Brits don't dope?

[blackcat]

btw, two of my most favourite people in the world are BoJo and KP.

now, you would not wish to be married to Boris unless you had designs on being the first lady at 10 Downing and did not mind being cuckolded[*sic]

and KP, unless you were a champion like Warne, prolly not wise to be mates with KP.

but both, British geniuses, one quintessentially so.

 

[flying_plum]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that Sky isn't really a British team?

no, just saying, if you wish to suggest a loss of British values over the last decades, you would think a certain Australian with an American passport has his nose in this too. blame him, i invite it.

Aaaah, malign influence, diluting the Britishness. Gotcha! Hahaha. Tbh, I'm not sure that makes a difference - it would be the same if the Yates were found positive. It's the Britishness of the riders themselves, not the team - though I think the British cycling links for Sky enhance the ardent desire to believe.

Edit - just seen your other posts. I completely agree, I wasn't complaining about your memes, just musing on them and the reasons British fans have this attitude/desperate, but strongly held, belief that their athletes don't dope, even when they accept that doping is rife in cycling.

 

[TMP402]

Hugh Carthy

Won the Tour of Korea in 2014, but was not really doing much in races this year until a third place in Colorado two days ago. His previous best result this year was 15th on a stage of Giro del Trentino, which is probably a good result for someone new to the European scene but he's been AWOL on some races where I would think he should have got better results if he's this good in Colorado: 74th overall Volta a Portugal for instance.

http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=171846&season=2015

Am I reading too much into it?

 

[Bronstein]

Re:

Hugh Carthy

Won the Tour of Korea in 2014, but was not really doing much in races this year until a third place in Colorado two days ago. His previous best result this year was 15th on a stage of Giro del Trentino, which is probably a good result for someone new to the European scene but he's been AWOL on some races where I would think he should have got better results if he's this good in Colorado: 74th overall Volta a Portugal for instance.

http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider.php?id=171846&season=2015

Am I reading too much into it?

The field in Colorado seems to be quite weak. No Van Garderen, Horner, Danielson, Dombrowski, Woods, etc. 74th in Portugal is almost irrelevant given that Portugal is the Wild West of Europe (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29966). It's also only his first year racing in Europe at the Pro Continental level. I'd say you're reading too much into it.

 

[Handy Bendy Ghandi]

Re:

Although it's a parody, I think it's also a fairly accurate reason of why Brits have a hard time accepting their athletes dope. After all, a nations athletes are national representatives, reflections of that nation, and the ideals of fair play are very deeply part of certainly English culture (try jumping a queue at the the bus stop and see what happens). For our athletes to dope is basically a denial of them Britishness/Englishness. Of course, it's totally lacking in realism, but influenced by quite integral,parts of our culture, which that public school attitude is alert of (rather than causal, I think). It's also why I think that people would be more upset of doping by wiggins than frogmen - it's basically being less surprising from the latter who isn't 'fully british'....

Sadly, I think this perception of the British psyche is a bit out of date.............ever since the 80s, when Cilla Black dragged Blind Date onto the TV screens and the hyenas in the city were let out of their cage, the main priorities have been the glorification of shallow idiocy and the acquisition of dosh at someone else’s expense. A large proportion of the UK population are more concerned with how much a vacuous bimbo can earn simply for being a vacuous bimbo and what she’s got tattooed on her arse, even though they’re the ones ultimately paying for it……….

Do I sound a bit curmudgeonly…..?

Anyway, I suspect that your average Brit, who’s only been aware that the UK had any cyclists since 2012, wouldn’t be that bothered if it turned out they were doping……………….they’d have still made a fortune and beaten those jealous foreigners who were all at it as well………..

 

[the sceptic]

Radcliffe makes me sick. She's on Armstrong level of sociopathy now.

Sadly I doubt there will ever be any justice. The UKAD will never touch her, and she is protected from the top by Reedie and Baron Coe.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that Sky isn't really a British team? I think people conveniently forget that point. As for my earlier point; I'm not saying that we always DO follow the rules of fair play, but they are an important part of our national psyche and identity, and I think it's part of why people so fervently deny Sky's doping (despite all and any evidence to the contrary). If you want a giggle, there's a brilliant book called 'Watching the English' by Kate Fox, which is sort of anthropology-lite, combining a life time's academic work in a more conversational, easy-to-read edition. She's very funny, and she makes us look completely insane...

edit - to be clear, for the record, I don't think that anything in this culture actually prevents british athletes from doping, just that it goes to some of the explanation of why brits defend their athletes so strongly. it's not because they think they are of some higher moral fortitude, but simply that it just seems so 'un-British', it just doesn't sit comfortably with our sense of national identity.

