Brits don't dope?

[simoni]

Re: Re:

Don't know where the - England national football team don't dope, idea came from but it seems strange to me. Football is like nfl. A sport with 0 real dope testing and therefore everyone can dope, as much as they want, forcing people into a 1990s cycling type dilemma where either you dope or you find another job.

And as long as football maintains the current status quo on doping of absolute governmental, media and player complicity, where not 1 top player is caught, I and many others will continue to assume that doping is somewhere near 100%

No one doubts that England squads have doped in the past. What prompted this discussion is I posited the argument that under Hodgson, during major tournaments, the team did not dope.

But why would they suddenly stop?

Hodgson.

These young men live in a world of cnuts and oligarchs. I think Rooney and the senior players liked Roy Hodgson for not being either of one of those so went along with it.

The same players who decided that someone apart from Kane should be taking corners against Hodgson's instruction?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

BMX has only been in the Olympics since 2008. Shanaze Reade from Great Britan fairly much dominated the women's events at the Worlds. She also has won gold on the track in the team sprint. In London she crashed in the final missing a medal. She spent most of her career riding against men because she was so good.

Liam Phillips won back to back World Cups in BMX along World Championships in 2013.

BMX is lucrative professionally in the US, so many go to make much more money than the can in a UK track program.

Dame Sarah Storey won several cycling Paralympics medals along with Worlds. She also won gold in swimming.

At 2012 Paraolympics British cyclists won a total of 22 medals, eight of which were gold, to finish top of the cycling medal table. This was two more medals than the team won in Beijing.

Rachel Atherton won gold at the 2013 and 2015 world championships in the MTB downhill, Manon Carpenter won silver in 2015 and gold in 2014 in the downhill.

In the men's MTB Gee Atherton has won several world cups and world championship medals.

The list goes on... sounds to me you didn't really research your statements before putting it out there hoping no one would fact check.

Except the list doesn't go on, does it

If it did you'd have listed it. It's interesting that you've had to bulk out your paragraph with Paralympics. Normally they get ignored.

Methinks you are desperately scrabbling. Now, how about those British Vuelta and Giro winners? That long list of British classic winners? Hmm?

Well, the list does go on.. If you fact checked your posts you could have just go to the British Cycling website and obtained a full list of medal winners:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/gbcyclingteam/article/Gbrst_gb-cyclingteam-GB-Cycling-Team-Medal-History--0?c=EN

In terms of the Vuelta, no British winner. But they have come 2nd & 3rd in one race in 2011, 4th in 2012 & 2nd 2014.

So across several displines that's one country with a lot of depth with strong results.



As for ignoring Paraolympics? Seriously? You're going the Shane Sutton route on this one?

 

[KyoGrey]

As a non Brit (Spaniard), it is definitely amazing the pace, intensity and speed at which football is played in the Premier League, where almost all capped English players play.

I believe that England's failures in football have more to do with the fact that you simply dont have a very good Team, nor a great mánager, nor a defined game plan or style of play.

Compare this team with the 2006 WC team, for example.

Im aware that the federation and teams like Tottenham are doing some efforts in developing local players, but the dinamic of the money flooded League is to rely on foreign transfers.

P.D: Not saying doping is exclusive to PL.

 

[Nellyspania]

Re:

As a non Brit (Spaniard), it is definitely amazing the pace, intensity and speed at which football is played in the Premier League, where almost all capped English players play.

I believe that England's failures in football have more to do with the fact that you simply dont have a very good Team, nor a great mánager, nor a defined game plan or style of play.

Compare this team with the 2006 WC team, for example.

Im aware that the federation and teams like Tottenham are doing some efforts in developing local players, but the dinamic of the money flooded League is to rely on foreign transfers.

P.D: Not saying doping is exclusive to PL.

You are right; the Premier league has become well known for the very intense pace in matches.

Also only 33% of players in the 2014-2015 season were English, compared with over 60% in Spains top league.

I can't see the situation changing as the EPL is such a huge money making monster with clubs paying more and more for overseas players and managers, with extortionate ticket prices.

And of course, never any doping scandals!

 

[buckle]

Re:

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.

