British politics

[Catwhoorg]

But after 2.5 years, they can come up with a meaningful Plan B by Monday ?

 

[macbindle]

Nope. There has to be a shift. It's interesting to see the political manoeuvring today with MPs calling for the PM to rule out 'No deal completely. This is because May is trying to both appease the extreme right wing of her own party by allowing the possibility of a no deal whilst scaring the Remain contingent in parliament with the possibility of a no deal.

 

[movingtarget]

I am watching Yes Minister tonight which seems to edge closer to reality all the time. Cameron's hand in all of this was appalling. Just to dump it all on the next leader and not take part in the process at all was pathetic.

 

[macbindle]

What about Dominic Raab, the former Brexit minister who resigned because he couldn't agree with his own Brexit deal :lol:

Or the post-referendum Shakespearean twist of Gove stabbing Johnson in the back to further his own leadership chances, only for his treachery to result in his own demise. But he's back...standing there yesterday with a thinly-veiled leadership speech presented as support for his leader :lol:

9 years of Tory rule and this is where we are.

 

[King Boonen]

The calls to rule out no deal are about the only concession the other party leaders can realistically get at the moment and as macbindle points out, it's the Government's most useful tool. Europe won't negotiate anymore. If the UK goes back with a deal that significantly benefits them they might accept it, but if I were them I'd be telling the UK that the situation has changed and they need to make sure the deal has passed the House before the EU decide.

 

[macbindle]

Thank god for Gina Miller.

I think, if I've understood correctly, that the very people who were labelling her as a traitor were crowing at the defeat of the government in the vote on May's deal, which wouldn't have happened had it not been for Miller.

 

[King Boonen]

Yes, I think you're correct. I'm pretty sure without her any deal the Government wanted could have been passed because it would have rested on ministers to decide. That's a very good point that should be made much more strongly.

 

[macbindle]

If anything it demonstrates the toxicity of the debate and how it is stoked by parts of the media...who, surprise surprise, tend to be in the Leave faction. It's exactly this kind of emotion-based rhetoric which led to the Leave referendum victory, IMHO, and it is symptomatic of the paucity of political understanding and debate in the country as a whole. The quality of democratic decisions rests on the quality of debate so it is no wonder were are in complete political stasis.

 

[Robert5091]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...te-eu-withdrawal-andrea-leadsom-a8732356.html

Commons leader Andrea Leadsom told MPs they will debate the government’s proposed Brexit next steps on January 29.

“A full day’s debate on the motion will take place on Tuesday 29 January, subject to the agreement of the House.”

The motion will be amendable, meaning it will offer the opportunity for MPs to suggest their own ideas and have them voted on. There are likely to be at least four competing amendments put down.

Jeremy Corbyn will likely table his own, setting out his alternative Brexit vision, and there may also be one from Tory Brexiteers seeking to banish the hated "Irish backstop" from Ms May’s withdrawal agreement.

There could be two further motions facilitating a new referendum, which the Labour MPs plan to stand behind. One could directly demand a new vote, while the other, if tabled, would begin to unlock a longer process.

Jan 29 will seem like a long time away for many.

 

[Robert5091]

and now the yanks are puting the boot in on the toffs - it's just not done! Tsch tsch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

[aphronesis]

Mishra is hardly a yank.

 

[macbindle]

Who cares whether Mishra is a yank or not, it's an awesome piece of writing.

He misses one crucial point though... the role of the proletariat in the Brexit debacle, ever ready to doff their caps at their masters and be tricked into silent and subordinate admiration by a quick demonstration of cultural capital from the likes of Jacob Rees-mogg or Boris Johnson, who make sure they always have some irrelevant and indecipherable classical reference to hand, to impress the ignorant pleb.

I read an interesting statistic last week. 72% of 2+ star generals, and 70% of barristers are drawn from recipients of public schooling. Quite startling when you consider that only 6% of the UK population went to public schools. (for any non-British, public school=private school)

And yet for the British, this complete institutional stitch up doesn't seem to be a problem...

 

[aphronesis]

Easy there. I could not care less what he is. My point was that it’s a superficial undertanding of the US to think there are many native born capable of writing that.

 

[macbindle]

Nor many British. Being in my 6th decade, I'm not sure which generation isn't hamstrung in its consciousness by the seemingly contradictory internalised feelings of imperialistic superiority and post-imperial underdog inferiority, both of which I ascribe to the Brexit victory.

It certainly isn't my generation.

 

[aphronesis]

Probably take a while longer. We see similar death throes playing out with the end of the American dream.

 

[macbindle]

The big orange symptom.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Or a deliberate and concerted campaign. All part of the attempts to snuff out any criticism of Israel, as we enter the endgame where Israel annexes the West Bank for good.

In the UK there is no honest and unbiased reporting on the Israeli occupation and terrorism of the Palestinian people, nor has there been for maybe a decade.

Certain people get very, very angry if you suggest this, yet all the evidence I can find points to that as the main conclusion.

A deliberate and concerted effort to attack corybn/labour, sure. But when you phrase it like that you seem to suggest some sort of international Jewish conspiracy.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Who cares whether Mishra is a yank or not, it's an awesome piece of writing.

