Brits don't dope?

[del1962]

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Of course they are two sides of the same coin. Top riders, top teams, same ***. Are you surprised?

By the way, have you managed to find any evidence from Italian and Spanish media sources to back up your claim that their reporting of doping issues is markedly different to that of the British media?

Or are you letting it drop?

Nah I would not if I was him or her. Anyhow I thought it was common knowledge that most "cycling" countries have more open minds and reporting when it came to the PEDS but the USA was and still is a different story even after LA. I can't speak for da UK reporting on cycling but I would imagine it is similar to the USA. I mean those guys have push bikes after all.....like seriously wtf???

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

For the moment the British are enjoying great success in cycling whilst pretending they are clean and "ZTP". That's why its easy to make fun.

And that is certainly a good point, and one which I agree with.

Where we differ (I think) is that I think everyone else is pretending to be clean too. Astana are much more successful than Sky, they even joined MPCC. If that isn't pretending to be clean, I don't know what is...and then they were kicked out.

Sky never even made the pretence of joining.

Sky went one better, claiming that they didn't even need to, they're so squeaky cleanz...

 

[thehog]

Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Where does Wash come from?

 

[Sciatic]

Re: Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Where does Wash come from?

I don't think,where he comes from is as relevant as where his money comes from . . .

 

[gooner]

Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Of course they know.

They can pull the wool over someone else.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Where does Wash come from?

The land of never ending BS

Remember the old paceline forums circa 2000?
Even the ones desperate to see anyone expose Lance called BS on Walsh's shoddy research and outright fabrications.

The man has two goals in mind. Money and success. What he has to do or say to achieve them is irrelevant to him. Anything goes.

I'm still waiting to see how he'll spin Sky signing Landa after all the bile he spewed at Astana's Giro. (No, not really, I know quite well he's just going to be completely silent on it).

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

The land of neverending ***.

Remember the old paceline forums circa 2000?
Even the ones desperate to see anyone expose Lance called BS on Walsh's shoddy research and outright fabrications.

The man has two goals in mind. Money and success. What he has to do or say to achieve them is irrelevant to him. Anything goes.

I'm still waiting to see how he'll spin Sky signing Landa after all the bile he spewed at Astana's Giro. (No, not really, I know quite well he's just going to be completely silent on it).

Just another 'naive' mistake by Brailsford. Like Rogers, Yates, Leinders, Knaven, etc.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Just to be clear then, since the thread is about is: Great Britain is made up of three countries, England Scotland and Wales. The United Kingdom also includes Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland is not part of Britain in any way. David Walsh is from the Republic of Ireland and isn't British. Quite cranky anyone who follow cycling and doesn't know David Walsh is Irish is either trolling or a moron.

I think if you are going to have a thread about the British you are best knowing who the British are rather making excuses for your ignorance, like I see above.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

So somehow we are worse dopers than other nationalities, because we like to think our athletes are clean, because our media portrays our athletes as clean, and because as the Empire crew we sit around in our Pith helmets espousing British superiority. My point is we're no better or worse than any other country, and that if people were exposed to more of other country's media and sports coverage then this skewed opinion wouldn't be so prevalent. Except it probably would still be there in a different form.

Or, each nation that has had their time to shine has protected their own via attempting to control the narrative, whether it be protectionist in the form of direct intervention (Spain 90s-early 00s), politically charged persecution narratives (East Germany and the USSR 70s-80s), shouting down dissenting voices that challenge the feelgood narrative (Germany 90s), deliberately straying away from testing (Jamaica) or a combination of all of the above (USA 80s-90s-early 00s). Success breeds resentment, and domination breeds antipathy. People who are extremely successful will always divide the audience, and the more successful they are the more polarized that response will be. Especially when the narrative that is chosen to justify it comes across to many as arrogant and - if it turns out the Emperor is, as everybody suspects, naked - hypocritical, which means people want that narrative to be shown up as the BS they suspect it is. That's why Armstrong being brought down was so much bigger than bringing down so many other sportsmen, and it's why Radcliffe is a bigger story than many of the other potential British doping names being pointed at.

