Brailsford Should Stand Down

[Dear Wiggo]

You only named Porte because Hog mentions him and Rogers is too obvious. We need more.

Incorrect. Check the Tenerife thread. They were the three training in Tenerife allegedly with Kerrison when Froome was sick, they are the two singled out by Wiggins wife as being "loyal", and they were the obvious leiutenants at the Tour this year, as well as the slightly rewarded ones earlier in the season.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's a shame the Sky experiment for him failed. He was Brailsford's original vision as lone leader whilst waiting for a potential Tour winner. Wiggins in 2009 changed all that - as did Mark doing another year at HTC.

Do you have a link where Brailsford says or implies this, or keywords to use for a search? I'd be very interested in reading the interview if you do.

Searching anything with Brailsford in it turns up a lot of unwanted dross currently.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Except I have seen Dear Wiggo refer to Sky as UK Postal on several occasions. So I take it Dear Wiggo is only accusing three Sky riders of doping, and the rest he considers clean? That doesn't sound to me like US Postal at all.

If I have the time or inclination I may go back through DW/The Big Ring's posts and see if his accusations have been limited to the three he claims. If that is the case then he should not infer team-wide doping by referring to Sky as UK Postal. The accusations must become rider-specific, rather than the team as a whole.

Instead of getting your knickers in a twist, take a seat, have a chill, and read Tyler's book, where he explains exactly what is going on at US Postal.

And to save you the time, I will share with you the salient point:

Lance had specific climbing leiutenants that he trained and doped with - Tyler was one of them for a period of time - and not all the riders were on the same "program".

As is exactly the case with UK Postal.

I do not necessarily consider the rest of the team "clean" per se, but it's clear who is on the full program.

There are far more similarities between the 2 teams than their doping program and Brad himself described the team as US Postal like, so really, your irrational demands that I or anyone else stop comparing them are moot.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Posted by Dear Wiggo:

Doesn't look like his accusations are limited to the 'Tenerife 3', does it Maserati?

This post and every one after it are a specific response to the accusaion made by Ryo that, unlike USPS,

Sky are falling apart at the end of the season.

You can pull as many of my posts out of context to prove your point, but if I come back and swat your silliness aside, you are just going to have to take it.

 

[Ferminal]

There is the 'Sky' thread and a million others to discuss Sky being clean or otherwise.

Can we please keep this remotely related to Brailsford and his handling of the situation.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If Brailsford can't embrace pro cycling warts and all, he should stand down before he does any more damage.

Disagree. I like the experimental aspect of this current episode, and want to see how it plays out. He's damaging Sky, perhaps, but not cycling per se. Unless your definition of cycling starts and ends with Sky.

Guys like Jonathan Vaughters are the future.

God I hope not.

 

[Franklin]

I just think there needs to be specific accusations levelled, rather than this UK Postal drivel, and accusations of team-wide doping, which Dear Wiggo has referred to.

Oh I certainly agree!

Accusations like:

1. A structure of doping DS'es. Pointed out long before the purge
2. Hiring a dirty doctor (and one also smeared in association of a highprofile case).
3. Having Rogers, Ferrari and Freiburg client, exitedly exclaim that his power numbers are the best ever.
4. A liar as a general manager who in a PR move puts the sword to the management, but forgets his own culpability in hiring said known dodgy characters.

As these are solid irrefutable facts I would expect a sane and even person like you do the right thing and start questioning if DB is the doping fighter you make him out to be.

 

[Avoriaz]

Do you have a link where Brailsford says or implies this, or keywords to use for a search? I'd be very interested in reading the interview if you do.

Searching anything with Brailsford in it turns up a lot of unwanted dross currently.

Sorry no weblinks - oft referred to by Richard Moore in the first half of "The Skys The Limit", which I just read on the Eurostar

 

[JimmyFingers]

Hi Jimmy,
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but High Road disbanded some time ago - they were a great team. I can certainly see why you might have had enough with the lies at Sky.
Toodles.

