Brits don't dope?

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

This very question has been answered by me and others before.

This is not how it works. You don't broadcast an international sporting fiesta and sit there sneering in the commentary box. Nobody with any integrity is going to cast aspersions without absolute solid proof. Such proof is not in the hands of commentators. They may know that in principle doping is rife, but when you point a finger you have to point it at someone.

So based on the above, you would argue, then, that the case of Taoufik Makhloufi demonstrates that some of these commentators have no integrity? I seem to recall a lot of sneering in the commentary box about that.

I think you'll find commentators the world over drew the same conclusions. But hey, let's just make this all about the British. Why not. And yes...Actually I think it did dhow a lack of integrity.

Still it's not as if Makhloufi's former coach has just been arrested or anything. I'm sure why Kerrison gets lead away in handcuffs it won't be hushed up by thd BBC.

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

Such interesting allegations of widespread doping are made by some other people too, who write as if they have great insight, knowledge and analytical ability. I suppose when it turns out that you and like minded critics are never shown to have got it right and future cultural historians don't note any such thing everyone will have forgotten this theme and nobody will receive any apology. Nobody is hurt, after all, you may say, by accusations in a section of the forum designed to permit people a unique kind of free speech.

Is it OK to accuse a whole sporting nation (except for the woeful national football team) and thus go far beyond expressing any suspicion that you are entitled to have? Does repetition create factual evidence?

You seem a fairly intelligent guy, but you do know England are not the 'national football team' of the 'whole sporting nation' you are valiantly trying to defend on here. If you don't, I wouldn't be surprised either.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

This very question has been answered by me and others before.

This is not how it works. You don't broadcast an international sporting fiesta and sit there sneering in the commentary box. Nobody with any integrity is going to cast aspersions without absolute solid proof. Such proof is not in the hands of commentators. They may know that in principle doping is rife, but when you point a finger you have to point it at someone.

So based on the above, you would argue, then, that the case of Taoufik Makhloufi demonstrates that some of these commentators have no integrity? I seem to recall a lot of sneering in the commentary box about that.

TeamBBCBG sneered at the Russians, Semenya, Alyana and many more.....

Hoy/Boardman sneered at other track nations.

Is that any different to RTE?

Because I saw the exact same.

I don't think this is solely exclusive to the British media.

 

[wansteadimp]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

The mystery in all this is Roy Hodgson. Why did this South London gentleman choose not to dope his players earlier this year? I would love to think he did it out of respect for them as human beings. Secondly, why did the players accept this? I think the players, for their part, were flattered.

There is hope yet for England.

For someone with your understanding of sport I find it amazing that you think that Roy would have anything to do with doping the England team. The clubs in the major leagues have the power, pay the million dollar salaries and specify what goes into the players' bodies, not some over the hill gent that gets the players a couple of times a year.

This isn't just an English thing Spain had the best team because Real and Barca were doping their players not the Spanish national team, Germany could run all day because Munich & Dortmund are doping their players.

The more intriguing question is why when Britain is obviously one of the leading doping countries in the world, and has a league awash with cash, why its football clubs have hit reverse in the Champions League, 7 finalists in the 8 years to 2012 none in the last 4 years (and only 2 quarter finalists in those 4 years compared to 10 in the previous 4 years)?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

winded

The brits did not make the rules.The people engage and enable their champions. They wanted Paula. They got Paula, and Mo to boot.

actually.....brits made many of the rules.........

you know? this person is appalled by paula....but don't let that stop ya.....keep

....stereotyping.....

Mark L

Paula being used more as a cypher. She could be anyone. A he. Usain. Phelps. Ledecky.

see: that is how it works. Please give me more credit than distilling this scenario down to two British athletes, that is one's solipsism at play. I do not reduce doping to the domain of one domicile, as much as this would fit other people's transference on me to read me as a raging lunatic and harlequin.

there is method to the madness.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Is that any different to RTE?

Because I saw the exact same.

I don't think this is solely exclusive to the British media.

anyone who was not a WASP or Mick, the Australians felt free to smear.

 

[thehog]

Re:

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

BMX has only been in the Olympics since 2008. Shanaze Reade from Great Britan fairly much dominated the women's events at the Worlds. She also has won gold on the track in the team sprint. In London she crashed in the final missing a medal. She spent most of her career riding against men because she was so good.

Liam Phillips won back to back World Cups in BMX along World Championships in 2013.

BMX is lucrative professionally in the US, so many go to make much more money than the can in a UK track program.

Dame Sarah Storey won several cycling Paralympics medals along with Worlds. She also won gold in swimming.

At 2012 Paraolympics British cyclists won a total of 22 medals, eight of which were gold, to finish top of the cycling medal table. This was two more medals than the team won in Beijing.