Oh, and you have the issue that people's constant bashing at the populist British and tabloid media "holier than thou" defence has led to a second line of defence in the form of the persecution complex, which also breeds antipathy from a different direction. At this point they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. They're also hurt by being the first of these real national wave of success stories to take place after the real takeoff of social media, because it's so much harder to control the story now, as we found in the Tour, when the fans' refusal to believe in Froome became a story in and of itself.

Great post as ever, rational, logical, informative. Are you sure you are in the right place?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There's no discernible difference between any of those countries. The way Walsh carries on he may as well be a Brit. He's as British as his buddy Froome at any rate. And he is the loudest proclaimer of the cleanliness and believability of the Brit team Sky.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Err no he's not, Froome is a British citizen, Walsh is an Irish citizen, Froome has British parents, and grew up in Africa. Walsh has Irish parents and grew up in Ireland. Completely different and at this point I think you are just being wilfully ignorant.

Tell a few Irish lads they are British and see what happens.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

There's no discernible difference between any of those countries. The way Walsh carries on he may as well be a Brit. He's as British as his buddy Froome at any rate. And he is the loudest proclaimer of the cleanliness and believability of the Brit team Sky.

Sorry can't help but re-visit this, it's akin to telling a Belgian he's French, or a Dutchman he's German, or a Norwegian he's Danish, or saying to an Australian he's a Kiwi. Why not? The accents are similar, they look the same...

 

[Savant12]

Re:

Err no he's not, Froome is a British citizen, Walsh is an Irish citizen, Froome has British parents, and grew up in Africa. Walsh has Irish parents and grew up in Ireland. Completely different and at this point I think you are just being wilfully ignorant.

Tell a few Irish lads they are British and see what happens.

No, no, no! Let him allow his logic to ebb and flow.

Australia - the descendants of British convicts. British flag on their flag. As good as British!
USA - the descendants of British colonials. Red, white and blue on their flag. May as well be British.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

Err no he's not, Froome is a British citizen, Walsh is an Irish citizen, Froome has British parents, and grew up in Africa. Walsh has Irish parents and grew up in Ireland. Completely different and at this point I think you are just being wilfully ignorant.

Tell a few Irish lads they are British and see what happens.

No, no, no! Let him allow his logic to ebb and flow.

Australia - the descendants of British convicts. British flag on their flag. As good as British!
USA - the descendants of British colonials. Red, white and blue on their flag. May as well be British.

True enough: Australians and Americans, both British. Canadians too, and Kiwis, all British. Speak the same language don't they? Look the same too. Quod erat demonstratum

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Err no he's not, Froome is a British citizen, Walsh is an Irish citizen, Froome has British parents, and grew up in Africa. Walsh has Irish parents and grew up in Ireland. Completely different and at this point I think you are just being wilfully ignorant.

Tell a few Irish lads they are British and see what happens.

No, no, no! Let him allow his logic to ebb and flow.

Australia - the descendants of British convicts. British flag on their flag. As good as British!
USA - the descendants of British colonials. Red, white and blue on their flag. May as well be British.

Exactly. The only difference is an accent, otherwise we're all the same.

So to say anything in this thread is racist is silly. Plain and simple.

 

[gooner]

Re:

There's no discernible difference between any of those countries. The way Walsh carries on he may as well be a Brit. He's as British as his buddy Froome at any rate. And he is the loudest proclaimer of the cleanliness and believability of the Brit team Sky.

He's not. End of.

Keep digging.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure what the point is here but from what I can tell so far - "Brits don't dope" the thread topic is false in my opinion.

To be very fair Most Merikans who might have a clue who David Walsh is would suspect he was British and they would not have a clue he is Irish.

It's called 'Brits don't dope?' with a question mark. I think the question mark makes the difference in that it's not a statement that 'Brits don't dope', but a facetious question.

Clearly Brits do dope,

It's taken many years, but im glad you finally aknowledge this.

My point is we're no better or worse than any other country

And you are right on that.

Thing is though, that right there IS the clinic view. I dont know where you got the idea from that the clinic is a group that thinks all British people are bad in the same way patriots think all British people are good. Judging by your repeated use of "empire crew" which is something only Blackcat says, it seems to be one poster.

We are almost all post nationalist. We don't care where someone is from. It's all people.