Good team, sadly missed. They live on through my armwarmers though

 

[RownhamHill]

Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo
Do you have a link where Brailsford says or implies this, or keywords to use for a search? I'd be very interested in reading the interview if you do.

Searching anything with Brailsford in it turns up a lot of unwanted dross currently.

Sorry no weblinks - oft referred to by Richard Moore in the first half of "The Skys The Limit", which I just read on the Eurostar

Just to add to that, if you can't find/don't want to read the book (which it surprises me you haven't read already. . .) I'm pretty sure when the book was released first time around Richard Moore did quite a bit of publicity on it, including stuff in the Guardian and Telegraph I think. I certainly read about Cav being the intended leader in the Guardian a year or so ago - probably early 2011 as the book originally covered the first year of Sky. I won't do your googling for you, but there's definitely stuff around the interwebs if you use Richard Moore and Skys the limit in your search terms.

 

[IainMc]

Disagree. I like the experimental aspect of this current episode, and want to see how it plays out. He's damaging Sky, perhaps, but not cycling per se. Unless your definition of cycling starts and ends with Sky.



God I hope not.

Of course Brailsford is damaging cycling as a whole. Maybe I'm being naive, but I strongly believe that reformed dopers like Vaughters, Millar, Julich, etc, can do lots of good. Some of these ex-dopers are utterly committed to a clean sport. If leading team managers like Brailsford exclude them, that sets a very bad example to the sport as a whole, and it makes it easier for other managers to follow suit. If guys like Brailsford stood up and said, "I am appalled at what Bobby Julich did in the past, but he has convinced me he has reformed and I will value his contribution in future," that would send out a powerful message. The teams need to agree an agenda for the future and move forwards together. For heaven's sake we have several ex dopers including Vaughters leading teams - it's a bit cynical to exclude reformed dopers from other useful roles in the sport. Or do we reserve only the role of team manager or team doctor for ex dopers? If all ex-dopers are excluded from all roles in cycling their experience will be lost, and there won't be many people left to run things.

We also need to see an environment where other dopers do not fear "coming out" and helping to expose the full depth of the problem. This will not happen if everyone who confesses just gets totally screwed - hand out appropriate punishment of course, but don't create a situation where they continue to hide.

I'm surprised at your take on Vaughters. What reasons?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Instead of getting your knickers in a twist, take a seat, have a chill, and read Tyler's book, where he explains exactly what is going on at US Postal.

And to save you the time, I will share with you the salient point:

Lance had specific climbing leiutenants that he trained and doped with - Tyler was one of them for a period of time - and not all the riders were on the same "program".

As is exactly the case with UK Postal.

I do not necessarily consider the rest of the team "clean" per se, but it's clear who is on the full program.

There are far more similarities between the 2 teams than their doping program and Brad himself described the team as US Postal like, so really, your irrational demands that I or anyone else stop comparing them are moot.

For all the bluster, it's still a back-track, but then I wouldn't expect you to admit it

 

[Dear Wiggo]

For all the bluster, it's still a back-track, but then I wouldn't expect you to admit it

Jimmy I have no issue admitting when I am wrong, none whatsoever. I can't be bothered finding examples of this, but trust me, they are there.

There is no bluster. My narrative all along is the Tenerife Trio, and the Ashenden article that backed up the belief that Wiggins had worked out the protocol and let his climbing buddies in on it.

The narrative is not affected at all by calling them UK Postal. It fits like a glove.

If I thought it was team-wide, my new name would be "Team Cheatsky" or something. The focus is all on the ringleader, Wiggins, who is doing it without Brailsford or anyone else's knowledge, except for possibly Mr Dodgy, Kerrison.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm surprised at your take on Vaughters. What reasons?