I totally accept the validity of your conclusion. I suspect that Hodgson turned a blind eye in the qualification process for example. It's just that in the tournament proper I have a suspicion that the players agreed not to dope or did not complain when they were not doped. I don't regard this theory as laughable. On the contrary, it logically explains the performance differential between the qualification campaign and the tournament itself.

 

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.

I totally accept the validity of your conclusion. I suspect that Hodgson turned a blind eye in the qualification process for example. It's just that in the tournament proper I have a suspicion that the players agreed not to dope or did not complain when they were not doped. I don't regard this theory as laughable. On the contrary, it logically explains the performance differential between the qualification campaign and the tournament itself.

Or another possible explanation is that with all doping regimes you need a period of abstention in which to allow your body to regulate and reduce the possibility of increasing medical issues.

It just happens that all major tournaments are during the summer when the players are away from their normal club doctors (so dont have access) and are probably on a break in the program so it would make sesne that they are below par.
However this would work for most teams in the tournament

Persaonally I think it is partially that they are not as good as they think and that they are not in their club environment with their club doctors administering there progrms

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

They don't dominate cycling.

What about MTB? What about BMX? What about 2/3 of the GTs? No Brit has ever won the Vuelta or the Giro. What about the Classics? What about track events that aren't Pursuit or mens Sprint? What about Olympic road, men and women? Or Olympic TT?

So 2 riders have won one GT. Some of the track team boss their events. It's hardly domination.

BMX has only been in the Olympics since 2008. Shanaze Reade from Great Britan fairly much dominated the women's events at the Worlds. She also has won gold on the track in the team sprint. In London she crashed in the final missing a medal. She spent most of her career riding against men because she was so good.

Liam Phillips won back to back World Cups in BMX along World Championships in 2013.

BMX is lucrative professionally in the US, so many go to make much more money than the can in a UK track program.

Dame Sarah Storey won several cycling Paralympics medals along with Worlds. She also won gold in swimming.

At 2012 Paraolympics British cyclists won a total of 22 medals, eight of which were gold, to finish top of the cycling medal table. This was two more medals than the team won in Beijing.

Rachel Atherton won gold at the 2013 and 2015 world championships in the MTB downhill, Manon Carpenter won silver in 2015 and gold in 2014 in the downhill.

In the men's MTB Gee Atherton has won several world cups and world championship medals.

The list goes on... sounds to me you didn't really research your statements before putting it out there hoping no one would fact check.

Except the list doesn't go on, does it

If it did you'd have listed it. It's interesting that you've had to bulk out your paragraph with Paralympics. Normally they get ignored.

Methinks you are desperately scrabbling. Now, how about those British Vuelta and Giro winners? That long list of British classic winners? Hmm?

Well, the list does go on.. If you fact checked your posts you could have just go to the British Cycling website and obtained a full list of medal winners:

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/gbcyclingteam/article/Gbrst_gb-cyclingteam-GB-Cycling-Team-Medal-History--0?c=EN

In terms of the Vuelta, no British winner. But they have come 2nd & 3rd in one race in 2011, 4th in 2012 & 2nd 2014.

So across several displines that's one country with a lot of depth with strong results.



As for ignoring Paraolympics? Seriously? You're going the Shane Sutton route on this one?

That's a cheap point, thehog, and actually beneath you.

You have a better game than that, young man.

You could always respond to the post, rather than the normal deflection when large holes are poked through your poor fact checking

Regardless, Froome might win the Vuetla this year. He looks good. That would be domination. If Landa didn't get sick Sky could have been on to win all the 3 GTs in one year, imagine that! Domination!

In this years Vuelta there are 34 French riders, 27 Spanish riders and 21 Belgian, far outweighing the number of Brits and brits are looking for another podium.

Domination.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Not to mention that he could choose to move onto the Giro next season, possibly winning the triple crown in a 12 month period, although not a real calander year but still quite impressive. I don't really think that would happen as he would take himself out of the running to win the following Tour which would be unacceptable to Sky.

 

[iejeecee]

Re: Re:

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.

I totally accept the validity of your conclusion. I suspect that Hodgson turned a blind eye in the qualification process for example. It's just that in the tournament proper I have a suspicion that the players agreed not to dope or did not complain when they were not doped. I don't regard this theory as laughable. On the contrary, it logically explains the performance differential between the qualification campaign and the tournament itself.