No it is not British (nor true of any country) to be fair play. That may be some jingoistic myth for the sheep to believe just like some Americans believe they are "the greatest country on earth" but its never been anti British to be a cheat or liar or fraud anymore than any other country.

Lol at the "push in front" analogy. As if, if you push in front of someone in another country that will be widely accepted, but do it in Britain and people will be upset, cos Britain is such a fair and honorable country. lol, what BS.

I don't think your second paragraph makes sense. If it was British to be anti cheat then "the brits" whoever they are, wouldn't defend their athletes purely on the basis that they are British.

to be anti cheating is to oppose cheats. to believe because someone is British they must be clean isn't an anti doping stance. At all.

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that Sky isn't really a British team? I think people conveniently forget that point. As for my earlier point; I'm not saying that we always DO follow the rules of fair play, but they are an important part of our national psyche and identity, and I think it's part of why people so fervently deny Sky's doping (despite all and any evidence to the contrary). If you want a giggle, there's a brilliant book called 'Watching the English' by Kate Fox, which is sort of anthropology-lite, combining a life time's academic work in a more conversational, easy-to-read edition. She's very funny, and she makes us look completely insane...

edit - to be clear, for the record, I don't think that anything in this culture actually prevents british athletes from doping, just that it goes to some of the explanation of why brits defend their athletes so strongly. it's not because they think they are of some higher moral fortitude, but simply that it just seems so 'un-British', it just doesn't sit comfortably with our sense of national identity.

No it is not British (nor true of any country) to be fair play. That may be some jingoistic myth for the sheep to believe just like some Americans believe they are "the greatest country on earth" but its never been anti British to be a cheat or liar or fraud anymore than any other country.

Lol at the "push in front" analogy. As if, if you push in front of someone in another country that will be widely accepted, but do it in Britain and people will be upset, cos Britain is such a fair and honorable country. lol, what BS.

I don't think your second paragraph makes sense. If it was British to be anti cheat then "the brits" whoever they are, wouldn't defend their athletes purely on the basis that they are British.

to be anti cheating is to oppose cheats. to believe because someone is British they must be clean isn't an anti doping stance. At all.

You should maybe try standing in line in China and see if you get served . Or India. Or Italy. Or France, in certain circumstances. There are other countries where queuing is the norm, but there are plenty more where it isn't.

As for nationalism, that is normal. There are very few countries where it isn't (Germany...surprisingly). My husband used to swear blind that Australian sportsmen would never cheat in any way as fair play is such an integral part of the culture. This phenomenon isn't exclusive to the Brits.

 

[the sceptic]

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

 

[sniper]

Re:

...

 

[the sceptic]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

If you think there is something factually wrong in my post feel free to correct it.

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

Without wishing to get into forum politics, or indeed supporting a troll if that is what the sceptic is, I've got to say that I think there is some truth in what the sceptic says.

I say that as an outsider having lived in the UK for some time. There isn't the innate anti-authoritarianism or distrust that you find in France, Spain and Italy. In fact, from what I can tell Brits tend to trust authority. That again, is not that unusual. The nearest neighbour, Eire, is still in thrall to the Catholic church in spite of the recent revelations of the most horrific abuse.

 

[Texeng]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

If you think there is something factually wrong in my post feel free to correct it.

Where to start: Brits and media? In my experience there are (as in most countries) a diverse range of attitudes and media outlets. Why is Sky a myth? That would be your opinion shared by others here and not a fact. Unless there is proof that they are "unclean" then the real myth is that Sky are doping.
I also remember it was mainstream media (BBC) that questioned whether anti-doping is effective (Panorama). Not sure that Pravda would challenge in the same way. Sunday Times working with ARD to investigate IAAF another example.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

If you think there is something factually wrong in my post feel free to correct it.

Where to start: Brits and media? In my experience there are (as in most countries) a diverse range of attitudes and media outlets. Why is Sky a myth? That would be your opinion shared by others here and not a fact. Unless there is proof that they are "unclean" then the real myth is that Sky are doping.
I also remember it was mainstream media (BBC) that questioned whether anti-doping is effective (Panorama). Not sure that Pravda would challenge in the same way. Sunday Times working with ARD to investigate IAAF another example.

