British politics

[sniper]

Re: Re:

thanks ferryman.

The fact that politicians in the European Parliament receive not only a restitution of travel expenses (which is fair enough) but also quite significant salary bonuses makes me puke so hard that I'll happily pop a bottle for BREXIT, even though I can see the benefits of REMAIN for the economy at large.

Vote according to your family's interests —whether MEPs get bonuses or not should be a secondary concern.

Since my family's interests are not (directly) impacted by the result, such things as salary bonuses become of primary concern.
For me it symbolizes what is wrong with the EU from a governmental pov: it's first and foremost a clique of ambitious carreer makers who look after their own wallet, not of honest politicians representing the interest of the ordinary people.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

For me it symbolizes what is wrong with the EU from a governmental pov: it's first and foremost a clique of ambitious carreer makers who look after their own wallet, not of honest politicians representing the interest of the ordinary people.

Is there such a thing as an honest politician?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

For me it symbolizes what is wrong with the EU from a governmental pov: it's first and foremost a clique of ambitious carreer makers who look after their own wallet, not of honest politicians representing the interest of the ordinary people.

Is there such a thing as an honest politician?

no, of course not

still, this salary bonus system is the single main reason why I don't trust politicians who advocate for REMAIN.
And so it undermines any legitimate arguments he/she may have against BREXIT.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

For me it symbolizes what is wrong with the EU from a governmental pov: it's first and foremost a clique of ambitious carreer makers who look after their own wallet, not of honest politicians representing the interest of the ordinary people.

Is there such a thing as an honest politician?

no, of course not

still, this salary bonus system is the single main reason why I don't trust politicians who advocate for REMAIN.
And so it undermines any legitimate arguments he/she may have against BREXIT.

I gave up on listening to politicians, whether Remain or Leave, a long time ago.

My intention to vote for Remain on 23 June is based on listening to doctors, scientists, businesses and other non-politicians with insight into the issues at stake.

 

[Brullnux]

Jo Cox, Labour MP, shot and stabbed by a man, thought to be a far-right extremist.

 

[Brullnux]

She has died, RIP.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Heart-wrenching.

 

[Avoriaz]

In response to Checkmypecs question, Jo Cox may very well have been one of the few honest politicians.

Such a waste

 

[ferryman]

Re:

In response to Checkmypecs question, Jo Cox may very well have been one of the few honest politicians.

Such a waste

Aye, some pretty moving stuff in the news tonight about her and her family. She seemed like a very decent woman who had a lot to offer both her constituency and Labour in large going forward. EU campaigning suspended Thursday and Friday I think.

 

[lenric]

250 years ago Adam Smith postulated that global trade is the key to economical growth, since it allows countries to specialize and, therefore, improve their productivity. It still is true.

A Brexit isn't the answer. But a revised EU may be part of the answer.

 

[movingtarget]

Interesting article on the referendum

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/german-dominance-remain-eu-referendum-britain-votes-stay

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

Interesting article on the referendum

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/german-dominance-remain-eu-referendum-britain-votes-stay

Britain is no minnow. The only reason France and Germany are the top voices in the EU is because Britain has failed to engage as it should have. Time to remain and engage, then.

 

[Brullnux]

What we need is a top political journalist, not Keunssberg, to interview and destroy every single stupid and ridiculous claim made by both sides a lá Paxman. I, and a lot of their people, have had enough of the lies, hypocrisy and scaremongering. Basically 1 in 2 of the claims made are pure bullsh*t. And they know it. The politicians are delibrately lying to the people en masse to further their careers. This is a knew low even for politicians, because usually they lie for something they believe in, or unknowingly lie.