The dishonest people at the top of British sport aren't dishonest because they are British but because they are corrupt, morally and literarly. These people exist everywhere in the world.

there are some very bad and corrupt hombres in the Italian and Spanish federations and there is corruption there and there are journos every bit as bad as the British ones.

Our argument all along has been precisely this, in the face of small number of people, behind a slightly larger number of accounts, who insist that sociological realities don't apply to their country

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

The land of neverending ***.

Remember the old paceline forums circa 2000?
Even the ones desperate to see anyone expose Lance called BS on Walsh's shoddy research and outright fabrications.

The man has two goals in mind. Money and success. What he has to do or say to achieve them is irrelevant to him. Anything goes.

I'm still waiting to see how he'll spin Sky signing Landa after all the bile he spewed at Astana's Giro. (No, not really, I know quite well he's just going to be completely silent on it).

Convenient for you that you didn't join forum till 2013 so we can't verify whether you voiced the same opinions pre reasoned decision

Anyway in my opinion this post says more about you than anything else

That's a lot of words to say nothing

No it says your post is full of bs

I was trying to be tactful in the presence of someone trying to discuss my personal history.
Which as a moderator pointed out yesterday in regards to Benotti, is not allowed by the rules here.

I'm not sure what the point is here but from what I can tell so far - "Brits don't dope" the thread topic is false in my opinion.

To be very fair Most Merikans who might have a clue who David Walsh is would suspect he was British and they would not have a clue he is Irish.

It's called 'Brits don't dope?' with a question mark. I think the question mark makes the difference in that it's not a statement that 'Brits don't dope', but a facetious question.

Clearly Brits do dope,

It's taken many years, but im glad you finally aknowledge this.

My point is we're no better or worse than any other country

And you are right on that.

Thing is though, that right there IS the clinic view. I dont know where you got the idea from that the clinic is a group that thinks all British people are bad in the same way patriots think all British people are good. Judging by your repeated use of "empire crew" which is something only Blackcat says, it seems to be one poster.

We are almost all post nationalist. We don't care where someone is from. It's all people.

The dishonest people at the top of British sport aren't dishonest because they are British but because they are corrupt, morally and literarly. These people exist everywhere in the world.

there are some very bad and corrupt hombres in the Italian and Spanish federations and there is corruption there and there are journos every bit as bad as the British ones.

Our while argument all along has been precisely this, in the face of small number of people, behind a slightly larger number of accounts, who insist that sociological realities don't apply to their country

Go away with your sanity and logic

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

I'm not sure what the point is here but from what I can tell so far - "Brits don't dope" the thread topic is false in my opinion.

To be very fair Most Merikans who might have a clue who David Walsh is would suspect he was British and they would not have a clue he is Irish.

It's called 'Brits don't dope?' with a question mark. I think the question mark makes the difference in that it's not a statement that 'Brits don't dope', but a facetious question.

Clearly Brits do dope,

It's taken many years, but im glad you finally aknowledge this.

My point is we're no better or worse than any other country

And you are right on that.

Thing is though, that right there IS the clinic view. I dont know where you got the idea from that the clinic is a group that thinks all British people are bad in the same way patriots think all British people are good. Judging by your repeated use of "empire crew" which is something only Blackcat says, it seems to be one poster.

We are almost all post nationalist. We don't care where someone is from. It's all people.

The dishonest people at the top of British sport aren't dishonest because they are British but because they are corrupt, morally and literarly. These people exist everywhere in the world.

there are some very bad and corrupt hombres in the Italian and Spanish federations and there is corruption there and there are journos every bit as bad as the British ones.

Our while argument all along has been precisely this, in the face of small number of people, behind a slightly larger number of accounts, who insist that sociological realities don't apply to their country

Sorry but while that's a lovely story and you may believe that applies to yourself, that is certainly not my experience of posting here for several years. The term 'empire crew' was merely a symbol, there are many occurrences of prejudice towards the British on this board. During the 2012 Olympics is was particularly virulent. Also huge amounts of misinformation, stereotyping, Brit bashing, Brit baiting and general demonising of British morals and motives, as pervasive if not more so than anyone posting on here about British superiority, which actually I can't really remember seeing. Often those posters are referred to in absentia, apparently reside over at bikeradar or some other forum, but used to justify whichever diatribe the poster in the mood for about British culture, people or sportsman. And as shown by the fact both DW and Hog have said David Walsh is British, those diatribes are often based on complete ignorance.