Be careful man , that's truths and facts you just brought into the discussion.

 

[the sceptic]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

If you think there is something factually wrong in my post feel free to correct it.

Where to start: Brits and media? In my experience there are (as in most countries) a diverse range of attitudes and media outlets. Why is Sky a myth? That would be your opinion shared by others here and not a fact. Unless there is proof that they are "unclean" then the real myth is that Sky are doping.
I also remember it was mainstream media (BBC) that questioned whether anti-doping is effective (Panorama). Not sure that Pravda would challenge in the same way. Sunday Times working with ARD to investigate IAAF another example.

Diverse range of attitudes? That is very far for the truth I'm afraid. Team Sky is covered in the british media as a totalitarian state would cover it's leader. Complete and total obedience. They never question anything, and keep repeating obvious propaganda without critical thinking. If there was anything like "diverse range of attitudes" they would also write about the negative aspects of Team Sky, which would be extremely easy to do. People do it all the time elsewhere.

And yes, Team Sky is a myth. When you lie and contradict yourself as much as they do there is no other word for it. Sorry to break it to you.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

If you think there is something factually wrong in my post feel free to correct it.

Where to start: Brits and media? In my experience there are (as in most countries) a diverse range of attitudes and media outlets. Why is Sky a myth? That would be your opinion shared by others here and not a fact. Unless there is proof that they are "unclean" then the real myth is that Sky are doping.
I also remember it was mainstream media (BBC) that questioned whether anti-doping is effective (Panorama). Not sure that Pravda would challenge in the same way. Sunday Times working with ARD to investigate IAAF another example.

Sky dont have any interests in athletics so quite easy for to go after something that doesn't affect their investment. It also them patting themselves on the back.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that Sky isn't really a British team?

no, just saying, if you wish to suggest a loss of British values over the last decades, you would think a certain Australian with an American passport has his nose in this too. blame him, i invite it.

Nah, he doesn't change values he is just interested in making money which is why he gives the public what the public wants, tits, sex lives of the famous and football

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

Without wishing to get into forum politics, or indeed supporting a troll if that is what the sceptic is, I've got to say that I think there is some truth in what the sceptic says.

I say that as an outsider having lived in the UK for some time. There isn't the innate anti-authoritarianism or distrust that you find in France, Spain and Italy. In fact, from what I can tell Brits tend to trust authority. That again, is not that unusual. The nearest neighbour, Eire, is still in thrall to the Catholic church in spite of the recent revelations of the most horrific abuse.

Probably the differences between the countries you mentioned and Britain is due more to recent past than anything else, (effects of Franco. Mussolini and possibly Vichy Govt), but the greater respect for authorities doesn't take away from the fact that the original statement was arrant nonsense

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

If you think there is something factually wrong in my post feel free to correct it.

Where to start: Brits and media? In my experience there are (as in most countries) a diverse range of attitudes and media outlets. Why is Sky a myth? That would be your opinion shared by others here and not a fact. Unless there is proof that they are "unclean" then the real myth is that Sky are doping.
I also remember it was mainstream media (BBC) that questioned whether anti-doping is effective (Panorama). Not sure that Pravda would challenge in the same way. Sunday Times working with ARD to investigate IAAF another example.

Sky dont have any interests in athletics so quite easy for to go after something that doesn't affect their investment. It also them patting themselves on the back.

The Sunday Times reporting on athletics has nothing got to do with Sky. This was done by their investigation insight team. Jonathan Calvert and George Arbuthnott who have worked on this aren't even designated sports journalists. This is one small part of their own portfolio. It was the same with Calvert and Heidi Blake on the FIFA files story last year. In the past, the two of them have been on the end of a libel case regarding their reporting on donations to the Conservative party. Criticise Matthew Syed or whoever you wish to about their coverage on Sky, but there is no connection to this. This is to be judged on it's own merits.

I don't think there was anything easy in going after athletics when a governing body is threatening an injunction against you from reporting the story.

As I said before, this is the real brave work that deserves recognition, and it was anything but that with much of what we saw in the Tour.

