some memorable ride like Sagan did?! Similarities are that they're both good sprinters, excellent uphill sprinters, and both can hang on at the climbs for much longer than other fast men. And that's it! He lacks the strength of Sagan, endurance, guts, etc. Don't get me wrong, Matthews is a very good rider, but not among the very best. And Sagan is.

A lot of words to basically say that you agree, he is wasting his talent.

 

[Breh]

Glad to see Alaphilippe seems to have recovered just in time from his mono.

 

[SafeBet]

Nice race once again. Both Etixx and Lotto very aggressive throughout the last 50-60. Both have the weapons to make the Ardennes week very interesting. A good result from Colbrelli too, and outsider for AGR.

I heard the interview of Gasparotto after the race. He was quite emotional and wanted to win this for Demoitie.

 

[Jancouver]

Re:

Nice race once again. Both Etixx and Lotto very aggressive throughout the last 50-60. Both have the weapons to make the Ardennes week very interesting. A good result from Colbrelli too, and outsider for AGR.

I heard the interview of Gasparotto after the race. He was quite emotional and wanted to win this for Demoitie.

Thats what happen when you dont want to do the work. As he said, he thought Gallo-Pain was the strongest one there and was waiting for him to close the gap. Then it was too late

Quite honestly I think he had no idea who Vakoc is ...

 

[jens_attacks]

It was obvious that gaspa could not follow vakoc anyway
He's a watts monstee

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

Matthews = Gerrans v2

Matthews is really wasting his talent, being at a team which often races so negatively. I think he's not far from the level of Sagan in terms of potential and what he could achieve in the sport - but he is always so passive and waits for things to happen. At his age he should just go for it more - test the boundaries to see what he is capable of - not just sit there hoping for a sprint.

Did someone forces him to race that way?! He can attack if he wants! It's not his team fault! Not far from Sagan?!!! When did he produced some memorable ride like Sagan did?! Similarities are that they're both good sprinters, excellent uphill sprinters, and both can hang on at the climbs for much longer than other fast men. And that's it! He lacks the strength of Sagan, endurance, guts, etc. Don't get me wrong, Matthews is a very good rider, but not among the very best. And Sagan is.

A lot of words to basically say that you agree, he is wasting his talent.

Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.

 

[del1962]

Isn't it time Vacoc had his own thread?

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Isn't it time Vacoc had his own thread?

Feel free to start one if you want

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

Thats what happen when you dont want to do the work. As he said, he thought Gallo-Pain was the strongest one there and was waiting for him to close the gap. Then it was too late

Quite honestly I think he had no idea who Vakoc is ...

He also said he didn't have the legs to follow and Vakoc was clearly the strongest.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.

Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

 

[barmaher]

That is unfair on Orica Greenedge, I think.

They seem to give ample opportunities and growing space to riders like Ewan, Chaves and Yates x 2.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Isn't it time Vacoc had his own thread?

Feel free to start one if you want

I could do, but it would be better if it was someone more eloquent than me

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.

Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

Wow...where have you been. Sometimes they're so patient with their development of a certain rider, I've wondered if they even want to win. Instead of having one big guy in the team guaranteed to win a lot, they've developed some very nice talent in recent years; and they don't over ride them, put to much pressure on them, they support them, give them chances to lead, ect.

 

[Jancouver]

Re:

Isn't it time Vacoc had his own thread?

Nah, he won just 3 races this year ...

... let's not waste our time on some hard working youngster when we can discuss how talented (and fat) Betancur is.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

That is unfair on Orica Greenedge, I think.

They seem to give ample opportunities and growing space to riders like Ewan, Chaves and Yates x 2.

They've done better with those riders (although I do think Chaves is slightly under-acheiving there - possibly Simon Yates as well given his talent). They did the same with Matthews and managed him fairly well between 22 and 24. But he's not kicking on - and I think it's partly because he's being pushed in the wrong direction. There was talk before Paris-Nice that they wanted him to challenge for the GC there; when I think he would have been better going to Flanders and trying to contest some of the cobbled classics.

They want him to be a Gerrans - following wheels on the climbs and then winning sprints from a reduced bunch, and challenging for the odd week long stage race. But he's a much better sprinter than Gerrans, can do an awesome prologue, and has good endurance. He should be contending for RVV and PR, imo, as well as the likes of Amstel Gold.

 

[Miburo]

Not hard to make a thread

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.

Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

Wow...where have you been. Sometimes they're so patient with their development of a certain rider, I've wondered if they even want to win. Instead of having one big guy in the team guaranteed to win a lot, they've developed some very nice talent in recent years; and they don't over ride them, put to much pressure on them, they support them, give them chances to lead, ect.

