Parker said:
KJT is there already. A spit away from 6700 already - no one other than Ennis or Schippers if she sticks at it over the next few years will be beating her.
And if Tiffany Porter is world class then your list needs to be a lot longer.
KJT is there already. A spit away from 6700 already - no one other than Ennis or Schippers if she sticks at it over the next few years will be beating her.
And if Tiffany Porter is world class then your list needs to be a lot longer.
Parker said:
Not sure I agree with Tiffany Porter, but Jodie Williams looks like the next Alyson Felix.
Oldcrank my friend, you have forgotten the girls - how could you ? You need to take a leaf out of Brian Cookson OBE's book, he never let's a chance pass now - born again some might say, others might say he only mentions them when he thinks he needs to - damn, that is the cynic in me showing through again - think pure, think white - think the bad days are gone, we are all clean and good now.oldcrank said:
Tessa Sanderson 3 golds including Olympic and Fatima Whitbread, another 2 golds.
I had a very interesting conversation this year with a T&F athlete and event organiser who was able to clearly indicate why Andy Norman was able to get the athletes to his events and get them to cancel appearances elsewhere and thus manipulate the whole T & F scene.
GB T&F Olympic record:
1972 Munich - 1 gold, 1 silver (medalist later sentenced to a 7 year jail term in the USA for the drugs ring he was running - recreational and PED) and 2 bronze
1976 Montreal - 1 bronze.
Moscow 1980 and LA 1984 - bonanza time. So I give you two hypotheses.
a) Despite an apocalyptic arms race on the track between the doping programs of the USA and East & West Germany and Russia, good old fashioned healthy living and a proper training program enabled GB athletes to suddenly show their "juiced-2-the-MAX" rivals a clean pair of heels.
or
b) The coaching staff and athletes wanted to win at all costs, being clean and second was not on their "to do" list.
London, Birmingham, Edinburgh.
There is plenty of evidence out there, but just think about it, how many skeletons would be exposed - just where would this chain of dominoes stop ?
Let's start with a nice bit of straight forward evidence. Walsh put the skids under Lance. Walsh and Kimmage are both alive. Lance sued the Times. Well done the Times, of all the UK papers, they stand out as the journal that are willing to print things that go against the contemporary group think-hug in, "believe, it might be too good to believe, but believe".
Cliff Temple was the chief sports writer at the Times. Have a little read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Temple
Cliff Temple committed suicide.
OK so the WIKI article finishes with a nice little touch, Norman lost his high profile job in UK Athletics soon afterwards.
The Guardian obit on Norman is quite soft but has this gem in it "...... Later that month, in Brussels in a cafe with Neil Wilson of the Daily Mail, Wilson suggested it was "time to lay off" as Temple was in bad shape and suicidal because of his broken marriage, financial difficulties and uncertainty about his post at the Sunday Times. Norman replied: "If there is anything I can do to push him over the edge, I will." Wilson related this conversation when he subsequently gave evidence to the British Athletics Federation inquiry into Norman's activities"
Uh-oh, controlling business interests, bully, not even discrete about his threats to destroy peoples lives - desperate to make money.....hmmm we don't see that in other sports do we ! Nothing like Lance and his sidekicks.
Now remind me what the establishments response to such things is, - ah yes I remember, make a show of sacking and then, once the who-ha had died down, re-appoint them in a role with a different title but doing much the same thing. And Oldcrank my friend don't pretend it doesn't go on in our sport, how about a name that will be very close to your heart - I seem to remember nearly choking on my beer when watching the opening of the 2002 Manchester Commonwealth Games to see Ian Emmerson OBE managing the Queen to her seat and being with her all night. I see he was a director for Glasgow 2014. Such a fine upstanding member of our establishment.
But back to Mr Norman, sacked, so all who came afterwards are not tainted. I think you will find that he continued to act as agent and "fixer" for many athletic careers that followed and was re-employed, albeit it at arm's-length by British Athletics. Now - hmmm, who is beyond reproach? Think - hmmmm, I am trying to think, someone close to God on Sundays - doesn't work on Sundays........... I know got it, Auntie beebb's favourite son. Yes, Jonathan Edwards.