Take the ever repeated claim that the EU and the eurozone and holding the UK's growth and economy back, and we should release ourselves from the shackles imposed on us. This is a lie. This is not true. In fact, it isn't particularly close to the truth. Gove mentioned it many, many times in his Question Time, and Johnson has done it too as well as all the Leave campaign. This may have been true a year or two years ago but the Eurozone growth rate in the first quarter was 0.6%, and this quarter is predicted to be 0.5%. Not amazing, but not bad by any stretch. The U.K.? 0.4%, and 0.3%. The U.K. is stagnating. The Eurozone is not, in fact it is just starting to pick up. Yet this lie has been repeated and is the most shameless lie of the campaign, as it is so easy to find the truth. Yet, no one has picked up on it. Why? Because no one wants to admit that the eurozone is stronger than us.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

What we need is a top political journalist, not Keunssberg, to interview and destroy every single stupid and ridiculous claim made by both sides a lá Paxman. I, and a lot of their people, have had enough of the lies, hypocrisy and scaremongering. Basically 1 in 2 of the claims made are pure *******t. And they know it. The politicians are delibrately lying to the people en masse to further their careers. This is a knew low even for politicians, because usually they lie for something they believe in, or unknowingly lie.

Take the ever repeated claim that the EU and the eurozone and holding the UK's growth and economy back, and we should release ourselves from the shackles imposed on us. This is a lie. This is not true. In fact, it isn't particularly close to the truth. Gove mentioned it many, many times in his Question Time, and Johnson has done it too as well as all the Leave campaign. This may have been true a year or two years ago but the Eurozone growth rate in the first quarter was 0.6%, and this quarter is predicted to be 0.5%. Not amazing, but not bad by any stretch. The U.K.? 0.4%, and 0.3%. The U.K. is stagnating. The Eurozone is not, in fact it is just starting to pick up. Yet this lie has been repeated and is the most shameless lie of the campaign, as it is so easy to find the truth. Yet, no one has picked up on it. Why? Because no one wants to admit that the eurozone is stronger than us.

Well said, Sir.

 

[blutto]

....sorry to interject into a discussion that is way beyond my pay grade but thought this comment was quite interesting....hope it helps....if not, just flush....

"It’s wrong to view the killing of Jo Cox in isolation.”

…she says, and having quickly and efficiently removed the need to talk about the specifics of the murder, or any of the tragic details, she proceeds to use the killing of a 42 year old mother as a platform for attacking her political opponents and ramming home some Guardianista agenda.

This poor woman was not killed by the apparently mentally ill man, currently in police custody, but by the “mood of the country” in which we are “encouraged to mistrust elected officials”. In a sense, Polly Toynbee says, everyone who doesn’t like the government is responsible for Ms Cox’s death…and especially, of course, all those who want to leave the EU:

https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/17/guardian-wastes-no-time-in-turning-tragedy-into-politcal-capital/

Cheers

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Boris's own father is campaigning for Remain. What an embarassment for BoJo.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/stanley-johnson-my-son-boris-is-wrong-on-brexit-the-eu-is-good-for-the-environment-a3228486.html

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

....sorry to interject into a discussion that is way beyond my pay grade but thought this comment was quite interesting....hope it helps....if not, just flush....

"It’s wrong to view the killing of Jo Cox in isolation.”

…she says, and having quickly and efficiently removed the need to talk about the specifics of the murder, or any of the tragic details, she proceeds to use the killing of a 42 year old mother as a platform for attacking her political opponents and ramming home some Guardianista agenda.

This poor woman was not killed by the apparently mentally ill man, currently in police custody, but by the “mood of the country” in which we are “encouraged to mistrust elected officials”. In a sense, Polly Toynbee says, everyone who doesn’t like the government is responsible for Ms Cox’s death…and especially, of course, all those who want to leave the EU:

https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/17/guardian-wastes-no-time-in-turning-tragedy-into-politcal-capital/

Cheers

Those are the sort of comments that make people loathe politicians and politics in general. Using someone's death for political point scoring is lower than low but then again John McCain and Trump have been doing the same with the Orlando tragedy.

 

[Avoriaz]

Re:

Boris's own father is campaigning for Remain. What an embarassment for BoJo.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/stanley-johnson-my-son-boris-is-wrong-on-brexit-the-eu-is-good-for-the-environment-a3228486.html

So is his sister, Rachel Johnson, and she was part of the In flotilla on the Thames the other day

 

[Avoriaz]

Thursday can't come too soon. The whole debate has been incredibly unedifying, and frankly, I'm ashamed of the whole thing. I don't know what my comrades in other EU countries think, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they just wanted to cast us adrift into the North Atlantic.