Rachel Atherton won gold at the 2013 and 2015 world championships in the MTB downhill, Manon Carpenter won silver in 2015 and gold in 2014 in the downhill.

In the men's MTB Gee Atherton has won several world cups and world championship medals.

The list goes on... sounds to me you didn't really research your statements before putting it out there hoping no one would fact check.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

The mystery in all this is Roy Hodgson. Why did this South London gentleman choose not to dope his players earlier this year? I would love to think he did it out of respect for them as human beings. Secondly, why did the players accept this? I think the players, for their part, were flattered.

There is hope yet for England.

For someone with your understanding of sport I find it amazing that you think that Roy would have anything to do with doping the England team. The clubs in the major leagues have the power, pay the million dollar salaries and specify what goes into the players' bodies, not some over the hill gent that gets the players a couple of times a year.

This isn't just an English thing Spain had the best team because Real and Barca were doping their players not the Spanish national team, Germany could run all day because Munich & Dortmund are doping their players.

The more intriguing question is why when Britain is obviously one of the leading doping countries in the world, and has a league awash with cash, why its football clubs have hit reverse in the Champions League, 7 finalists in the 8 years to 2012 none in the last 4 years (and only 2 quarter finalists in those 4 years compared to 10 in the previous 4 years)?

beat me to it - Hodgson would have had nothing to do with doping as he just inherits pre-doped players. His tactical ineptitude was what cost England the Euros. Exhibit A: Kane taking the corners...

 

[domination]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

Glad we agree that it was achieved with truly amazing amounts of dope.

Damn straight. We can finally agree that, ceteris paribus, Britain is the second greatest sporting nation on earth.

Something Anglophobes and Anglophiles alike can once and for all acknowledge.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

BMX has only been in the Olympics since 2008. Shanaze Reade from Great Britan fairly much dominated the women's events at the Worlds. She also has won gold on the track in the team sprint. In London she crashed in the final missing a medal. She spent most of her career riding against men because she was so good.

Liam Phillips won back to back World Cups in BMX along World Championships in 2013.

BMX is lucrative professionally in the US, so many go to make much more money than the can in a UK track program.

Dame Sarah Storey won several cycling Paralympics medals along with Worlds. She also won gold in swimming.

At 2012 Paraolympics British cyclists won a total of 22 medals, eight of which were gold, to finish top of the cycling medal table. This was two more medals than the team won in Beijing.

Rachel Atherton won gold at the 2013 and 2015 world championships in the MTB downhill, Manon Carpenter won silver in 2015 and gold in 2014 in the downhill.

In the men's MTB Gee Atherton has won several world cups and world championship medals.

The list goes on... sounds to me you didn't really research your statements before putting it out there hoping no one would fact check.

Except the list doesn't go on, does it

If it did you'd have listed it. It's interesting that you've had to bulk out your paragraph with Paralympics. Normally they get ignored.

Methinks you are desperately scrabbling. Now, how about those British Vuelta and Giro winners? That long list of British classic winners? Hmm?

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

The mystery in all this is Roy Hodgson. Why did this South London gentleman choose not to dope his players earlier this year? I would love to think he did it out of respect for them as human beings. Secondly, why did the players accept this? I think the players, for their part, were flattered.

There is hope yet for England.

For someone with your understanding of sport I find it amazing that you think that Roy would have anything to do with doping the England team. The clubs in the major leagues have the power, pay the million dollar salaries and specify what goes into the players' bodies, not some over the hill gent that gets the players a couple of times a year.

This isn't just an English thing Spain had the best team because Real and Barca were doping their players not the Spanish national team, Germany could run all day because Munich & Dortmund are doping their players.

The more intriguing question is why when Britain is obviously one of the leading doping countries in the world, and has a league awash with cash, why its football clubs have hit reverse in the Champions League, 7 finalists in the 8 years to 2012 none in the last 4 years (and only 2 quarter finalists in those 4 years compared to 10 in the previous 4 years)?

beat me to it - Hodgson would have had nothing to do with doping as he just inherits pre-doped players. His tactical ineptitude was what cost England the Euros. Exhibit A: Kane taking the corners...

This would explain the success of the team during qualification I accept that. He had no control over this situation. Yet Danny Mills informed us that Ericsson still doped the players for Japan/Korea. If Hodgson refused to use a program with the agreement of the players and then played a team completely juiced, it might go some way to explain the unusual performance. At what point does dope diminish in its effectiveness when players are on the wagon? That defeat was not just about tactics in my view. There was something strange going on.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

BMX has only been in the Olympics since 2008. Shanaze Reade from Great Britan fairly much dominated the women's events at the Worlds. She also has won gold on the track in the team sprint. In London she crashed in the final missing a medal. She spent most of her career riding against men because she was so good.