When questioned why he used Andy Norman as his agent through his career he told the journalist - "Andy Norman made me a load of money" well Lance, sorry Jonathan, bless you my son, it is all clear now. [No I am not accusing JE of doping, I don't think he needed to, the fields he was up against were too thin.]
This piece from the editor of Athletics Today is very disturbing and the story could be seen as the prototype for Weisel and Lance
http://www.sportsbooks.ltd.uk/blog/post_details/27_the-death-of-andy-norman
That he finishes with the fact that he did not know that Norman was now working for the IAAF is a little disconcerting. Have a look at this nice obit from the IAAF
http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/athletics-promoter-administrator-and-athlete. Goodness knows, without his premature death, he might have gone on to be president, after all, it is down to the national reps to vote, not an open field.
There are a range of obits out there but rather than quote from the Times, which would be biased, let's try the Independent for a couple of things that would ring true to our sport. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/andy-norman-403506.html
".......Unfettered, his less attractive traits began to emerge. There were suggestions that he could manipulate who would be drug tested at his meetings, and that he even had fellow serving police officers on hand to provide "clean" urine that could be exchanged if a star athlete might be "embarrassed". .....
"..... There were questions asked when a six-figure sum in cash – belonging to the British federation, earmarked to pay overseas athletes – went missing, presumed stolen, from a hotel room in south London and Norman had an ex-colleague based several miles away as the first on the crime scene, rather than unconnected officers from the local police station. The money was never recovered. ......
And of course - as the Lance story showed us, it is not about the bike and it is not about the man, there always has to be a whole web of interlocking tentacles - so as a taster for now, how about the most obvious link the Chief promoter and Athletes agent to Head of Coaching at British Athletics.
Yep sure enough - Frank D ICK was the guy in post and just two weeks after they started an investigation into Norman - Athletics: Upheaval continues as D ick resigns. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...g-warns-of-draconian-budget-cuts-1431373.html (You are going to have to take out that space between "D" and "ick" yourself. I can't get it past the firewall !)
That "draconian budget cuts" was one hell of a smoke screen - got to give it to him, 10 out of 10.
I wonder how Frank D ick got on with his plan to sue the Times over Drew McMaster's confessions http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/D ick-fights-drugs-claim-1580224.html ? (You are going to have to take out that space between "D" and "ick" yourself. I can't get it past the firewall !)(Drew was 4 x 400 team-mate of the Jenkins who had the 7 year jail sentence at the top of my account.) Again, it was the Sunday Times that broke the Drew McMaster expose.
This makes quite a funny story
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-as-Arbeit-pleads-let-bygones-be-bygones.html
So the fact that we have Brad who goes to Guadeloupe with Shane and the boys, wins a few track titles, then prepares for the "greatest win by a Brit cyclist" by a sustained and determined campaign of honing his body to perfection with many months in the boozer getting tanked up and wrecked, is not anything we should be disturbed by. That surely, is not too good to be true, we are told - just good training and "marginal gains".
Justlovely.
Some people believe in unicorns.
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Freddythefrog said:
Nothing to do with the boycotts then. Obviously I couldn't bother reading the rest after you showed yourself to be completely ignorant here but I am sure it was all very interesting. As for showing the doped up Eastern Europeans and Americans a clean pair of heels, let's actually look at the facts.
1980
USSR 15 golds
East germany 11
UK 4
1984
USA 16 golds
UK 3
Oh Bernie - so sorry to upset you
OK so GB were not at the top of the table !
1983 World Champs no boycotts - medal count
1 USA 24
2 Russia 23
3 E Germany 22
4 C'slovakia 9
5 W Germany 8
6 GB 7
When at the last fully attended Olympics GB had a single T&F medal.