In a nutshell:

* a skinsuit provides the same advantage as EPO
* there is significant anaerobic contribution in a 20 minute climb
* hypoxia induced during a 34 minute TT may lead to a 27% spike in reticulocytes 2 hours later
* left over EPO can be used for up to 3 years for doping
* everyone tested high for Hgb/Hct at the start of the 2012 Giro but none of the team managers know, and none of the team managers have a problem with a rival team manager talking to their doctors about their riders' test values
* David Millar is not a GT GC rider because he does not recover and therefore does not experience plasma expansion during a GT
* Trent Lowe was blackmailing JV for $500k
* Bradley Wiggins has a superior (ie low) MAOD for a pursuiter
* Teams should be forced to pay 5x the amount they are paying for testing, despite the fact Team sparkly pristine snow white clean Garmin won the Giro and Team sparkly pristine snow white clean Sky won the Tour .

 

[sniper]

In a nutshell:

* a skinsuit provides the same advantage as EPO
* there is significant anaerobic contribution in a 20 minute climb
* hypoxia induced during a 34 minute TT may lead to a 27% spike in reticulocytes 2 hours later
* left over EPO can be used for up to 3 years for doping
* everyone tested high for Hgb/Hct at the start of the 2012 Giro but none of the team managers know, and none of the team managers have a problem with a rival team manager talking to their doctors about their riders' test values
* David Millar is not a GT GC rider because he does not recover and therefore does not experience plasma expansion during a GT
* Trent Lowe was blackmailing JV for $500k
* Bradley Wiggins has a superior (ie low) MAOD for a pursuiter
* Teams should be forced to pay 5x the amount they are paying for testing, despite the fact Team sparkly pristine snow white clean Garmin won the Giro and Team sparkly pristine snow white clean Sky won the Tour .

man, you're forgetting that it is so much cleaner now, as has been abundantly corroborated by the recent positives of e.g. Barredo, Schleck, Lance's positives for 2009/10, AC's positive in 2010, the Spanish Armada in 2012 Vuelta, not to mention the Spanish support for Lance, and other circumstantial evidence

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy I have no issue admitting when I am wrong, none whatsoever. I can't be bothered finding examples of this, but trust me, they are there.

There is no bluster. My narrative all along is the Tenerife Trio, and the Ashenden article that backed up the belief that Wiggins had worked out the protocol and let his climbing buddies in on it.

The narrative is not affected at all by calling them UK Postal. It fits like a glove.

If I thought it was team-wide, my new name would be "Team Cheatsky" or something. The focus is all on the ringleader, Wiggins, who is doing it without Brailsford or anyone else's knowledge, except for possibly Mr Dodgy, Kerrison.

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. That was mainly for Maserati's benefit since he decided to try to play games with me. I am surprised you do not include Froome in your theory though.

 

[Tinman]

Searching anything with Brailsford in it turns up a lot of unwanted dross currently.

I admit I haven't looked much at Brailsford & don't know anything much about him. So apologies if covered before in The Clinic. And apologies to question on someone so central and decorated to British cycling success (ahem). However.

Has it ever struck you how little info there is on Brailsford's early cycling & coaching career on the web? He is an ex marketing guy of late right? Has raced for 4 years as a pro (?) in France. Has an OBE for services to cycling. "Picked up" by Brian Cookson. Dropped out of school (?), completed an MBA. Maybe some older British pro cyclists can tell us more. Breaking Omerta anyone?

More than fishy to me. Ie. the lack of info on a guy so central to the British cycling success over the past decade. And the close connection to Shane Sutton & Sean Yates. Sutton still at Sky despite vicious early drug rumors; Yates gone "of his own accord, unrelated". Hmm...

Re info on the web - Reputation.com ring a bell? The company that was touting their services recently in a CNN article on LA.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I admit I haven't looked much at Brailsford & don't know anything much about him. So apologies if covered before in The Clinic. And apologies to question on someone so central and decorated to British cycling success (ahem). However.

Has it ever struck you how little info there is on Brailsford's early cycling & coaching career on the web? He is an ex marketing guy of late right? Has raced for 4 years as a pro (?) in France. Has an OBE for services to cycling. "Picked up" by Brian Cookson. Dropped out of school (?), completed an MBA. Maybe some older British pro cyclists can tell us more. Breaking Omerta anyone?

More than fishy to me. Ie. the lack of info on a guy so central to the British cycling success over the past decade. And the close connection to Shane Sutton & Sean Yates. Sutton still at Sky despite vicious early drug rumors; Yates gone "of his own accord, unrelated". Hmm...