Today's ridiculous news is that Baroness Warsi has defected to the Remain camp because she is disgusted at the hate and xenophobia in the Leave camp. Not because she has had some road to Damascus enlightenment that it might actually be preferable to remain. No, she doesn't like the people she was standing alongside, so wants us to stay in something she doesn't want to be part of. Pathetic. There are, as the past few months have shown us, some pretty despicable bottom feeders on both sides of the debate. Whether we stay or go the one constant is that they will still be odious.

For the last forty years the UK has had its chances to sit up front and either drive the EU juggernaut or at least give directions. But no, we chose to sit in the back and moan and gripe. Well only Hightower in Police Academy can actually drive from the back seat.

It's an imperfect organisation, but all organisations are. Personally I find I have more in common with people across other EU countries, than a fair number of my own compatriots. I don't feel the need for sovereignty, and I don't care whose face is on my currency - it's never in my pocket long enough to imprint itself on my soul. It isn't MY country; we are just parasites born onto a stretch of land that may have an arbitrary line drawn on it some time in the past. I want to be able to go where I want when I want, and having taken opportunities to work overseas I fully empathise for those wishing to come to the UK for its opportunities, and I encourage it.

The U.K. Will survive if it leaves - we are pretty good at "making do" - but I don't want to make do, I want to make good, and I want to do it through co-operation and not isolation.

 

[python]

Re:

Thursday can't come too soon. The whole debate has been incredibly unedifying, and frankly, I'm ashamed of the whole thing. I don't know what my comrades in other EU countries think, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they just wanted to cast us adrift into the North Atlantic.

Today's ridiculous news is that Baroness Warsi has defected to the Remain camp because she is disgusted at the hate and xenophobia in the Leave camp. Not because she has had some road to Damascus enlightenment that it might actually be preferable to remain. No, she doesn't like the people she was standing alongside, so wants us to stay in something she doesn't want to be part of. Pathetic. There are, as the past few months have shown us, some pretty despicable bottom feeders on both sides of the debate. Whether we stay or go the one constant is that they will still be odious.

For the last forty years the UK has had its chances to sit up front and either drive the EU juggernaut or at least give directions. But no, we chose to sit in the back and moan and gripe. Well only Hightower in Police Academy can actually drive from the back seat.

It's an imperfect organisation, but all organisations are. Personally I find I have more in common with people across other EU countries, than a fair number of my own compatriots. I don't feel the need for sovereignty, and I don't care whose face is on my currency - it's never in my pocket long enough to imprint itself on my soul. It isn't MY country; we are just parasites born onto a stretch of land that may have an arbitrary line drawn on it some time in the past. I want to be able to go where I want when I want, and having taken opportunities to work overseas I fully empathise for those wishing to come to the UK for its opportunities, and I encourage it.

The U.K. Will survive if it leaves - we are pretty good at "making do" - but I don't want to make do, I want to make good, and I want to do it through co-operation and not isolation.

interesting post..

as an outsider, i dont hold a strong opinion either way, but i am fascinated by the process and, particularly, by the impact if the uk leaves. it will be nowhere nearly as 'fatal' as the doomsayers predict, nor do i see the eu disintegration any time soon, but it'll profoundly affect the geopolitics causing some major realignments both in europe and the world at large.

 

[sniper]

Avoriaz, you make implicit reference to the ones who will benefit most from Remain: those who have travelled, can travel, and want to travel, i.e. middle & upper class.
But it's unclear to me what benefits REMAIN (and the possible susbequent introduction of the Euro) will bring for large parts of the working class.
Meanwhile the candytrips and salary bonuses for the politicians working in the EU will be payed by tax money from the same working class people.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Re:

Thursday can't come too soon. The whole debate has been incredibly unedifying, and frankly, I'm ashamed of the whole thing. I don't know what my comrades in other EU countries think, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they just wanted to cast us adrift into the North Atlantic.