The turnaround was beyond anything anyone could imagine. OK so I over-egged it with "showing a clean pair of heels" But this was a doped up World of T&F and a country with a tiny population like CZ and E Germany were not going to take medals on "going to bed early". The same went for GB.
Don't read - nobody is saying you must and there's many a yellow bracelet wearer who would advise that as the very best course of action - and of course add in a personal insult - always the very best way to end a post.
OK so GB were not at the top of the table !
1983 World Champs no boycotts - medal count
1 USA 24
2 Russia 23
3 E Germany 22
4 C'slovakia 9
5 W Germany 8
6 GB 7
When at the last fully attended Olympics GB had a single T&F medal.
The turnaround was beyond anything anyone could imagine. OK so I over-egged it with "showing a clean pair of heels" But this was a doped up World of T&F and a country with a tiny population like CZ and E Germany were not going to take medals on "going to bed early". The same went for GB.
Don't read - nobody is saying you must and there's many a yellow bracelet wearer who would advise that as the very best course of action - and of course add in a personal insult - always the very best way to end a post.
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Freddythefrog said:
Complimenti on that post - some interesting stuff that I am sure the lay person is blissfully unaware of...hard to wade through it though.
Lovin' it !
No idea why he can't get backing to get that medal !
Definitely !del1962 said:TBF Mick McLeod should be given gold in the 10K in 1984
No idea why he can't get backing to get that medal !
Other than one Javelin thrower from 83, I don't think any of the other GB medals are suspicious.
Benotti69 said:Yeah and Freddy posted no facts just loose talk....
My friend your flag waving is too vigorous.
Our friend oldcrank will surely remember an article on a Saturday morning in the Daily Telegraph by Mhir Bose about the BCF and Ian Emmerson OBE. Somehow copies were all outside the rooms of the BCF delegates before they came down for breakfast and National Council later that day.
Spray, rhetoric, I think that is along the lines of how Ian Emmerson OBE described the content.
One dead journalist and his tape recorder left on his desk with the recorded voice of Norman threatening to ruin his career with false sexual allegations. To call that spray and rhetoric is quite some disservice.
And at least they locked Jenkins away in Mojave prison for his part in the production of anabolic steroids in Mexico and illegal import and distribution through the 'states. Somewhat more serious than anything that has happened to Lance, which in my book amounts to selling his personal jet and down-sizing his mansion.
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Freddythefrog said:
In 32 of the last 33 Olympics and World athletics championships, Britain have returned with between 3 and 10 medals. The return from 1983 was exactly what would have been expected. Using an isolated example from a single Olympic Games to illustrate your point makes you look ridiculous. If that is considered to be an insult then I can only apologise.
Freddythefrog said:
I am not British so couldn't care less, but in 1983 the Africans had still not made their full impact felt on distance running. I think the 83 Worlds is when our own Eamonn Coghlan won a title. Back then it was still rare to see an African in a race, now it is rare to see a European in a distance final.
African women only started really coming to the sport in the 90s.
Mo Farah is the current exception but is also from an African background.
Also take into consideration facts like there was a lot less countries competing, one USSR with 3 places whilst there is now 10 or so former Soviet states with 3 places each. Ditto for many other countries.
To be honest, I think British athletics is more or less at the level it always has been. At European level, I would expect them to win a lot but like most other European countries, have been left behind at World level with the influx of 'newer' countries to the international scene.
Bernie's eyesore said:
33 Olympics, so that would include the T & F events of 1908 when the City of London Police won gold beating the City of Liverpool Police in the Tug of War final ! Yep it will sure make sense to include that sort of data in our records. And OK I am not going to argue with you if you have or have not included that but the 1908 Olympics have no relevance as a capability predictor to attainment at contemporary games. Read up a bit of history about them.
As indicated so eloquently by pmcg76's post, it is a transient target, each games is different as nations develop economically such that they can allow their youth to spend time training for the events. Undoubtedly we will see a rise in the attainment of athletes from South America and India over the next few years as well as China diversifying its talent into different disciplines.
