Brits don't dope?

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

Such interesting allegations of widespread doping are made by some other people too, who write as if they have great insight, knowledge and analytical ability. I suppose when it turns out that you and like minded critics are never shown to have got it right and future cultural historians don't note any such thing everyone will have forgotten this theme and nobody will receive any apology. Nobody is hurt, after all, you may say, by accusations in a section of the forum designed to permit people a unique kind of free speech.

Is it OK to accuse a whole sporting nation (except for the woeful national football team) and thus go far beyond expressing any suspicion that you are entitled to have? Does repetition create factual evidence?

You may want to google "Michael Ashenden". You'll find that his knowledge on doping is pretty much unrivalled.

I hear *** Pound might know a thing or 2 as well .

Nice try with the bluff though. You may have even fooled 1 or 2 people into thinking you knew what you were talking about in that post

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

Such interesting allegations of widespread doping are made by some other people too, who write as if they have great insight, knowledge and analytical ability. I suppose when it turns out that you and like minded critics are never shown to have got it right and future cultural historians don't note any such thing everyone will have forgotten this theme and nobody will receive any apology. Nobody is hurt, after all, you may say, by accusations in a section of the forum designed to permit people a unique kind of free speech.

Is it OK to accuse a whole sporting nation (except for the woeful national football team) and thus go far beyond expressing any suspicion that you are entitled to have? Does repetition create factual evidence?

Well the evidence is there in front of you.

East German/doping coaches employed by TeamGB.

Russian and China are state sponsored doping nations.

Freedom of access to equipment, freedom of access to sports science, technology, yet TeamGB beat 2 big doping nations.

Some would call that case closed.

Others who want to think they are morally superior want definitive proof, ie they want to see the images of the doping, they want to see the blood bags connected to arms, syringes hanging out of torsos, pills bbieng popped, testosterone patches applied etc etc.

That world records were broken, that athletes transformed at late ages, dodgy coaches, corrupt heads of federations, dismissing whistleblowers all point to one thing. Doping. Doesn't matter how money was poured into sport, it still points to doping with a sprinkling ( or large dollop depending on your taste) of corruption.

These are the facts.

I would also repeat my belief that if those British supporters believe their athletes are clean they would not be in the clinic trying to defend what they truly know is not possible without doping. They would be on forums adding to the praise heaped upon their athletes, not here trying so hard to convince themselves it aint so!

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

Such interesting allegations of widespread doping are made by some other people too, who write as if they have great insight, knowledge and analytical ability. I suppose when it turns out that you and like minded critics are never shown to have got it right and future cultural historians don't note any such thing everyone will have forgotten this theme and nobody will receive any apology. Nobody is hurt, after all, you may say, by accusations in a section of the forum designed to permit people a unique kind of free speech.

Is it OK to accuse a whole sporting nation (except for the woeful national football team) and thus go far beyond expressing any suspicion that you are entitled to have? Does repetition create factual evidence?

You have every opportunity to respond with "great insight, knowledge and analytical ability" and yet you don't. The mantra is always the same and is found in the title of this message board: Brits don't dope.

 

[Andy262]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

The mystery in all this is Roy Hodgson. Why did this South London gentleman choose not to dope his players earlier this year? I would love to think he did it out of respect for them as human beings. Secondly, why did the players accept this? I think the players, for their part, were flattered.

There is hope yet for England.

I enjoy your ludicrous assumption that the England football team was crap because they didn't dope. Far more likely they were just crap, period and no amount of PED could possibly change that fact...

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

The mystery in all this is Roy Hodgson. Why did this South London gentleman choose not to dope his players earlier this year? I would love to think he did it out of respect for them as human beings. Secondly, why did the players accept this? I think the players, for their part, were flattered.

There is hope yet for England.

I enjoy your ludicrous assumption that the England football team was crap because they didn't dope. Far more likely they were just crap, period and no amount of PED could possibly change that fact...

I regard it as highly plausible. England doped under Ericsson as Danny Mills revealed and it required good opponents to defeat them. Iceland were simply ridiculous in all games in a manner which arouses suspicion. England were no less suspicious especially against Iceland for completely different reasons.

 

[kwikki]

Did he?

As far as I recall, Mills talked about footballers going abroad for illegal treatments, not as something sanctioned or provided by their teams. Nor did he cite England as a specific example.

He did talk about England providing legal supplements and legal use of cortisone to treat injury.