He misses one crucial point though... the role of the proletariat in the Brexit debacle, ever ready to doff their caps at their masters and be tricked into silent and subordinate admiration by a quick demonstration of cultural capital from the likes of Jacob Rees-mogg or Boris Johnson, who make sure they always have some irrelevant and indecipherable classical reference to hand, to impress the ignorant pleb.

I read an interesting statistic last week. 72% of 2+ star generals, and 70% of barristers are drawn from recipients of public schooling. Quite startling when you consider that only 6% of the UK population went to public schools. (for any non-British, public school=private school)

And yet for the British, this complete institutional stitch up doesn't seem to be a problem...

Impressively elitist there

 

[macbindle]

@Brullnux

I get where you are coming from, but he's almost certainly not. There are other non-Jewish groups who stand to benefit...not least the Conservative party. The BBC is happy to avoid the issue because they are petrified of losing their funding, other elements of the media peddle an islamophobic line coupled with ideological support for Israel. Naturally pro-Israeli groups, of which there are many actively lobbying in the UK, are delighted.

Finally, it wouldn't be a Jewish conspiracy, it would be a Zionist conspiracy, because there are plenty of Jews who are either anti-Zionist or are unhappy with the behaviour of recent governments of Israel.

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

Who cares whether Mishra is a yank or not, it's an awesome piece of writing.

He misses one crucial point though... the role of the proletariat in the Brexit debacle, ever ready to doff their caps at their masters and be tricked into silent and subordinate admiration by a quick demonstration of cultural capital from the likes of Jacob Rees-mogg or Boris Johnson, who make sure they always have some irrelevant and indecipherable classical reference to hand, to impress the ignorant pleb.

I read an interesting statistic last week. 72% of 2+ star generals, and 70% of barristers are drawn from recipients of public schooling. Quite startling when you consider that only 6% of the UK population went to public schools. (for any non-British, public school=private school)

And yet for the British, this complete institutional stitch up doesn't seem to be a problem...

Impressively elitist there

I would have thought the opposite.

 

[del1962]

the role of the proletariat in the Brexit debacle, ever ready to doff their caps at their master

That does sound a bit elitist, not in a toff way but in an intellectually superior way

Anyway onto the subject in hand, it is difficult to see a way forward, I expect the disastrous no deal is now the most likely outcome, May is proving too inflexible, the government is the only people that can take no deal of the table, they would have to get an agreement to extend the deadline from the EU and put it to a commons vote, they are showing no appetite for that. I don't see without an extension another deal is possible.

 

[Robert5091]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ring-of-resignations-if-he-backs-peoples-vote

Jeremy Corbyn could face up to a dozen resignations from the Labour frontbench if the party backs a second referendum as a way out of the Brexit crisis.

A string of junior shadow ministers have told the Guardian they are strongly opposed to the idea of a second referendum, which they fear would expose Labour to a vicious backlash in leave-voting constituencies.

The development follows another tense day of brinkmanship in Westminster between Theresa May and the Labour leader as they seek a way out of the crisis that has engulfed both major parties.

So Tories & Labour could split in two & a no deal looks likely -

 

[macbindle]

Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ring-of-resignations-if-he-backs-peoples-vote

Jeremy Corbyn could face up to a dozen resignations from the Labour frontbench if the party backs a second referendum as a way out of the Brexit crisis.

A string of junior shadow ministers have told the Guardian they are strongly opposed to the idea of a second referendum, which they fear would expose Labour to a vicious backlash in leave-voting constituencies.

The development follows another tense day of brinkmanship in Westminster between Theresa May and the Labour leader as they seek a way out of the crisis that has engulfed both major parties.

So Tories & Labour could split in two & a no deal looks likely -

The problem is too few MPs want a second referendum, and those that do are split between parties. Secondly, Labour is currently unelectable, and the parliamentary party are at odds with the Corbynite faction of the Labour party membership, so a GE is not a viable way out of this Brexit quagmire.

Only about 80 nutjobs (mostly Tory) want a No deal, so that won't happen either, even though it is the only option if a deal can't be reached. Labour's 'red lines' are unrealistic, and impossible...so no solution there.

What'll happen? I don't know, but probably an extention of A50 and a weary acceptance of some sort of other deal, leaving the nation worse off than it is currently.

 

[macbindle]

Re:

the role of the proletariat in the Brexit debacle, ever ready to doff their caps at their master

That does sound a bit elitist, not in a toff way but in an intellectually superior way

You have to read my post in the context of the article upon which I was commenting. Did you read it? It's about aristocracy...hence my use of proletariat. When you have an Imperialist throwback like Rees-mogg partially steering the destiny of the nation with his 19th century Aristo schtick, it suddenly becomes relevant again. It's a sort of trick, and in a heavily class-bound society such as ours, people respond with deeply internalised notions of their 'natural' place in society and fall for Rees-Mogg's dog whistles.

 

[aphronesis]

Apparently, it is hard to keep a contextual through line from post to post. Easier just to stretch the jaws. Many seem to struggle with it. One can have compassion for the individuals on the ground without negating the historical reality.

Precariat is the more current term but I think UK regs and the deteriorating social net make the term less applicable to Brit citizens than elsewhere in the world.