I think you put too much into England vs Iceland. Tournaments are largely based on luck, especially once you reach the knockout stage. Is anbody seriously going to argue that Portugal is the best team in europe for example?

So when you have the fact that Iceland is pretty decent, they won their qualifing group easily, beating us twice in the progress for example. And England is a perrenial underachiever for all sorts of different reasons, I don't think the result is that remarkable.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.

I totally accept the validity of your conclusion. I suspect that Hodgson turned a blind eye in the qualification process for example. It's just that in the tournament proper I have a suspicion that the players agreed not to dope or did not complain when they were not doped. I don't regard this theory as laughable. On the contrary, it logically explains the performance differential between the qualification campaign and the tournament itself.

Or another possible explanation is that with all doping regimes you need a period of abstention in which to allow your body to regulate and reduce the possibility of increasing medical issues.

It just happens that all major tournaments are during the summer when the players are away from their normal club doctors (so dont have access) and are probably on a break in the program so it would make sesne that they are below par.
However this would work for most teams in the tournament

Persaonally I think it is partially that they are not as good as they think and that they are not in their club environment with their club doctors administering there progrms

Interesting but it hasn't stopped England coaches doping in the past nor their rivals. Iceland were ridiculous (as were Costa Rica in 2014). Portugal looked doped as did Conte's Italy. That's before considering 'notorious' dopers such as Spain, Germany and France. Iceland, though, went full *** in these recent championships. No wonder England looked second rate.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Not to mention that he could choose to move onto the Giro next season, possibly winning the triple crown in a 12 month period, although not a real calander year but still quite impressive. I don't really think that would happen as he would take himself out of the running to win the following Tour which would be unacceptable to Sky.

That is true. The Tour is far more important than any other race to the Brits. A Tour win is worth 3 Classics and 3 Giros.

The Olympics are probably on par with the Tour in terms of British popularity but they only come around once every four years and generally its a single day win.

I think Froome wants to get multiple Tours, in the 7 range before he'll attempt a Giro/Tour double.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.

I totally accept the validity of your conclusion. I suspect that Hodgson turned a blind eye in the qualification process for example. It's just that in the tournament proper I have a suspicion that the players agreed not to dope or did not complain when they were not doped. I don't regard this theory as laughable. On the contrary, it logically explains the performance differential between the qualification campaign and the tournament itself.

I think you put too much into England vs Iceland. Tournaments are largely based on luck, especially once you reach the knockout stage. Is anbody seriously going to argue that Portugal is the best team in europe for example?

So when you have the fact that Iceland is pretty decent, they won their qualifing group easily, beating us twice in the progress for example. And England is a perrenial underachiever for all sorts of different reasons, I don't think the result is that remarkable.

The contention of this forum is that doping not luck is the driver in modern sport and I agree. What we saw in these championships was a doped team humiliate an opponent. This was a demonstration of the absurdity of modern sport and the truly preposterous advantage doping provides. What's next for the Clinic? Icelanders don't dope?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: Re:

Not to mention that he could choose to move onto the Giro next season, possibly winning the triple crown in a 12 month period, although not a real calander year but still quite impressive. I don't really think that would happen as he would take himself out of the running to win the following Tour which would be unacceptable to Sky.

triple crown: Giro + Tour + Rainbows.

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re: Re:

If you don't have a win at any cost mentality you'll never make it to either a elite level coach in charge of england or a elite level player chosen for their national team. The idea that they would stop doping for some random reason when (in football) there are zero repercussions for doping is laughable.

I totally accept the validity of your conclusion. I suspect that Hodgson turned a blind eye in the qualification process for example. It's just that in the tournament proper I have a suspicion that the players agreed not to dope or did not complain when they were not doped. I don't regard this theory as laughable. On the contrary, it logically explains the performance differential between the qualification campaign and the tournament itself.

I think you put too much into England vs Iceland. Tournaments are largely based on luck, especially once you reach the knockout stage. Is anbody seriously going to argue that Portugal is the best team in europe for example?

So when you have the fact that Iceland is pretty decent, they won their qualifing group easily, beating us twice in the progress for example. And England is a perrenial underachiever for all sorts of different reasons, I don't think the result is that remarkable.