Liam Phillips won back to back World Cups in BMX along World Championships in 2013.

BMX is lucrative professionally in the US, so many go to make much more money than the can in a UK track program.

Dame Sarah Storey won several cycling Paralympics medals along with Worlds. She also won gold in swimming.

At 2012 Paraolympics British cyclists won a total of 22 medals, eight of which were gold, to finish top of the cycling medal table. This was two more medals than the team won in Beijing.

Rachel Atherton won gold at the 2013 and 2015 world championships in the MTB downhill, Manon Carpenter won silver in 2015 and gold in 2014 in the downhill.

In the men's MTB Gee Atherton has won several world cups and world championship medals.

The list goes on... sounds to me you didn't really research your statements before putting it out there hoping no one would fact check.

Lol. I'm pretty sure the rest of the top BMX and MTB riders would either be highly amused or deeply offended that those few performances might be considered as domination of their sport by Brits!

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

[quote="

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

The mystery in all this is Roy Hodgson. Why did this South London gentleman choose not to dope his players earlier this year? I would love to think he did it out of respect for them as human beings. Secondly, why did the players accept this? I think the players, for their part, were flattered.

There is hope yet for England.

For someone with your understanding of sport I find it amazing that you think that Roy would have anything to do with doping the England team. The clubs in the major leagues have the power, pay the million dollar salaries and specify what goes into the players' bodies, not some over the hill gent that gets the players a couple of times a year.

This isn't just an English thing Spain had the best team because Real and Barca were doping their players not the Spanish national team, Germany could run all day because Munich & Dortmund are doping their players.

The more intriguing question is why when Britain is obviously one of the leading doping countries in the world, and has a league awash with cash, why its football clubs have hit reverse in the Champions League, 7 finalists in the 8 years to 2012 none in the last 4 years (and only 2 quarter finalists in those 4 years compared to 10 in the previous 4 years)?

beat me to it - Hodgson would have had nothing to do with doping as he just inherits pre-doped players. His tactical ineptitude was what cost England the Euros. Exhibit A: Kane taking the corners...

This would explain the success of the team during qualification I accept that. He had no control over this situation. Yet Gary Mills informed us that Ericsson still doped the players for Japan/Korea. If Hodgson refused to use a program with the agreement of the players and then played a team completely juiced, it might go some way to explain the unusual performance. At what point does dope diminish in its effectiveness when players are on the wagon? That defeat was not just about tactics in my view. There was something strange going on.

likely the players would have been on club programs still (at a guess)?
poor old Roy really didn't appear to know his best xi or how to work rooney, kane and vardy together for starters... the old fella really crumbled when the heat was turned up - just like at pool where the wheels came off as well.
hard to follow and perform for a manager who's confused, seems clueless, doesn't use players to their strengths and isn't exactly inspiring
let's face it, Roy wasn't exactly performing like Conte

 

[simoni]

Just about the only thing positive that could have been said about the euro's was that the team didn't appear particularly physically inferior. (Wilshere excepted who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe at the time, let alone in the squad).

Apart from that they were woefully underprepared tactically, technically and psychologically.

 

[iejeecee]

Re: Re:

This would explain the success of the team during qualification I accept that. He had no control over this situation. Yet Danny Mills informed us that Ericsson still doped the players for Japan/Korea. If Hodgson refused to use a program with the agreement of the players and then played a team completely juiced, it might go some way to explain the unusual performance. At what point does dope diminish in its effectiveness when players are on the wagon? That defeat was not just about tactics in my view. There was something strange going on.

A unusual performance would have been the English making a deep run at the finals of a major tournament.

 

[buckle]

Just about the only thing positive that could have been said about the euro's was that the team didn't appear particularly physically inferior. (Wilshere excepted who shouldn't have been anywhere near Europe at the time, let alone in the squad).

Apart from that they were woefully underprepared tactically, technically and psychologically.

I disagree. I thought England looked knackered against Iceland. Iceland were strong in the last quarter even when beaten heavily by France in the next game. England's record was 1 win, 2 draws and a 1 defeat against moderate opposition (at best). I saw no signs of dissent from the players especially Rooney who was benched in every game except the last when he agreed to go down with the ship. He was totally supportive of Roy and the captain's behaviour was exemplary throughout. Barry Glendenning of The Guardian found the prepared resignation delivered within seconds of the final whistle, peculiar.

Yes, they were underprepared!

 

[The Hitch]

Don't know where the - England national football team don't dope, idea came from but it seems strange to me. Football is like nfl. A sport with 0 real dope testing and therefore everyone can dope, as much as they want, forcing people into a 1990s cycling type dilemma where either you dope or you find another job.