I think England under Hodgson are *** because they are ***. You could give them a load of dope...they might run around a bit quicker but they'd still be ***.

That the English premiership has featured teams with no English players tells you something about the footballing ability of the English. Dope is irrelevant.

 

[buckle]

Re:

Did he?

As far as I recall, Miller talked about footballers going abroad for illegal treatments, not as something sanctioned or provided by their teams. Nor did he cite England as a specific example.

He did talk about England providing legal supplements and legal use of cortisone to treat injury.

Who is Miller? I referred to Danny Mills, the England full back.

 

[kwikki]

Sorry. Bloody predicted text bollocks changing what I typed.

 

[buckle]

Re:

Did he?

As far as I recall, Mills talked about footballers going abroad for illegal treatments, not as something sanctioned or provided by their teams. Nor did he cite England as a specific example.

He did talk about England providing legal supplements and legal use of cortisone to treat injury.

I think England under Hodgson are *** because they are ***. You could give them a load of dope...they might run around a bit quicker but they'd still be ***.

That the English premiership has featured teams with no English players tells you something about the footballing ability of the English. Dope is irrelevant.

Sums it up really. Well done.

 

[kwikki]

I view it as highly likely that many footballers dope. That in no way contradicts what I've just said.

I think the example of Manchester United with versus without Ferguson shows exactly how much of difference management makes to chances of success. Sure, they are probably doping as a matter of course, but that's just to be able to turn up and play against opponents who dope too.

The winning factor is something else.

 

[ontheroad]

The big story is the unwillingness of the British press to truly attempt to uncover exactly how a nation has transformed its fortunes at Olympic Games. To uncover how a nation up until fairly recently had absolutely no pedigree or history of producing top class cyclists yet now globally dominates the sport to a degree not seen since US postal.

They are a big part of the problem, they just don't want to know.

 

[kwikki]

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

 

[BullsFan22]

If there is one thread here in the clinic that shouldn't go, it's this one. No, it's not because it deals with the British, but because you have the classic yes, classic no, classic arguments, classic retorts, classic deflecting of questions/points, etc. This thread IS THE CLINIC. If anyone ever had any doubts about what is posted in the Clinic, they should just go straight to this thread.

 

[buckle]

If there is one thread here in the clinic that shouldn't go, it's this one. No, it's not because it deals with the British, but because you have the classic yes, classic no, classic arguments, classic retorts, classic deflecting of questions/points, etc. This thread IS THE CLINIC. If anyone ever had any doubts about what is posted in the Clinic, they should just go straight to this thread.

I posited the not unreasonable theory that Hodgson did not dope the players at the Euros and was flamed by the Brits don't dope crowd. I went further and suggested that Iceland were doped to the gills. Therefore England were cheated out of advancement in the tournament. Still I was flamed.

You are right this is the clinic!

 

[kwikki]

Re:

They are a big part of the problem, they just don't want to know.

They want to know. They will be gagging to get an exposure on Sky, or any of the Olympians (except maybe that old *** with the horse).

There are plenty of examples of British media looking to get doping stories (Bonar, the journo who doped and eluded BP tests, the expose on Mo Farah's coach...and by implication Farah)

They want to know. Kimmage wants to know. But just like Kimmage they have nothing to go on. Nothing at all.

Don't kid yourself. The moment there is a sniff of anything they will be there, and as far as Sky are concerned I think it is when not if.

 

[kwikki]

If there is one thread here in the clinic that shouldn't go, it's this one. No, it's not because it deals with the British, but because you have the classic yes, classic no, classic arguments, classic retorts, classic deflecting of questions/points, etc. This thread IS THE CLINIC. If anyone ever had any doubts about what is posted in the Clinic, they should just go straight to this thread.

I posited the not unreasonable theory that Hodgson did not dope the players at the Euros and was flamed by the Brits don't dope crowd. I went further and suggested that Iceland were doped to the gills. Therefore England were cheated out of advancement in the tournament. Still I was flamed.

You are right this is the clinic!

Sorry, just to be clear, if you are referring to me I neither flamed you, nor belong to any 'crowd'.

I gently corrected your misquoting of Danny Mills and I disagreed with your theory and explained why.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

They are a big part of the problem, they just don't want to know.

They want to know. They will be gagging to get an exposure on Sky, or any of the Olympians (except maybe that old *** with the horse).