Today's ridiculous news is that Baroness Warsi has defected to the Remain camp because she is disgusted at the hate and xenophobia in the Leave camp. Not because she has had some road to Damascus enlightenment that it might actually be preferable to remain. No, she doesn't like the people she was standing alongside, so wants us to stay in something she doesn't want to be part of. Pathetic. There are, as the past few months have shown us, some pretty despicable bottom feeders on both sides of the debate. Whether we stay or go the one constant is that they will still be odious.

For the last forty years the UK has had its chances to sit up front and either drive the EU juggernaut or at least give directions. But no, we chose to sit in the back and moan and gripe. Well only Hightower in Police Academy can actually drive from the back seat.

It's an imperfect organisation, but all organisations are. Personally I find I have more in common with people across other EU countries, than a fair number of my own compatriots. I don't feel the need for sovereignty, and I don't care whose face is on my currency - it's never in my pocket long enough to imprint itself on my soul. It isn't MY country; we are just parasites born onto a stretch of land that may have an arbitrary line drawn on it some time in the past. I want to be able to go where I want when I want, and having taken opportunities to work overseas I fully empathise for those wishing to come to the UK for its opportunities, and I encourage it.

The U.K. Will survive if it leaves - we are pretty good at "making do" - but I don't want to make do, I want to make good, and I want to do it through co-operation and not isolation.

Excellent post. I lived in England when the Grocer took Britain in, which I firmly believed was the right thing to do at the time. I left the UK almost 30 years ago, since when my views on UK membership can be easiest summed up by the expression, "sh!te or get off the pot". I resent the UK's many 'exceptions', and I resent that the rest of the EU has allowed the UK to bully it into repeated concessions and exceptions.

If the UK votes to stay, which I expect, nothing will change. A Brexit would at least be the more honest and honorable course of action, though I find the leaders of the Brexit movement to be a pitiful and distasteful patchwork of 'little Englanders', and sundry far right whackos.

 

[Avoriaz]

Re:

Avoriaz, you make implicit reference to the ones who will benefit most from Remain: those who have travelled, can travel, and want to travel, i.e. middle & upper class.
But it's unclear to me what benefits REMAIN (and the possible susbequent introduction of the Euro) will bring for large parts of the working class.
Meanwhile the candytrips and salary bonuses for the politicians working in the EU will be payed by tax money from the same working class people.

You see, this is another problem with the campaign: people seeing only what they want to see. You read the post, saw that I worked abroad, and assumed that I was not working class. I wasn't a bricklayer or a barman or a grape picker. The key word which you missed was "opportunity" - being in the EU afforded me the opportunity to do it, as it does all others (otherwise a large part of the In/out debate becomes irrelevant) whether travelling to or from the UK.

One view I hold is actually that membership of the EU is one of the few straws the working classes DO have in their favour in terms of defence of workers' rights and so on. Leaving the EU will enable the UK, for example, to repeal the working hours directive amongst other things. In spite of everything, the EU has a social conscience, Westminster less so.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
You see, this is another problem with the campaign: people seeing only what they want to see. You read the post, saw that I worked abroad, and assumed that I was not working class. I wasn't a bricklayer or a barman or a grape picker. The key word which you missed was "opportunity" - being in the EU afforded me the opportunity to do it, as it does all others (otherwise a large part of the In/out debate becomes irrelevant) whether travelling to or from the UK.

One view I hold is actually that membership of the EU is one of the few straws the working classes DO have in their favour in terms of defence of workers' rights and so on. Leaving the EU will enable the UK, for example, to repeal the working hours directive amongst other things. In spite of everything, the EU has a social conscience, Westminster less so.

well put and point taken.

Still, I would never vote REMAIN not until politicians vow to reject/decline those ridiculous salary bonuses for being a member of EU parliament and traveling to Brussels. (travel expenses, ok, but over-the-top salary bonuses, no way)

 

[Amsterhammer]

*** BREXIT ***
Everything you need to know is right here, courtesy of the extremely wonderful and witty John Oliver. Make sure you watch right to the end.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/20/john-oliver-explains-the-insane-brexit-vote-to-the-rest-of-the-world/