The contention of this forum is that doping not luck is the driver in modern sport and I agree. What we saw in these championships was a doped team humiliate an opponent. This was a demonstration of the absurdity of modern sport and the truly preposterous advantage doping provides. What's next for the Clinic? Icelanders don't dope?

It's England's (their manager/their structure) fault they let that happen, because having the most doped league in the world at home they can't claim innocence. Most of their players also play regularly in the Champions League. They also must be accutely aware there was no problem of "getting caught", as there never is in football (too much money).

As a side note, Italy vs Spain, the italians also looked particularly charged..

 

[Benotti69]

How come the current MTB World Champions were able to focus for the olympics and become olympic champions, unlike those track nations who won World championships but failed to prepare for the olympics? Hmmm, just as well TeamGB did not tell Grant Ferguson their marginal gains secrets or he may have won!

 

[Benotti69]

How come the current MTB World Champions were able to focus for the olympics and become olympic champions, unlike those track nations who won World championships but failed to prepare for the olympics? Hmmm, just as well TeamGB did not tell Grant Ferguson their marginal gains secrets or he may have won!

 

[KyoGrey]

I dont understand what seems so extraordinary about Englands football team failing in an international tournament to suppose they had a medical dísadvantage with respect to rival teams.

Sorry for being so frank.

IMO, the most suspicious team in the tournament was France. Not because they reached the final (before failing miserably in front of their home crowd), but because of the way they phisically imposed their will against rivals, specially against Germany.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Not to mention that he could choose to move onto the Giro next season, possibly winning the triple crown in a 12 month period, although not a real calander year but still quite impressive. I don't really think that would happen as he would take himself out of the running to win the following Tour which would be unacceptable to Sky.

triple crown: Giro + Tour + Rainbows.

Yeah, I was having a brainfart when I wrote that...

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

I dont understand what seems so extraordinary about Englands football team failing in an international tournament to suppose they had a medical dísadvantage with respect to rival teams.

Sorry for being so frank.

IMO, the most suspicious team in the tournament was France. Not because they reached the final (before failing miserably in front of their home crowd), but because of the way they phisically imposed their will against rivals, specially against Germany.

I agree about England football and doping. If the English were doping until the Euro's this summer, why would they all of a sudden stop for the tournament that all of them wanted to perform well in? I've said this before regarding the England team, for them it's not doping, it's simply mental toughness, pressure from the media and unlike teams that have dominated in the past decade or so, Spain and Germany, where the bulk of the team is comprised of Barcelona and Real Madrid players (Spain) and Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund players (Germany), whereas the English team is spread out in the EPL. Sure, you'll have a multiple MAN U or Liverpool or in recent fixtures, Leicester and Tottenham players starting for England, but it's usually a nice mixture of clubs and different styles. That's just how I see it.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

I dont understand what seems so extraordinary about Englands football team failing in an international tournament to suppose they had a medical dísadvantage with respect to rival teams.

Sorry for being so frank.

IMO, the most suspicious team in the tournament was France. Not because they reached the final (before failing miserably in front of their home crowd), but because of the way they phisically imposed their will against rivals, specially against Germany.

Didn't France get more rest-days between matches compared to other countries?

 

[buckle]

Guys you would to have follow my entire comments to get the thread.

Summary:

England under Hodgson had no doping program. Second guessing motives and morals is not my brief. I simply posited the view as a way to explain the disparity in performances between qualification and tournament.

 

[domination]

Re: Re:

As a non Brit (Spaniard), it is definitely amazing the pace, intensity and speed at which football is played in the Premier League, where almost all capped English players play.

I believe that England's failures in football have more to do with the fact that you simply dont have a very good Team, nor a great mánager, nor a defined game plan or style of play.

Compare this team with the 2006 WC team, for example.

Im aware that the federation and teams like Tottenham are doing some efforts in developing local players, but the dinamic of the money flooded League is to rely on foreign transfers.

P.D: Not saying doping is exclusive to PL.

You are right; the Premier league has become well known for the very intense pace in matches.

Also only 33% of players in the 2014-2015 season were English, compared with over 60% in Spains top league.