There are plenty of examples of British media looking to get doping stories (Bonar, the journo who doped and eluded BP tests, the expose on Mo Farah's coach...and by implication Farah)

They want to know. Kimmage wants to know. But just like Kimmage they have nothing to go on. Nothing at all.

Don't kid yourself. The moment there is a sniff of anything they will be there, and as far as Sky are concerned I think it is when not if.

Name one British journalist/tv pundit/commentator who asks the tough doping questions that most casual viewers are asking themselves. I watch sport nowadays constantly asking myself, can I believe what I'm seeing. The media are doing absolutely nothing to address the doubts and scepticism of the watching public. The Olympic Games were a big back slapping exercise for BBC commentators & pundits. I struggle to come up with the name of one journalist who wants to sit down with Farah and ask him the tough but obvious questions for example.

 

[kwikki]

This very question has been answered by me and others before.

This is not how it works. You don't broadcast an international sporting fiesta and sit there sneering in the commentary box. Nobody with any integrity is going to cast aspersions without absolute solid proof. Such proof is not in the hands of commentators. They may know that in principle doping is rife, but when you point a finger you have to point it at someone.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

This very question has been answered by me and others before.

This is not how it works. You don't broadcast an international sporting fiesta and sit there sneering in the commentary box. Nobody with any integrity is going to cast aspersions without absolute solid proof. Such proof is not in the hands of commentators. They may know that in principle doping is rife, but when you point a finger you have to point it at someone.

So based on the above, you would argue, then, that the case of Taoufik Makhloufi demonstrates that some of these commentators have no integrity? I seem to recall a lot of sneering in the commentary box about that.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

This very question has been answered by me and others before.

This is not how it works. You don't broadcast an international sporting fiesta and sit there sneering in the commentary box. Nobody with any integrity is going to cast aspersions without absolute solid proof. Such proof is not in the hands of commentators. They may know that in principle doping is rife, but when you point a finger you have to point it at someone.

So based on the above, you would argue, then, that the case of Taoufik Makhloufi demonstrates that some of these commentators have no integrity? I seem to recall a lot of sneering in the commentary box about that.

TeamBBCBG sneered at the Russians, Semenya, Alyana and many more.....

Hoy/Boardman sneered at other track nations.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

They are a big part of the problem, they just don't want to know.

They want to know. They will be gagging to get an exposure on Sky, or any of the Olympians (except maybe that old *** with the horse).

There are plenty of examples of British media looking to get doping stories (Bonar, the journo who doped and eluded BP tests, the expose on Mo Farah's coach...and by implication Farah)

They want to know. Kimmage wants to know. But just like Kimmage they have nothing to go on. Nothing at all.

Don't kid yourself. The moment there is a sniff of anything they will be there, and as far as Sky are concerned I think it is when not if.

Plenty to go on.

Kimmage has made numerous reference points. Due to libel laws or newspapers lawyers he has not been able to call out doping as fact, but anyone with half a brain knows what Kimmage is alluding too.

Sky, no sniff? No Doping Doctor? No Positive rider, JTL? No rider transformations, Froome? No dominate team trains up mountains? No TeamManager invloved with doping, Yates, Jullich, DeJongh,Knaven and Brailsford? Nope nothing to sniff here, nothing whatsoever!!!

Take Walsh, if he had all the above on Armstrong, boom, 3 books right there!!!

 

[ontheroad]

Not to mention the irony of Radcliffe questioning Ayana's performance.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

No Jamaican has ever won the 60 m indoor world championships (male). Does that mean they aren't dominant at sprinting?

 

[kwikki]

Are they dominating all running?

 

[buckle]

If there is one thread here in the clinic that shouldn't go, it's this one. No, it's not because it deals with the British, but because you have the classic yes, classic no, classic arguments, classic retorts, classic deflecting of questions/points, etc. This thread IS THE CLINIC. If anyone ever had any doubts about what is posted in the Clinic, they should just go straight to this thread.

I posited the not unreasonable theory that Hodgson did not dope the players at the Euros and was flamed by the Brits don't dope crowd. I went further and suggested that Iceland were doped to the gills. Therefore England were cheated out of advancement in the tournament. Still I was flamed.

You are right this is the clinic!

Sorry, just to be clear, if you are referring to me I neither flamed you, nor belong to any 'crowd'.

I gently corrected your misquoting of Danny Mills and I disagreed with your theory and explained why.

No, I was responding to bullsfan22's excellent comment.