And as long as football maintains the current status quo on doping of absolute governmental, media and player complicity, where not 1 top player is caught, I and many others will continue to assume that doping is somewhere near 100%

 

[wansteadimp]

Re:

Don't know where the - England national football team don't dope, idea came from but it seems strange to me. Football is like nfl. A sport with 0 real dope testing and therefore everyone can dope, as much as they want, forcing people into a 1990s cycling type dilemma where either you dope or you find another job.

And as long as football maintains the current status quo on doping of absolute governmental, media and player complicity, where not 1 top player is caught, I and many others will continue to assume that doping is somewhere near 100%

No one has said they don't dope, the discussion is who is in control of the doping, the clubs or the national team.

When the clubs are ploughing millions of £ into the players and the FA nothing who do you think gets the say about what drugs get taken when.

 

[buckle]

Re:

Don't know where the - England national football team don't dope, idea came from but it seems strange to me. Football is like nfl. A sport with 0 real dope testing and therefore everyone can dope, as much as they want, forcing people into a 1990s cycling type dilemma where either you dope or you find another job.

And as long as football maintains the current status quo on doping of absolute governmental, media and player complicity, where not 1 top player is caught, I and many others will continue to assume that doping is somewhere near 100%

No one doubts that England squads have doped in the past. What prompted this discussion is I posited the argument that under Hodgson, during major tournaments, the team did not dope.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Don't know where the - England national football team don't dope, idea came from but it seems strange to me. Football is like nfl. A sport with 0 real dope testing and therefore everyone can dope, as much as they want, forcing people into a 1990s cycling type dilemma where either you dope or you find another job.

And as long as football maintains the current status quo on doping of absolute governmental, media and player complicity, where not 1 top player is caught, I and many others will continue to assume that doping is somewhere near 100%

No one doubts that England squads have doped in the past. What prompted this discussion is I posited the argument that under Hodgson, during major tournaments, the team did not dope.

But why would they suddenly stop?

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

It is truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65million to have finished 2nd in the Olympic medal table ahead of 2 huge state sponsored doping Nations!

How? The answer is obvious. Doping and lax testing. Probably add in some levels of corruption in certain sports. Look at how the boxing judging went before trying to defend that and how certain tracks events decisions went in favour of GB.

Everyone in the top 10 of the medals table will have access to same equipment, same level of sports science, same style of analysis, same diets, same training facilities, same wind tunnels facilities etc etc

Sport is seriously broken.

So to use your logic Team GB is still the second best sporting nation in the world because everybody is doping, everybody is tested laxly and everybody has complete equal opportunities in all areas.

Truly an amazing feat for a nation of 65 million.

The UK has successfully joined the big league of doping nations. It remains Europe's outlier in that regard. The East Germanisation of British sport will be noted by future cultural historians.

Such interesting allegations of widespread doping are made by some other people too, who write as if they have great insight, knowledge and analytical ability. I suppose when it turns out that you and like minded critics are never shown to have got it right and future cultural historians don't note any such thing everyone will have forgotten this theme and nobody will receive any apology. Nobody is hurt, after all, you may say, by accusations in a section of the forum designed to permit people a unique kind of free speech.

Is it OK to accuse a whole sporting nation (except for the woeful national football team) and thus go far beyond expressing any suspicion that you are entitled to have? Does repetition create factual evidence?

You seem a fairly intelligent guy

At times I know the clinic can get a bit heated, so I would like to take the opportunity to disagree with someone in a civil manner and say to you ferryman that I respect your right to an opinion, but I think that you could not be more wrong.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

Don't know where the - England national football team don't dope, idea came from but it seems strange to me. Football is like nfl. A sport with 0 real dope testing and therefore everyone can dope, as much as they want, forcing people into a 1990s cycling type dilemma where either you dope or you find another job.

And as long as football maintains the current status quo on doping of absolute governmental, media and player complicity, where not 1 top player is caught, I and many others will continue to assume that doping is somewhere near 100%

No one doubts that England squads have doped in the past. What prompted this discussion is I posited the argument that under Hodgson, during major tournaments, the team did not dope.

But why would they suddenly stop?

Hodgson.

These young men live in a world of cnuts and oligarchs. I think Rooney and the senior players liked Roy Hodgson for not being either of one of those so went along with it.

 

[The Hitch]

So Hodgson decided he didn't want to dope a bunch of men who wanted to dope and win, and instead decided he was content with losing his job and going down as one of the worst England managers ever?

 

[buckle]

Re:

So Hodgson decided he didn't want to dope a bunch of men who wanted to dope and win, and instead decided he was content with losing his job and going down as one of the worst England managers ever?

Maybe, just maybe he is a man of principle.

 

[iejeecee]

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.