I can't see the situation changing as the EPL is such a huge money making monster with clubs paying more and more for overseas players and managers, with extortionate ticket prices.

And of course, never any doping scandals!

The English league has been blood and thunder since time began, doping or not. This is not something that has recently become "well known". The misinformation on here is astonishing.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

As a non Brit (Spaniard), it is definitely amazing the pace, intensity and speed at which football is played in the Premier League, where almost all capped English players play.

I believe that England's failures in football have more to do with the fact that you simply dont have a very good Team, nor a great mánager, nor a defined game plan or style of play.

Compare this team with the 2006 WC team, for example.

Im aware that the federation and teams like Tottenham are doing some efforts in developing local players, but the dinamic of the money flooded League is to rely on foreign transfers.

P.D: Not saying doping is exclusive to PL.

You are right; the Premier league has become well known for the very intense pace in matches.

Also only 33% of players in the 2014-2015 season were English, compared with over 60% in Spains top league.

I can't see the situation changing as the EPL is such a huge money making monster with clubs paying more and more for overseas players and managers, with extortionate ticket prices.

And of course, never any doping scandals!

The English league has been blood and thunder since time began, doping or not. This is not something that has recently become "well known". The misinformation on here is astonishing.

Doping is not a recent occurrence either:-

As in Everton's 'school of science' in 1962.

or

Major Buckley at Wolves 25 years before.

http://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/08/05/monkey-glands-and-the-major/

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

The English league has been blood and thunder since time began, doping or not. This is not something that has recently become "well known". The misinformation on here is astonishing.

Although you'd probably be right that pace & intensity was always characteristic of the PL, it was never seen as the primary characteristic.
Afaict, the PL (and british soccer in general) was known first and foremost for brainless kick 'n rush football where you could still break a guy's leg without seeing a yellow card, keepers only played with their hands, etc.

Only in the last decade or so the view of the PL as tactically and technically *** has disappeared (with the exception of the English national squad ), and now it's genuinely known for its pace and intensity compared to other leagues.
All afaict.

 

[simoni]

Re: Re:

...

The English league has been blood and thunder since time began, doping or not. This is not something that has recently become "well known". The misinformation on here is astonishing.

Although you'd probably be right that pace & intensity was always characteristic of the PL, it was never seen as the primary characteristic.
Afaict, the PL (and british soccer in general) was known first and foremost for brainless kick 'n rush football where you could still break a guy's leg without seeing a yellow card, keepers only played with their hands, etc.

Only in the last decade or so the view of the PL as tactically and technically *** has disappeared (with the exception of the English national squad ), and now it's genuinely known for its pace and intensity compared to other leagues.
All afaict.

Can't access the full paper but abstract reproduced below.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/201284956_Comparison_of_physical_and_technical_performance_in_European_professional_soccer_match-play_The_FA_Premier_League_and_La_LIGA

Abstract

The aim of this study was to compare match performance in professional soccer players across two major European championships: Spanish La Liga and English FA Premier League (FAPL). Data were collected using a computerized match analysis system. A total of 5938 analyses were recorded during the 2006–2007 season. The players were classified into six positional roles: central defenders, full backs, central defensive midfielders, wide midfielders, central attacking midfielders, and forwards. The match performance variables analysed included: (i) physical activity – total distance covered, distances covered at high-intensities both with and without possession of the ball; (ii) technical actions – heading and ground duels, passing, time in possession, and ball touches. Comparison of the total distance covered by FAPL and La Liga players showed no difference across individual playing positions but FAPL players generally covered greater distances in sprinting. In contrast, more of the total distance in sprinting was covered by La Liga players when their team was in possession (values from P < 0.05 to P < 0.001), while an equal total sprint distance, irrespective of possession, was observed in FAPL players. La Liga players won more heading duels (49.32% vs. 48.68%) and performed the same proportion of successful passes (76.17%). FAPL wide midfielders had ~20% more ball touches per possession than their La Liga counterparts (2.24±0.54 vs. 2.03±0.55, P < 0.001). In conclusion, our results show that FAPL and La Liga teams present differences in various physical and technical aspects of match-play, suggesting that cultural differences may exist across professional soccer leagues and playing positions.