I am not going to convince you, just like in 1999, when amongst my cycling friends I was the only one stating that Lance was a fraud and the race was as much a mockery that year as it had been since, as Robert Millar so eloquently put it, "he was climbing mountains and riders with backsides the size of buses were keeping up with him". For the record I went to several Alpine and Pyrenean stages in 1993 and came home and told my mates that what I saw was a complete joke. Romminger, Indurain and others climbing in a manner that was previously well beyond the likes of Merckx and Hinault against the specialists such as van Impe and Millar.
I know with T&F I am shooting Bambi's mum. All those nice homely voices we have learned to like on the BBC.
I have a great deal of difficulty working out which Brits are clean and dirty, from the net I have cast.
Red - sprint boys - Christie and his 'Nuff Respect Group and the prodigy it spawned - all positive.
Red - Orange - Cathy Smallwood - sorry, I know she was the poster girl for British Athletics for a while but her group had too many connections with those who I have been informed to suspect.
Green - Orange Sally Gunnel. The 400m hurdles had only been introduced for women in 1984 so 1992 was the third running. The Soviet Block had collapsed and no doubt its doping and training programs were in complete disarray as well as too many other more attractive things to do for young females, rather than persevere in the perceived low reward activity of athletics. So like JE, the competition was too thin to have a need to dope, success could be achieved without doping.
My theories on individuals and we can all have our own on our own pet T&F stars.
But the situation is, 1976 GB was outclassed. By 1996 at Atlanta again, not a single gold, GB outclassed. The Dublin inquiry, the single public drugs inquiry that has been able to subpoena witnesses, stated that whilst there was facilitated doping in Canada in the 1980s, similar programs were operating in other western countries including the UK with centres in London, Birmingham and Edinburgh. They recorded it not me.
Undoubtedly with the fall of Norman and D ick, this had collapsed by the time of Atlanta.
Does it explain the rise and collapse of British T&F during this time and the mirror I then hold up to British Cycling ? That is where we are all taking up positions.
I look at those Atlanta T&F medals. 0 gold, 3 silver and 2 bronze. Well mofwiw has that 3 out of those 5 are from athletes/teams I have deep in the "red" zone.
The problem is sorting out the clean athletes whilst so many are dirty. We will all pick our favourites, hoping we don't get embarrassed like the yellow wrist band wearers.
If you are like oldcrank, you are cheer-leading for them all - there must be some serious skin invested in that bet and I would not like to be in his shoes. Right now he will be having a queasy feeling in his stomach, like I did on the mountains in 1993. The thousands of us, driving all over europe, waiting for hours on the hill-sides, we are all being taken for mugs, every one of us. "Somebody here is taking the p**s big style, and I am one of those mugs."
Why do I write ? I became a voice of 1 in the early 2000's I ceased going out on any club runs because my voice was different to the song everyone else sang. Cycling in the UK was becoming more popular and Lance was the face on every magazine cover. They were in the majority and I was wrong.
The boot is on the other foot now, but you know what, I can't be bothered to go out on club runs and socialise. The Postie jersey has simply been swapped for Sky.
Do I think all Brits are positive. No, but I am looking damn hard. Norman & D ick, controlling who becomes stars, who has the media attention, who is part of the system, at the heart of the system. Nobody clean is going to be a British Cycling/Sky poster child. That fact is going to be as absolute as will the fact that elite sports will attract coaches and athletes who will think it is ok to do whatever they can to win, whether it be 1908 or 2012.
what do you make of sebastian coe and steve cram?Freddythefrog said:
here's not a bad article by cram on how to improve WADA efforts:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/nov/20/athletics.comment
he's talking the talk.
he's pointing the finger at the USA a lot, schwarzenegger and stallone get honorable mention, but he's largely ignoring the gaping holes in the British ADA system. Otoh, he does notice that
did he walk the walk as an athlete?
Interesting point - I hope others contribute !
Cram - I wobble. Sometimes during his commentaries relating to unbelievable athletes and unbelievable performances, I walk out and turn the telly off. "Come on Steve, at least drop in a clue to let us know that you know this guy is juiced up to the eyeballs!" But he doesn't.