That's kind of my point; they don't develop superstars, they develop riders that finish in the top 10 in stage races, or occasionally win the odd one day race. I think Matthews has the potential to be a superstar in the same league as Sagan and Kwiatkowski.

 

[trucido]

Re: Re:

Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.

Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

Wow...where have you been. Sometimes they're so patient with their development of a certain rider, I've wondered if they even want to win. Instead of having one big guy in the team guaranteed to win a lot, they've developed some very nice talent in recent years; and they don't over ride them, put to much pressure on them, they support them, give them chances to lead, ect.

That's kind of my point; they don't develop superstars, they develop riders that finish in the top 10 in stage races, or occasionally win the odd one day race. I think Matthews has the potential to be a superstar in the same league as Sagan and Kwiatkowski.

It's easy look like a direct competitor to Sagan when all you do is suck wheels until the final dash, but another to do the same when you take the race into your own hands.

Racecraft aside, Sagan is also a far better rouleur, descender/bike handler. The bike handling point in particular as avoiding crashes (Matthews in TdF'15, MSR'16) means you are more likely to be there at the pointy end of a race, and have better recovery periods on descents while still maintaining good speed.

Let's see what Matthews can do in Sagan's situation (in big races) where everyone is riding against him before we tout 'superstar' status.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Yeah, but you're blaming his team, and I don't.

Fair enough. I don't completely blame his team, but I think Orica are very results focused, which may not be the best environment for a super talent like Matthews. They aren't really bothered about style, or developing a rider, more about winning in whichever way possible.

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

Wow...where have you been. Sometimes they're so patient with their development of a certain rider, I've wondered if they even want to win. Instead of having one big guy in the team guaranteed to win a lot, they've developed some very nice talent in recent years; and they don't over ride them, put to much pressure on them, they support them, give them chances to lead, ect.

That's kind of my point; they don't develop superstars, they develop riders that finish in the top 10 in stage races, or occasionally win the odd one day race. I think Matthews has the potential to be a superstar in the same league as Sagan and Kwiatkowski.

It's easy look like a direct competitor to Sagan when all you do is suck wheels until the final dash, but another to do the same when you take the race into your own hands.

Racecraft aside, Sagan is also a far better rouleur, descender/bike handler. The bike handling point in particular as avoiding crashes (Matthews in TdF'15, MSR'16) means you are more likely to be there at the pointy end of a race, and have better recovery periods on descents while still maintaining good speed.

Let's see what Matthews can do in Sagan's situation (in big races) where everyone is riding against him before we tout 'superstar' status.

You've kind of missed the point. I'm not claiming Matthews is as good as Sagan, but that he has the potential to be a similar kind of rider, rather than the fairly negative and conservative rider we see at the moment. I'm lamenting the fact that all he generally does is suck wheels until the finish, when we've seen from his anaerobic power and short TT ability that he has the potential to do so much more.

 

[shalgo]

Re: Re:

Quite honestly I think he had no idea who Vakoc is ...

Seems unlikely, when Gasparotto was 12th in the Drôme Classic, which Vakoc won, and 29th in the Classic Sud Ardèche, which Vakoc also won.

 

[trucido]

Re: Re:

[quote="

I just hope they aren't trying to turn him into Gerrans v2. When really, with his talent, he should be looking to emulate riders like Sagan, Kwiatkowski etc.. He's capable of winning races in different ways, but seems to be very conservative in the way he rides. Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose the race in order to win it.

Wow...where have you been. Sometimes they're so patient with their development of a certain rider, I've wondered if they even want to win. Instead of having one big guy in the team guaranteed to win a lot, they've developed some very nice talent in recent years; and they don't over ride them, put to much pressure on them, they support them, give them chances to lead, ect.

That's kind of my point; they don't develop superstars, they develop riders that finish in the top 10 in stage races, or occasionally win the odd one day race. I think Matthews has the potential to be a superstar in the same league as Sagan and Kwiatkowski.

It's easy look like a direct competitor to Sagan when all you do is suck wheels until the final dash, but another to do the same when you take the race into your own hands.

Racecraft aside, Sagan is also a far better rouleur, descender/bike handler. The bike handling point in particular as avoiding crashes (Matthews in TdF'15, MSR'16) means you are more likely to be there at the pointy end of a race, and have better recovery periods on descents while still maintaining good speed.

Let's see what Matthews can do in Sagan's situation (in big races) where everyone is riding against him before we tout 'superstar' status.

You've kind of missed the point. I'm not claiming Matthews is as good as Sagan, but that he has the potential to be a similar kind of rider, rather than the fairly negative and conservative rider we see at the moment. I'm lamenting the fact that all he generally does is suck wheels until the finish, when we've seen from his anaerobic power and short TT ability that he has the potential to do so much more.

Actually I didn't miss the point at all, considering you mentioned Matthew's potential for superstar status.