And I've never said 'Brits don't dope'. Ever.

 

[Mortimer]

I don't often post here, took me year to even register, but I wonder if we are beginning to reach some sort of agreement? Tyler's comment in his book is relevant: "I've known really nice guys who doped, and people of questionable personality who were clean". I don't think nationality comes into it, or even personality. Some are clean - some aren't (this group is possibly a bigger number).

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Where does Wash come from?

The land of neverending ***.

Remember the old paceline forums circa 2000?
Even the ones desperate to see anyone expose Lance called BS on Walsh's shoddy research and outright fabrications.

The man has two goals in mind. Money and success. What he has to do or say to achieve them is irrelevant to him. Anything goes.

I'm still waiting to see how he'll spin Sky signing Landa after all the bile he spewed at Astana's Giro. (No, not really, I know quite well he's just going to be completely silent on it).

Very true.

The current logic is you can't criticize Walsh if you didn't criticize him during the Armstrong era.

However, knowing what we know now and how Walsh back stabbed Ballester, we know DW will do whatever it takes to make money. I don’t think we can trust a word that he writes. He was much better when Ballester was doing the actual research.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Where does Wash come from?

The land of neverending ***.

Remember the old paceline forums circa 2000?
Even the ones desperate to see anyone expose Lance called BS on Walsh's shoddy research and outright fabrications.

The man has two goals in mind. Money and success. What he has to do or say to achieve them is irrelevant to him. Anything goes.

I'm still waiting to see how he'll spin Sky signing Landa after all the bile he spewed at Astana's Giro. (No, not really, I know quite well he's just going to be completely silent on it).

Very true.

The current logic is you can't criticize Walsh if you didn't criticize him during the Armstrong era.

However, knowing what we know now and how Walsh back stabbed Ballester, we know DW will do whatever it takes to make money. I don’t think we can trust a word that he writes. He was much better when Ballester was doing the actual research.

You can criticize him but not by revisionism.

The work with Pierre was a collaboration. To say Walsh did little is plain selective ignorance. I don't even think Ballester would say that.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

You would expect most clinic regulars to know where Walsh comes from.

Where does Wash come from?

The land of neverending ***.

Remember the old paceline forums circa 2000?
Even the ones desperate to see anyone expose Lance called BS on Walsh's shoddy research and outright fabrications.

The man has two goals in mind. Money and success. What he has to do or say to achieve them is irrelevant to him. Anything goes.

I'm still waiting to see how he'll spin Sky signing Landa after all the bile he spewed at Astana's Giro. (No, not really, I know quite well he's just going to be completely silent on it).

Very true.

The current botlogic is you can't criticize Walsh if you didn't criticize him during the Armstrong era.

However, knowing what we know now and how Walsh back stabbed Ballester, we know DW will do whatever it takes to make money. I don’t think we can trust a word that he writes. He was much better when Ballester was doing the actual research.

You can criticize him but not by revisionism.

The work with Pierre was a collaboration. To say Walsh did little is plain selective ignorance. I don't even think Ballester would say that.

I criticized Walsh during the Armstrong era a lot. Said his writing was poor which it still is and that he often drew the conclusion first then tried to find evidence to match.

Without Ballester Walsh is just a poor writer, rather than a poor writer with a good researcher.

 

[oldcrank]

Re: Re:

Err no he's not, Froome is a British citizen, Walsh is an Irish citizen, Froome has British parents, and grew up in Africa. Walsh has Irish parents and grew up in Ireland. Completely different and at this point I think you are just being wilfully ignorant.

Tell a few Irish lads they are British and see what happens.

No, no, no! Let him allow his logic to ebb and flow.

Australia - the descendants of British convicts. British flag on their flag. As good as British!
USA - the descendants of British colonials. Red, white and blue on their flag. May as well be British.

Convicts were transported to what is now the USA for 150 years
before the first convict was sent to the Land Down Under, but
American school children are taught they were political and
religious dissenters, or so I have been told by an American
educator.