Re info on the web - Reputation.com ring a bell? The company that was touting their services recently in a CNN article on LA.

I think this post is a good example of making 2 plus 2 equal 5, or at least trying to.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. That was mainly for Maserati's benefit since he decided to try to play games with me. I am surprised you do not include Froome in your theory though.

Hi Jimmy,
Actually, I was trying to stop you playing games - as you were making up things to deflect away from the subject of the thread, Mr Brailsford.

BTW - at any time you wish to answer my question relating to Mr Brailsford (or link to where you claim you previously answered it), please do so.

In a nutshell:

* a skinsuit provides the same advantage as EPO
....

Dear Dear Wiggo (or maybe it should be Dear oh Dear Wiggo)
We will start right here, if you can show where JV made that exact claim, then please do so in any of the JV threads, thanks.

 

[Franklin]

BTW - at any time you wish to answer my question relating to Mr Brailsford (or link to where you claim you previously answered it), please do so.

I have a few months of questions about his opinion of DB being clearly a liar, hiring a dodgy doctor (perhaps two), hiring one dodgy trainer, a dodgy head DS and a dodgy secondary DS. One would wonder if so much of the staff is above any doubt tainted how it relates to either Sky's earlier stance and the fantastic new measures. One could call them a tad "hypocritical" considering they were hired by DB to begin with

I guess hiring these people while you clearly know they are tainted doesn't count as tainting yourself

So far Jimmy hasn't replied what he thinks about these facts, as they obviously make clear that DB has no place in clean cycling

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think Brailsford is doing the right thing, these people doped and have never been punished, it seems fitting that they are now. They were paid a wage as professional cyclists, they won prize money and earnt money through endorsements through cheating and they deceived the fans that cheered them on. They deserve their come-uppance.

Brailsford is also taking a huge risk axing members of Sky's inner-circle if you believe, as many do here, that doping is systematic at Sky in a US Postal model. It leaves Sky very open to whistle-blowers, not the policy you would think that a doping team would go down.

Just sayin'

First page

 

[Dr. Maserati]

First page

We already discussed that post here - but it appears you need to have why it does not address the question shown to - aren't you fortunate I am so patient

I think Brailsford is doing the right thing, these people doped and have never been punished, it seems fitting that they are now. They were paid a wage as professional cyclists, they won prize money and earnt money through endorsements through cheating and they deceived the fans that cheered them on. They deserve their come-uppance.

Brailsford is also taking a huge risk axing members of Sky's inner-circle if you believe, as many do here, that doping is systematic at Sky in a US Postal model. It leaves Sky very open to whistle-blowers, not the policy you would think that a doping team would go down.

Just sayin'

You say Brailsford is "doing the right thing" - and then its all about all the people he sacked.....

It does not address the simple question - which I will repeat for you;
So, why should he not reconsider his position?

Which you claimed you had answerd...
"But still I don't think he should reconsider his position. For reasons I have already stated."

 

[JimmyFingers]

We already discussed that post here - but it appears you need to have why it does not address the question shown to - aren't you fortunate I am so patient


You say Brailsford is "doing the right thing" - and then its all about all the people he sacked.....

It does not address the simple question - which I will repeat for you;
So, why should he not reconsider his position?

Which you claimed you had answerd...
"But still I don't think he should reconsider his position. For reasons I have already stated."

You need to be patient since your style of debate is to bore people to death without saying anything. And my reasons, as I have already stated, is because he is doing the right thing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You need to be patient since your style of debate is to bore people to death without saying anything. And my reasons, as I have already stated, is because he is doing the right thing.

How is dismissing people (yet paying them off) when you should not have hired them in the first place doing the "right thing"?

 

[badboygolf16v]

if you can show where JV made that exact claim, then please do so in any of the JV threads, thanks.

He said it in a TED lecture

17.30 in. I grant you if you're being pedantic he says that the Castelli Speedsuit offers 75% of the benefits of blood doping (15/20W).

Total ****ing bull****.