 

[The Hitch]

All credit is erased the moment you write " Bolt and Farah emerge as clean". You either do it right, or not at all, and defending the money making stars while going after the no names, is not the right way.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

Without wishing to get into forum politics, or indeed supporting a troll if that is what the sceptic is, I've got to say that I think there is some truth in what the sceptic says.

I say that as an outsider having lived in the UK for some time. There isn't the innate anti-authoritarianism or distrust that you find in France, Spain and Italy. In fact, from what I can tell Brits tend to trust authority. That again, is not that unusual. The nearest neighbour, Eire, is still in thrall to the Catholic church in spite of the recent revelations of the most horrific abuse.

Oddly I seem to encounter constant criticism specifically of Rupert Murdoch and his newspapers/business interests.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

british people are so used to the upper class setting the agenda that they never question anything they are being told by authorities. Probably the main reason why so many people eat up the Sky myth and why the media can get away with being a british version of the Pravda.

Another troll in the Brits forum looking for a reaction to sweeping generalisations, how unusual

Without wishing to get into forum politics, or indeed supporting a troll if that is what the sceptic is, I've got to say that I think there is some truth in what the sceptic says.

I say that as an outsider having lived in the UK for some time. There isn't the innate anti-authoritarianism or distrust that you find in France, Spain and Italy. In fact, from what I can tell Brits tend to trust authority. That again, is not that unusual. The nearest neighbour, Eire, is still in thrall to the Catholic church in spite of the recent revelations of the most horrific abuse.

Having lived in several European countries (including Ireland (nobody calls it Eire) I agree to an extent. Ireland is no longer controlled by the Church however and the abuse stories are exaggerated. It suits the British media to attack the institutional Church.

 

[the sceptic]

Re:

All credit is erased the moment you write " Bolt and Farah emerge as clean". You either do it right, or not at all, and defending the money making stars while going after the no names, is not the right way.

If they want to investigate they should start at home with Baron Coe and Radcliffe.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

All credit is erased the moment you write " Bolt and Farah emerge as clean". You either do it right, or not at all, and defending the money making stars while going after the no names, is not the right way.

If they want to investigate they should start at home with Baron Coe and Radcliffe.

They can't go after Radcliffe by name. This was released to them by the whistleblower on condition of no names mentioned.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

All credit is erased the moment you write " Bolt and Farah emerge as clean". You either do it right, or not at all, and defending the money making stars while going after the no names, is not the right way.

If they want to investigate they should start at home with Baron Coe and Radcliffe.

Zebadeedee recently pointed out that Coe's dad, Peter Coe, was a successful athletics coach in the 80s.
I just checked Peter Coe's Wikipedia, and it's quite instructive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Coe
He didn't like Seb Coe's initial trainer/training, and so decided to introduce Seb to German training methods.
Peter Coe was particularly inspired by a certain Woldemar Gerschler, head of the Freiburg Institute for Physical Training, part of the Freiburg university and coach of several world champions at the middle distances.
If you wanna know what Gerschler and his institute were all about, read for instance this link:
http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=5292
As you see, already in the 50s Gerschler's team were pioneering doping research

Oskar Wegener, ein junger Leistungssportler und Medizinstudent aus Gerschlers Trainingsgruppe erarbeitete zwischen 1952 und 1954 seine Dissertation an dem Institut Reindells mit dem Titel „Die Wirkung von Dopingmitteln auf den Kreislauf und die körperliche Leistung". ["The effects of doping products on the blood circulation and physical achievement"

And go back even further:

Trio Harbig/Gerschler/Reindell schon 1939 mit dem Mittel Pervitin experimentiert und so einen neuen Raketentreibstoff gefunden hatte." ["Already in 1939 the trio Harbig/Gerschler/Reindell had been experimenting with Pervitin, with which they'd found a new rocket fuel"

In 1964, there is an interview with Gerschler, and one excerpt goes like this:

ZEITUNG hat den Leiter des Instituts für Leibesübungen an der Universität Freiburg, Direktor Waldemar [Woldemar] Gerschler, gefragt:
Ist Doping eine Gefahr?
GERSCHLER: "Nein, darin sehe ich keine Gefahr."
[QS: "Is doping dangerous?" Gerschler: "No, I don't see any dangers"

That guy was Peter Coe's main inspiration.

edit: More about Gerschler here (in English): http://cyclingheroes.tripod.com/cyclingheroes.english2/id617.html