He is on the gravy train, but then otoh, if I was shafted during my career and the Beeb offered me a nice little earner if I just kept in line with their policies of not courting controversy, then maybe I would take it, particularly if I could not position myself to develop anything else outside the sport and that is a genuine issue for lots of athletes. So - don't be harsh on the guy Freddy - and that was a good piece you linked to - and he has done others.
On the track. It's believable, even against the backdrop I have painted. He was outstanding as a teen-ager - remember he made the Olympic final in 1980 as a 19 year old. He is in an event where tactics play a considerable part and had the early experiences to set him further up the tactical learning curve than somebody transforming themselves with something out of a needle in their mid 20's. Many a stronger, juiced up runner is going to be too dumb to be able to cash in on that advantage. His wins were generally carefully crafted, and had an element of well deserved opportunism in each of them. A guy attaining beyond his comparative athletic ability by being smart, but more often it did not come off. So that looks like a believable account in my books. But hey - you guys tell me what you think.
Coe - I haven't got time to construct and represent my arguments today, I'm off now. I didn't mention him earlier for the same reasons I was more easily able to summarise my position on Cram - its complicated. I really would look forward to reading others' arguments here. Again, a master tactician, but how many times did he just smoke them.
sniper said:
Cram - I wobble. Sometimes during his commentaries relating to unbelievable athletes and unbelievable performances, I walk out and turn the telly off. "Come on Steve, at least drop in a clue to let us know that you know this guy is juiced up to the eyeballs!" But he doesn't.
He is on the gravy train, but then otoh, if I was shafted during my career and the Beeb offered me a nice little earner if I just kept in line with their policies of not courting controversy, then maybe I would take it, particularly if I could not position myself to develop anything else outside the sport and that is a genuine issue for lots of athletes. So - don't be harsh on the guy Freddy - and that was a good piece you linked to - and he has done others.
On the track. It's believable, even against the backdrop I have painted. He was outstanding as a teen-ager - remember he made the Olympic final in 1980 as a 19 year old. He is in an event where tactics play a considerable part and had the early experiences to set him further up the tactical learning curve than somebody transforming themselves with something out of a needle in their mid 20's. Many a stronger, juiced up runner is going to be too dumb to be able to cash in on that advantage. His wins were generally carefully crafted, and had an element of well deserved opportunism in each of them. A guy attaining beyond his comparative athletic ability by being smart, but more often it did not come off. So that looks like a believable account in my books. But hey - you guys tell me what you think.
Coe - I haven't got time to construct and represent my arguments today, I'm off now. I didn't mention him earlier for the same reasons I was more easily able to summarise my position on Cram - its complicated. I really would look forward to reading others' arguments here. Again, a master tactician, but how many times did he just smoke them.
Brits just won the overall medal table and most golds at the Euro's. They seemingly got a medal (or two) in every event today. Marginal gains indeed.
And Sir Craig Creedie in charge of WADA.BullsFan22 said:
British sports have a bright future ahead of them.
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sniper said:
Explanation please?
WADA set the policies, they don't enforce them until it comes to CAS and then they don't have much choice as it's out there. I don't really see how Creedie being there is of any greater benefit to British athletes than others.
be more imaginative.King Boonen said:
how did verbruggen/mcuaid benefit usps/lance? they only set the policies.
stutue
BANNED
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sniper said:
I didn't know McQ and Hein were American
Besides, everything has gone tits up for British team Sky since election of British UCI chief, Cookson.
Therefore your argument makes no sense, but then you know that. Corruption is about gaining money......not national pride.
why they suck so hard, we don't know yet.stutue said:I didn't know McQ and Hein were American
Besides, everything has gone tits up for Sky since election of British UCI chief.
Therefore your argument makes no sense, but then you know that.
could be overdoping. could be mcquaid having fun.
but we've learned this season that cookson has sky's back firmly covered.
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